Advice for Carrauntoohil

Alun

Generally speaking though, in most cases, even if those involved have been reckless, irresponsible, badly prepared or just plain stupid, the emergency services, both voluntary and full-time will respond, they'll not turn round and say "Sorry, you're on your own", that's the kind of people they are.

You can never completely remove any risk, but I believe it's not only my own responsibility to me and my family, but also my responsibility to those who might be called upon to rescue me if something did go wrong, to minimize those risks.

Climbing a 1000m mountain when there's a well advertised red weather warning out for gale force winds doesn't class as minimizing risk in my book, I'm afraid.

falan

jimd2 wrote: »

So by your warped and twisted logic the idiot that needed to be rescued on the mountain were doing the kerry mountain rescue a favour by having an accident and therefor increase the funding over normal funding (which btw you and I have to pay for).

That has to be one of the most bizarre and twisted pieces of logic i have ever heard and it's very dangerous too.

I suppose you also believe the the scouts that went on to the rocks in hook head were within their rights and that the incident will help the funding of the rescue services (which did a great job btw)! That poor girl was only new into the scouts and that was also madness.

I agree with the suggestion that people pay in cases where they have been warned about a storm, fair enough other times of the year an accident can happen in "normal" circumstances.

I also think that these groups that end up needing rescue in these storm circumstances should be named and shamed. It should be similar to drink driving in peoples attitudes to these people.

Sorry but you have no clue what you are talking about. As previously stated i spent a lot more time in Irish mountains and rivers these last few months than you have your entire life. These mountain rescue lads live for the outdoors.
Here's just one example of a man who doesn't mind being on call at Christmas. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/working-for-christmas-dublin-wicklow-mountain-rescue-dont-mind-being-on-call-at-christmas-373031.html.

Alun wrote: »

Generally speaking though, in most cases, even if those involved have been reckless, irresponsible, badly prepared or just plain stupid, the emergency services, both voluntary and full-time will respond, they'll not turn round and say "Sorry, you're on your own", that's the kind of people they are.

You can never completely remove any risk, but I believe it's not only my own responsibility to me and my family, but also my responsibility to those who might be called upon to rescue me if something did go wrong, to minimize those risks.

Climbing a 1000m mountain when there's a well advertised red weather warning out for gale force winds doesn't class as minimizing risk in my book, I'm afraid.

There wasn't a red weather warning at 2pm yesterday. It was yellow. Ok for hill walking with the correct experience/gear.

bucketybuck

unkel wrote: »

You don't know the details. People can get injured in any weather conditions.

What a completely pointless non-sequitur. Yes people can get injured in any weather condition, how the hell does that mean these people weren't idiots for going up during a storm like this?

People can have car accidents at any time, that doesn't mean somebody is not an idiot for drink driving.

At least its not the dumbest thing I have read today.

falan wrote: »

The mountain rescue want to be out.

This is the dumbest thing I have read today.

Alun

bucketybuck wrote: »

This is the dumbest thing I have read today.

I agree. It all sounds a bit Walter Mitty'ish to me. MRT members, or the ones I know at least, do what they do because they feel a sense of duty and responsibility to the walking/climbing community they are part of themselves, not for some kind of personal self-aggrandisement or thrill.

BarryD

Alun wrote: »

I agree. It all sounds a bit Walter Mitty'ish to me. MRT members, or the ones I know at least, do what they do because they feel a sense of duty and responsibility to the walking/climbing community they are part of themselves, not for some kind of personal self-aggrandisement or thrill.

Agreed and I'm happy to help and support fundraisers for MRT where I can. What I think 'falan' is saying though is that MRT 'need' incidents in order to justify their existence. There'd be no point in having an MRT if there were never any incidents to deal with. So in that warped sense, it's a double edged existence.

