Insane private school fees.

steddyeddy

Mr.S wrote: »

In more or less words, yes.

Plenty of students in my (private school) did **** in exams. Totally depends on what attitude you have, and sure - in private schools you get access to more resources that can aide you to do better in your education.

That isn't to say that just because your in a public school, your at a disadvantage?

No but a clever person in a public school well have a harder time of it than someone in a private school. (depends on the school in both cases of course.) I'll add that your attitude can be shaped by your teachers. One teacher told me I was brilliant and I believed it. Others who were far smarter than me heard they would never go to college and believed it. Encouragement matters hugely.

steddyeddy

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Do you think your success at secondary and third level had anything to do with your upbringing and support from home where you where taught the importance of education? Or should I assume that your parents 'bought' you your leaving cert and college entry.

Well my parents didn't take an interest in my education so no I got no support really. I was unusual because I self taught myself a lot of science ect and used that to supplement my teacher's lack of effort. No I didn't go to private school. I suppose my unique self achievement makes me question people who get handed access to top schools.

shruikan2553

twinytwo wrote: »

Actually it can make a massive difference... i was lucky enough to do my leaving in a private school after having spent 4 years in a state school.

The problem is with state schools is that you cant get rid of useless teachers or throw out problem students who have no interest in being there but have no problem wrecking it for everyone else.

Yes the private school cost a nice chunk of money, but I got access to some of the best teachers in the country. The entire mind set is different, from everyone wants to be there to the teachers going the extra mile. It is something I will forever be gratefull for.

In my school we were split into classes based on previous results. Problem students existed but they werent in the honours classes so the students aiming to do well in the LC ran into no problems.

They do have access to better facilities in private schools but access to them and using them effectively are two different things. Many people I know who did grinds for the LC didn't do any better than those who didnt despite having the extra resources.

ProfessorPlum

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually some schools don't offer the option to do higher level in some subjects or the same range of modern languages.

You don't seem to understand my argument. Hint it's not money=leaving cert points. It's that the school makes a huge difference to how a person is educated.

As for DEIS schools a large number of students from DEIS school are entering third level education and doing brilliantly. So they are benefiting from increased teacher student ratio. They can't however get rid of sub par teachers with the same efficiency that private schools do.

Schools don't have to offer higher level - a student can ask for whatever paper he wants. Private schools don't often offer a vast range of subjects - they tend to be smaller, and therefore have less teachers and so can't offer as broad a range as many state schools.
Look there are lots of factors that come into play. The child own attitude to learning is by far the most important, and that attitude is generally informed by their parents. Some kids are self motivated in this regard - like you, but it's is less common. After that, other factors come into it. The quality of the school being one. It doesn't really matter if it's a private school or a great state school. If the ethos is towards achievement and not crowd control, children will do better.
My fear is that if we decide to pull state funding to private schools, the public system will be further stretched and standards will drop. The only people who can afford the new private schools will be the super rich, and we will end up with with a super elite class (like the Eton and Harrow old boys club) and from there we will see our future 'captains of industry' being plucked. Private school in the uk, at least the super elite ones the OP refers to, is not about exam results (there's plenty if private tutoring available that would be a lot cheaper). It's about access to the super elite class and the contacts and 'leg up' it provides. I wouldn't like to see this country go the same way.

Icemancometh

animaal wrote: »

There are plenty of ways in which people accept the services provided by the state, but add to them using private funds. I don't see a problem with this.

Are you ok with people accepting the state contributary pension, but also having a private pension? Or people being able to call the Gardai after a burglary, even though they have a monitored alarm system? Or people who own a car being able to buy tickets on the (state-subsidised) public transport system?

The state is supposed to be more than a big mechanism for the transfer of wealth to those who have less. It's also supposed to provide services to its citizens.

Kids who go to private schools get a better start in life than kids who go to public schools. Now obviously this isn't true in each and every case, but it is true on the whole. This gives these kids an advantage over less fortunate children. This exists in pretty much every society, and there's nothing you can do to stop the injustice of the less well off being disadvantaged at the start of life compared to those with more resources. But the state shouldn't encourage it, particularly in what we call a republic.

Just as an example, I checked out the Supreme Court on wikipedia (figured no better example of privilege than this!) Of the 11 judges, wikipedia only has details on the secondary educations of 6. 4 of these are fee-paying.

Vinnie L

A kid born in Ireland has a better life opportunity if he wants it, than a kid born in Africa.

A hard working kid that finds himself in a private school has a better life opportunity than a hard working kid in a public school.

A arse hole or a waster in either type of school, will always be an arse hole or a waster regardless of what school they went to.

byhookorbycrook

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Nevertheless, they do.

Dubious, actually, some private schools refuse children with special needs, have parents who pay fortunes for grinds and the so-called league tables do not take certain colleges into account for stats purposes.

animaal

Icemancometh wrote: »

But the state shouldn't encourage it, particularly in what we call a republic.

And the state doesn't; it provides less funding to fee-paying schools than it does to non-fee-paying schools.

jellyytots

I am very lucky to work in a DEIS Band 1 school. I only have 22 pupils and the school is a state of the art spacious building. The kids want for nothing, they get free meals throughout the day and are really proud of their school. It's amazing how much a nice environment and support can change attitudes towards learning. I have friends who work in wealthy areas, don't even have a PE hall and have ratios of up to 35:1

Chinasea

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Dubious, actually, some private schools refuse children with special needs, have parents who pay fortunes for grinds and the so-called league tables do not take certain colleges into account for stats purposes.

Absolutely, and the likes of Scoil Lorcáin in Monkstown ethos is: special needs, non-natives NEED NOT apply.

evolving_doors

Chinasea wrote: »

Absolutely, and the likes of Scoil Lorcáin in Monkstown ethos is: special needs, non-natives NEED NOT apply.

Where does it state this?

evolving_doors

Mr.S wrote: »

In more or less words, yes.

Plenty of students in my (private) school did **** in exams. Totally depends on what attitude you have, and sure - in private schools you get access to more resources that can aide you to do better in your education.

That isn't to say that just because your in a public school, your at a disadvantage?

Interestingly, because of the difference in PTR some 'non fee charging schools' are in a better position resources wise by devolving from the fee charging aspect...

look at the school in Kilkenny which 'went public'... it got to keep and take on extra teachers + the yearly buildings allowance grant + an allocation for learning support ... none of which they would have gotten from 'private fees'. And, as they were probably heavily focused on academic sucess I can probably hazzard a guess that their numbers are well up this year (with the resources that follow the numbers).

So if we want a truly divided sector we as citizens are going to have to pay for the devolution of the current fee-charging system.. plus the ultra elitism that will be needed to justify the 40k fees for totally private schools (with no monies from the state).

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Dubious, actually, some private schools refuse children with special needs, have parents who pay fortunes for grinds and the so-called league tables do not take certain colleges into account for stats purposes.

Hmm I think they could never outright refuse admission though as they'd be legally in very troubled water...

Missyelliot2

jellyytots wrote: »

I am very lucky to work in a DEIS Band 1 school. I only have 22 pupils and the school is a state of the art spacious building. The kids want for nothing, they get free meals throughout the day and are really proud of their school. It's amazing how much a nice environment and support can change attitudes towards learning. I have friends who work in wealthy areas, don't even have a PE hall and have ratios of up to 35:1

My own children are in schools where there is a ratio of 32:1. I teach in DEIS school where class sizes are 22-25:1 - with SNAs in all rooms.
The kids also get free lunches, fantastic facilities etc.....which is great.

I object to people deriding fee paying school attendees - we have made huge sacrifices to send our children through the private school system. I have told my kids, that all I can offer them is a good education-the rest is up to them.

jobbridge4life

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

My tax isn't benefiting me in a lot of cases but I still have to pay .I'm indirectly funding all schools in this country. I've no children so therefore I'm just educating the little ****ers that will be competition for my job in a few years time.Should I be allowed to complain about this or should I accept that you have to pay tax whether or not you get the benefit out of it.

Try live in a country with uneducated masses and see whether you still don't think you get a benefit from public education even sans children.

steddyeddy

I can't agree with social Darwinism however it's wrapped up. The income of your parents shouldn't be allowed to give you an academic advantage over others. I just can't see why a standardised test should be exempt from standardisation. It's ant competitive.

VinLieger

steddyeddy wrote: »

I can't agree with social Darwinism however it's wrapped up. The income of your parents shouldn't be allowed to give you an academic advantage over others. I just can't see why a standardised test should be exempt from standardisation. It's ant competitive.

Is this just a problem with the state subsidy or do you disagree with a private school who receives no subsidy whatsoever participating in the leaving cert as well?

SaveOurLyric

steddyeddy wrote: »

The income of your parents shouldn't be allowed to give you an academic advantage over others.

Why not ?

byhookorbycrook

Armelodie wrote: »

Hmm I think they could never outright refuse admission though as they'd be legally in very troubled water...

http://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/new-entry-rules-will-prevent-schools-from-cherrypicking-pupils-29544181.html

Mr Quinn said the draft proposals will also look to improve the situation for children with learning difficulties.
“Parents of children with learning difficulties encounter ‘soft’ barriers, suggestions to the effect of ‘well look we’d love to take your child here but really they’re better off in another school’.

Interesting to read in the papers this weekend that past pupils of some private fee paying schools are looking to challenge the new guidelines legally.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/exrock-and-belvo-pupils-urged-to-rise-up-over-ban-30655206.html

steddyeddy

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Why not ?

Because we end up with a distorted view of who is academically gifted. Two people do the same test with different variables such as class size and you can't get an accurate result. It goes against scientific method.

SaveOurLyric

steddyeddy wrote: »

Because we end up with a distorted view of who is academically gifted. Two people do the same test with different variables such as class size and you can't get an accurate result. It goes against scientific method.

Its not a scientific method. Its a competition.
Whatever method or resource at your disposal that you exploit in order to succeed is fair game. It that includes the wide variety of advantages that rich parents gives someone, then why not.