I'd always strongly resist the argument that people shouldn't do this or do that because it puts the emergency services lives at risk. That's putting the cart before the horse - you'd be better off without any MR service at all if we ever get to the stage where people think like this. And I think you'll find that any MRT person from a mountaineering/ adventure sports background would be the first agree with that POV.

jimd2

falan wrote: »

Sorry but you have no clue what you are talking about. As previously stated i spent a lot more time in Irish mountains and rivers these last few months than you have your entire life. These mountain rescue lads live for the outdoors.
Here's just one example of a man who doesn't mind being on call at Christmas. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/working-for-christmas-dublin-wicklow-mountain-rescue-dont-mind-being-on-call-at-christmas-373031.html.


There wasn't a red weather warning at 2pm yesterday. It was yellow. Ok for hill walking with the correct experience/gear.

Oh wow look at me I know so much more about these things just because I am out there every day. I think it is acceptable for people to go out mountain climbing in a storm and I know that the rescuers are quite happy to go out in those conditions, in fact the rescuers want to have to do these rescues so that they get more of the (taxpayers) money.

Cop yourself on. Have a look at the news report from yesterday evening where Kerry Mountain Rescue appealed for people to refrain from mountain climbing in those conditions.

Have a look at the video they posted on their facebook page and this was written on their page: Conditions on the mountain were extremely hazardous at the time of the incident with strong gusts and heavy rain around the Reeks. 20 members of the Kerry Mountain Rescue Team were involved in the rescue.
Kerry Mountain Rescue Team would urge people to take serious heed of all weather warnings, and to avoid the mountains at this time. Extreme caution is also advised on low level walks and trails near watercourses, as the majority of rivers and lakes are currently in flood.

There is a saying about experience, you can have 10 years experience in something or you could have 1 years experience 10 times. So, just because you are in the mountains every day does not make your opinion any better than others on here, especially when your opinion is in contrast with what has been posted by the rescuers themselves.

jimd2

bucketybuck wrote: »

What a completely pointless non-sequitur. Yes people can get injured in any weather condition, how the hell does that mean these people weren't idiots for going up during a storm like this?

People can have car accidents at any time, that doesn't mean somebody is not an idiot for drink driving.

At least its not the dumbest thing I have read today.



This is the dumbest thing I have read today.

Probably the dumbest thing I've read all year tbh.

monkeynuz

falan wrote: »

At least with appropriate clothing you'll be drying as the rain is hitting you. :-D
When I/we go hiking as a group there is always a plan. If hillwalking at night then a text will be sent to one of the lads in the local MR team detailing van Reg etc in case someone sees the van parked up and panics. We always have an escape route and a plan.

You mean you'll be dry as you get blown off a ridge!

You really don't have a clue.

monkeynuz

falan wrote: »

Here's just one example of a man who doesn't mind being on call at Christmas. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/working-for-christmas-dublin-wicklow-mountain-rescue-dont-mind-being-on-call-at-christmas-373031.html.

He doesn't mind because he does it out of an almost vocational need to do it, doesn't mean he'll jump for joy to be called out to some twat who broke his ankle going out in a violent storm with the inevitable consequence of requiring a rescue.

falan

BarryD wrote: »

Agreed and I'm happy to help and support fundraisers for MRT where I can. What I think 'falan' is saying though is that MRT 'need' incidents in order to justify their existence. There'd be no point in having an MRT if there were never any incidents to deal with. So in that warped sense, it's a double edged existence.

I'd always strongly resist the argument that people shouldn't do this or do that because it puts the emergency services lives at risk. That's putting the cart before the horse - you'd be better off without any MR service at all if we ever get to the stage where people think like this. And I think you'll find that any MRT person from a mountaineering/ adventure sports background would be the first agree with that POV.

Good post, This is kind of what what i was saying until my words were twisted. Sad fact is, The mountain rescue teams need incidents to happen so they can secure more funding which in turn buys more equipment so they can provide better rescues. That is what i meant when i said the teams "want" to be out.

Alun

falan wrote: »

Sad fact is, The mountain rescue teams need incidents to happen so they can secure more funding which in turn buys more equipment so they can provide better rescues.

But the total amount of cash available for all the MRT's in Ireland is fixed currently at €250k pa. Pressure has been recently put on Leo Varadkar on the foot of the recent ICAR conference held in Killarney to stump up more cash but he's refused, so I don't know where this extra cash is going to come from. As it is, only about 1/3 of the annual running costs of the teams is covered by the government funds, the remaining 2/3, about €40k pa in the case of the two Wicklow teams is provided for by donations, collections and organised fundraising events.

running_away

MRT would not go up the mountain if they couldn't deal with conditions.

We don't know enough about the rescued team to cast judgement.

Conditions may have been poor but many people head out regularly in similar conditions without incident.

Where do you draw the line? Nobody should do anything for fear of needing assistance if something goes wrong.

CardinalJ

A lot of points being made here are just bananas.

I agree that it's hard to judge people based on a short news piece, but going out in certain conditions is just stupid. Some people want to push themselves and prove how extreme/tough they are, but personally I'd think less of someone who heads up a mountain in a storm. If you and your party are so tough/experienced that you think its a reasonable thing to do, then you should be able to remove a member of your group independently of a MR team and have the appropriate gear. The guy yesterday broke his ankle, which isn't the most serious injury all things considered. If his group felt competent enough to go out in that storm they should have been able to get themselves out of a bind.

I would imagine Mountain rescue teams do like to be called out to an extent, but not in the middle of a storm. Equally the guy who got lost on lug on christmas day a year or two ago was, in my mind, a selfish idiot.

The whole "no such thing as bad weather, just bad gear" quote is used too frequently by people who think you can buy yourself experience. I spend probably too much of my money on gear but experience tells you when it just not safe to go out.

BarryD

CardinalJ wrote: »

The guy yesterday broke his ankle, which isn't the most serious injury all things considered. If his group felt competent enough to go out in that storm they should have been able to get themselves out of a bind.

Quite - calling out MR should be the last resort when all else fails.

Though that's not quite the message that's sometimes sent out by MR teams, which is more along the lines, 'if in doubt, call us - that's what we're here for' etc.

The Black Oil

Could be just complacency more so than stupidity 'ah sure it'll be grand, there's always wind and rain in Ireland' approach.

hmmm

Where do we draw the line if someone in "authority" is in a position to say conditions are too dangerous? (serious question). There's plenty of people who don't understand outdoor activities, and would happily issue blanket bans for something like a light dusting of snow. Personally I wouldn't have gone out on Carrauntoohil that day, but I have gone out on other days that "civilians" would consider mad - I'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum who instinctively reach for their gear when they hear there's snow on a nearby mountain.

I'd consider a non-hiker in jeans and runners climbing the devils ladder on a clear day to be more of a potential burden than a properly equipped person who heads out on a bad day and has a freak accident.

The small handful of MR people I know love the excitement of a call-out in bad conditions, but I appreciate they are probably a minority. Calling them out on Christmas day is bad form however, whatever the conditions.

Was supposed to run Carrauntoohil that day. But checked the forecast, or at least checked the wind speed and it was up to 115 at the top on the Mountain Forecast site, so called it off. Rain, snow, mist...none of that bothers me. The only thing I watch for are wind and the potential for lightning. Agree with the idea that the rescued person should pay some contribution, maybe not thousands so that it's not a deterrent, but it might also make people think.

Hemerodrome

Deleted User wrote: »

Agree with the idea that the rescued person should pay some contribution, maybe not thousands so that it's not a deterrent, but it might also make people think.

It might make them think alright, of not calling rescue services when they really should.

Hemerodrome

Hemerodrome wrote: »

It might make them think alright, of not calling rescue services when they really should.

Services like ambulances and fire services may apply a charge. Indeed if a rescue involves all 3, it seems to me a little odd that 2 can charge but mountain rescue can't.

unkel

Thankfully there are a few voices of reason in this thread since that post a few days ago

hmmm wrote: »

I'd consider a non-hiker in jeans and runners climbing the devils ladder on a clear day to be more of a potential burden than a properly equipped person who heads out on a bad day and has a freak accident.