ProfessorPlum

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/new-entry-rules-will-prevent-schools-from-cherrypicking-pupils-29544181.html

Mr Quinn said the draft proposals will also look to improve the situation for children with learning difficulties.
“Parents of children with learning difficulties encounter ‘soft’ barriers, suggestions to the effect of ‘well look we’d love to take your child here but really they’re better off in another school’.

Plenty of state schools engage in the same soft barrier methods.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Because we end up with a distorted view of who is academically gifted. Two people do the same test with different variables such as class size and you can't get an accurate result. It goes against scientific method.

No two schools are the same. DEIS schools therefore must have an advantage because of class sizes and other issues. That put kids in other schools with larger class sizes (eg private schools) at a disadvantage.

steddyeddy

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Plenty of state schools engage in the same soft barrier methods.




No two schools are the same. DEIS schools therefore must have an advantage because of class sizes and other issues. That put kids in other schools with larger class sizes (eg private schools) at a disadvantage.

It does indeed. So you'll agree that the closer we get to standardisation the more accurate the result?

steddyeddy

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Its not a scientific method. Its a competition.
Whatever method or resource at your disposal that you exploit in order to succeed is fair game. It that includes the wide variety of advantages that rich parents gives someone, then why not.

Because we're determining who will make the best scientists, doctors or lawyers. The attribute we're testing for is intelligence or academic ability. I don't agree with getting away from that fact with using your parents relative wealth.

SaveOurLyric

steddyeddy wrote: »

Because we're determining who will make the best scientists, doctors or lawyers. The attribute we're testing for is intelligence or academic ability.

Not really. Its a competition for who gets the best jobs in society, not who would get them if everyone competed under the same conditions.

steddyeddy

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Not really. Its a competition for who gets the best jobs in society, not who would get them if everyone competed under the same conditions.

So it's not a test of the people with the best ability in your opinion? You want your doctor to be someone who had the best resources growing up not necessarily the most gifted clinician.

shruikan2553

steddyeddy wrote: »

I can't agree with social Darwinism however it's wrapped up. The income of your parents shouldn't be allowed to give you an academic advantage over others. I just can't see why a standardised test should be exempt from standardisation. It's ant competitive.

Is it only money that matters? Should I be banned from helping my children with their maths or physics homework? Not every child has a parent who works in an area with a strong connection to some of their subjects, making sure my child gets to do honours maths means an extra 25 points and an advantage over the other children.

SaveOurLyric

steddyeddy wrote: »

So it's not a test of the people with the best ability in your opinion? You want your doctor to be someone who had the best resources growing up not necessarily the most gifted clinician.

They are not exclusive. Many factors influence who turns out to be the most gifted clinician. If the most gifted one is so because he had the best resources growing up, I dont really care. He is still the best.

VinLieger

steddyeddy wrote: »

So it's not a test of the people with the best ability in your opinion? You want your doctor to be someone who had the best resources growing up not necessarily the most gifted clinician.

Well in most cases someone who is not gifted enough in a field like medicine will be weeded out through the harsh college courses.

I think in fact our system is inherently flawed in the way that people who get 600 points automatically go for medicine as that's what people who get 600 points do, but they may not necessarily be suited to be doctors at all

evolving_doors

steddyeddy wrote: »

It does indeed. So you'll agree that the closer we get to standardisation the more accurate the result?

The only 'scientific' standardisation we can get is if all schools in Ireland are compelled to instigate

Gender Quotas
SEN quotas
Socio Economic background quotas
Traveller quotas
Ethnicity quotas
Geographical quotas
A ban on students getting grinds/revision courses
A shut down of grind schools/fee charging schools

... and all schools would have to divest to 'state run' as opposed to the voluntary system.

And all the constitutional changes that would be undertaken to facilitate this.

Then maybe we could talk about leveling the playing field.
Don't get me wrong though, it's a Utopia to aspire to but I don't see any 'real' desire for this to happen in the political sector.

As far as Ruairi Quinn tackling the enrolement procedures... I'll see it when I believe it .. from what I gathered from the Independant Article on Cherry Picking he's against everything (which is all noble in a champagne socialist kind of Ruairi way) but the only tangible mention of an alternative seems to be... enrollment by lottery. It seems to be still in operation in Limerick but it takes siblings and catchment area etc. into account so not a 'true' lottery in the sense.

As things stand in education, we are still waiting to hear the results from the legendary questionnaires on school uniforms handed out to parents!!. Does Jan O' Sullivan have the inclination to tackle the other stuff above? At the mo. it's just going to be about money/budgets and fighting with the teaching unions over student assessment in the new JC. All the rest is sabre-rattling.

The whole fee charging schools debate has ground to a halt in Ireland. The dept knows it can't afford any more fee charging schools 'going public'. To say that tax payers are subsidising it is ludicrous. In our school if it went public I'd be delighted.... I'd be moved onto dept. pay and pension, increment, class sizes would get smaller, resources for SEN would at least double.