+1

I've never been up Carrauntoohil myself - hopefully going up some day this year, hopefully in good weather.

My first time up Lug was in similarly extreme weather and I did that on purpose for the challenge and the testing of my gear and my skills and my resolve. It's a sport. It is not like going to feed the ducks in Stephen's Green and taking the kids to the nice playground in there.

And I went on my own and it was probably the only bank holiday weekend that there was nobody else on the mountain. But I am risk averse, afraid of heights, well prepared and I would be ok on my own without help overnight if somehow I would have been injured too like that man (plenty food / drink / clothes / bivvy bag / torch / extra battery for phone / etc.)

I bring walking poles too. I would like to think I'd have a reasonable chance to get off the mountain by myself anyway with a broken ankle. And I'd hope I'd never ever have to call Mountain Rescue. Even if I had phone reception wherever I was

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I've never been up Carrauntoohil myself - hopefully going up some day this year, hopefully in good weather.

My first time up Lug was in similarly extreme weather and I did that on purpose for the challenge and the testing of my gear and my skills and my resolve. It's a sport. It is not like going to feed the ducks in Stephen's Green and taking the kids to the nice playground in there.

And I went on my own and it was probably the only bank holiday weekend that there was nobody else on the mountain. But I am risk averse, afraid of heights, well prepared and I would be ok on my own without help overnight if somehow I would have been injured too like that man (plenty food / drink / clothes / bivvy bag / torch / extra battery for phone / etc.)

There is, IMO, a very big difference between Lug and Carrauntoohil at any time, but especially in extreme weather. Lug has a very broad summit, it's much less pinnacle like, there are good climbs there but I'm not aware of any narrow ridges or aretes. Carrauntohil is a nunatak, there is far more exposure, the only approach that is not a ridge is from the South/Devil's Ladder side.

The forecast for the summit at Carrauntoohil on the day this man went out was for wind hitting 115mph, ie. violent storm, the second highest in the Beaufort Scale. Just 5mph more and it would have been in the "hurricane" category.

In that environment, most approaches to Carrauntoohil become extremely dangerous. In fact 3 have to be ruled out, for the simple reason that your body is physically moved, as you know because you say you've been out in that. And being moved around by wind on a ridge is just a no no. All the extra batteries in the world or bivvy bags won't help a lot if you are pushed off a ridge. And it's not just that Carrauntoohil may be far more dangerous than Lug in bad weather for climbers, but rescue operations are far more serious propositions.

Now I haven't joined the chorus of criticism of this climber. I don't know his experience, what route he planned, whether he was next or near the summit (the 115kmph wind was the forecast for the summit). I know people who climbed it at nighttime before the day of the incident, very experienced climbers who head over to do Scotland in winter. As I said, we were ready to run it, and we've postponed that to this weekend, and many would think running it in winter mad enough. But it sounds more like the decision born of inexperience rather than a well calculated one. I don't want to criticise you, but it's a tad unusual that you would compare Lug and Carrauntoohil and not appreciate the huge differences between them. I see that just last summer you said you were only just getting into "serious hiking". Carrauntoohil in a storm in winter is really no place for hikers (or runners), it is a place for climbers. This man may have been one, I just don't know.

FrostyJack

Some amount of Walter Mittyness on this thread. People flying up mountains in 100 kilometre per hour wind and walking off mountains with broken legs. Utter madness. If any of yous actually carried a stretcher over any distance on uneven ground you would know it is no fun, so no one wants to do it to get more equipment or to justify budgets. I am all for pushing your limits and testing yourself but if you are going to do it you have to take some responsibility.

monkeynuz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is, IMO, a very big difference between Lug and Carrauntoohil at any time, but especially in extreme weather. Lug has a very broad summit, it's much less pinnacle like, there are good climbs there but I'm not aware of any narrow ridges or aretes. Carrauntohil is a nunatak, there is far more exposure, the only approach that is not a ridge is from the South/Devil's Ladder side.

The forecast for the summit at Carrauntoohil on the day this man went out was for wind hitting 115mph, ie. violent storm, the second highest in the Beaufort Scale. Just 5mph more and it would have been in the "hurricane" category.

In that environment, most approaches to Carrauntoohil become extremely dangerous. In fact 3 have to be ruled out, for the simple reason that your body is physically moved, as you know because you say you've been out in that. And being moved around by wind on a ridge is just a no no. All the extra batteries in the world or bivvy bags won't help a lot if you are pushed off a ridge. And it's not just that Carrauntoohil may be far more dangerous than Lug in bad weather for climbers, but rescue operations are far more serious propositions.

Now I haven't joined the chorus of criticism of this climber. I don't know his experience, what route he planned, whether he was next or near the summit (the 115kmph wind was the forecast for the summit). I know people who climbed it at nighttime before the day of the incident, very experienced climbers who head over to do Scotland in winter. As I said, we were ready to run it, and we've postponed that to this weekend, and many would think running it in winter mad enough. But it sounds more like the decision born of inexperience rather than a well calculated one. I don't want to criticise you, but it's a tad unusual that you would compare Lug and Carrauntoohil and not appreciate the huge differences between them. I see that just last summer you said you were only just getting into "serious hiking". Carrauntoohil in a storm in winter is really no place for hikers (or runners), it is a place for climbers. This man may have been one, I just don't know.

You might want to leave running it this weekend as well, the weather is terrible here at the moment and set to get worse, I just walked the dog on our beach and it was bad enough certainly not the weather for going up mountains.

falan

I have done MS 1&2, i have the required number of 4 hour hikes done and logged and will soon be doing my MS assessment.
I will then be deemed officially self-sufficient on Irish mountains.
I've also done wilderness first aid, which if you have done occupational first aid will go against a lot of things you have been taught. We are out in all weathers, day and night, hikes in zero visibility as is required.
I hope to go on and do my mountain leader award next.
People think i am mad doing what i do. I love it.

Wherever i go i always take the required precautions, I always have a get out plan, Correct gear, extra food, change of clothes in dry bags, spare batteries, bivvy bag etc plus if in a group we always have group shelters. (Having lunch in a group shelter and then getting out again in bad conditions is hard going). Always bring more layers than you need because if it goes wrong you will get hypothermia very quickly.

If i take all the necessary precautions and something does go wrong that i can't treat myself like a broken leg, i will phone mountain rescue and give them a grid reference. That is the advice given out by medics in the mountain rescue teams. If you walk yourself down off a mountain with a broken leg, you risk permanent damage. You could end up in permanent pain or with a limp for the rest of your life. Don't be afraid to make the call in a genuine emergency.

As i stated before, the mountain rescue are there to rescue people, they gain experience in every single rescue.
What bothers them more is people who go climbing mountains in inappropriate gear.
Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

BarryD

FrostyJack wrote: »

Some amount of Walter Mittyness on this thread. People flying up mountains in 100 kilometre per hour wind and walking off mountains with broken legs. Utter madness. If any of yous actually carried a stretcher over any distance on uneven ground you would know it is no fun, so no one wants to do it to get more equipment or to justify budgets. I am all for pushing your limits and testing yourself but if you are going to do it you have to take some responsibility.

Frosty, this little discussion took a turn when people started suggesting that the group rescued were 'idiots' and moreover endangering those who rescued them etc. That authorities might declare conditions too dangerous to prevent such occurrences and so on.

This is wrong and is not the reason or role envisaged when MRT teams were originally set up. MR teams were set up to assist people when difficulties arose on the hills or crags etc. One fully appreciates that it's a considerable and worthy commitment, but you'd have to be very careful that the comfort and convenience of those that volunteer does not become more important than those who use the hills and crags in the first place.

It was reported this week that KMRT was advising the public against hillwalking, whilst GMMRT were similarly advising the public not to climb the Reek last summer. Whilst you can see where this is coming from in terms of general advice to the public, there's a line already being crossed there imho. We'd want to be very watchful that official limits and warnings don't creep into our mountain activities.

monkeynuz

monkeynuz wrote: »

You might want to leave running it this weekend as well, the weather is terrible here at the moment and set to get worse, I just walked the dog on our beach and it was bad enough certainly not the weather for going up mountains.

Thanks. MPlan is to head up tomorrow morning...but lucky enough to live within sight of the Reeks so coupled with weather reports will be able to call it before setting off. Agree that if it's anything like this, plans will change again, might be a couple of hours around Torc instead where there's a bit more forestry to run through and it's not as exposed.

falan

falan wrote: »

I have done MS 1&2, i have the required number of 4 hour hikes done and logged and will soon be doing my MS assessment.
I will then be deemed officially self-sufficient on Irish mountains.
I've also done wilderness first aid, which if you have done occupational first aid will go against a lot of things you have been taught. We are out in all weathers, day and night, hikes in zero visibility as is required.
I hope to go on and do my mountain leader award next.
People think i am mad doing what i do. I love it.

Wherever i go i always take the required precautions, I always have a get out plan, Correct gear, extra food, change of clothes in dry bags, spare batteries, bivvy bag etc plus if in a group we always have group shelters. (Having lunch in a group shelter and then getting out again in bad conditions is hard going). Always bring more layers than you need because if it goes wrong you will get hypothermia very quickly.

On a good day, 4 hours might not get you up and down off Carrauntoohil hiking. It wouldn't get you up to the summit alone in high winds. As a matter of interest, how many times have you done Carrauntoohil? Or for that matter, would you go out on any mountain where the warning was for wind speeds hitting 115kmph? Surely the best preparation of all, the best expertise, may be to forget the bivvy bags or group shelters and accept that there are weather conditions where going out at all is just ill judged.

Alun

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely the best preparation of all, the best expertise, may be to forget the bivvy bags or group shelters and accept that there are weather conditions where going out at all is just ill judged.

Speaking as someone who spends 1-2 hours most weekends sitting up on a mountainside in all weathers waiting to be "rescued" by search dogs, I can vouch that although helpful, a simple bivvy bag will do little to keep you warm for very long, even with full winter gear on underneath. Maybe for 20 mins during a meal break, but not much more. These are what we use in the winter ...

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/4s-outer/

falan

Deleted User wrote: »

On a good day, 4 hours might not get you up and down off Carrauntoohil hiking. It wouldn't get you up to the summit alone in high winds. As a matter of interest, how many times have you done Carrauntoohil? Or for that matter, would you go out on any mountain where the warning was for wind speeds hitting 115kmph? Surely the best preparation of all, the best expertise, may be to forget the bivvy bags or group shelters and accept that there are weather conditions where going out at all is just ill judged.

I agree with you.
The plan before Christmas was to do Carauntoohill today, New years day actually. That plan long since went out the window due to the weather. Its the first thing to check.
My point a few pages ago was that everybody was ridiculing this incident the other day when they had no inkling of where it happened or the experience of the group involved.
Its like a few weeks ago when a certain TD posted a video on FB of a Whitewater Kayaking meet in Co Clare attended by some of the best Kayakers in the country. Safety was paramount that day and these lads would be proficient in all areas of rescue. Rescue and self rescue is a massive part of Kayaking. A lot of these lads are in the emergency services.
People who have no clue about the sport called them reckless and idiots . If they knew anything about the sport then their opinions would change. Granted there are always risks in adventure sports but we just have to minimise the risks.
Here's the video.
https://www.facebook.com/timmy.dooley/videos/vb.548325818649568/581802808635202/?type=2&theater

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't want to criticise you, but it's a tad unusual that you would compare Lug and Carrauntoohil and not appreciate the huge differences between them.

Oh but I do!

The very point I was trying to make was that for me, I felt reasonably safe to go up Lug in a very cold storm with poor visibility with my limited experience

I would of course have not been reasonably safe going up Carrauntoohil. But my point is that maybe that party of 4 was (like those kayakers in falan's post). We just don't know.