Asking A Father's Permission

FunLover18

Czarcasm wrote: »

Honestly FunLover - nope. Marriage means more to me than 'just a piece of paper' or 'only the couples business', etc. There's a whole multitude of reasons why I would see it as important that the family I'm marrying into would want me marrying into them, because relationships don't happen in a vacuum, and as much as that might be an ideal concept for some, the reality is often very different, and depends on each persons circumstances and the dynamics of the relationships they have with others.

If my wife had still wanted to get married in spite of her parents wishes, I couldn't have lived with myself knowing that I wasn't welcome in her family. I'd have felt like shìte tbh, and no amount of how I felt about my wife or how she felt about me could've disguised that pain or made up for what I felt would always feel was missing -

Not only would my wife have fallen out with her family over me, but also the fact that I would never be welcomed as part of her family. The roles are reversed at the moment and my wife is able to live with that. I still struggle with it, because I hate the fact that I'm not close with my own family, but again - they made their opinion known, and I had to make my decision based on that. I had to consider all the factors and I had to make the decision that was right for me.

That's why I don't like these "reverse the roles/genders", "if this, if that, if the other" hypothetical questions, because my wife is an individual in her own right and I can't speak for her or know what she would do in a given situation, the same way I can't know for certain what I would do in a given situation, specific set circumstances that take no account of mitigating factors - that's really not how reality works unfortunately. Life would certainly be easier if idealism ever became reality, but I'll leave that sort of thinking to idealists. I personally can't think like that, I think differently. Some people will never accept that. Cool. It bothers me of course, but not enough to force me to change who I am.

I get that. I don't agree with it but I get it, and it's clearly not a 'property/ownership' thing. Although I would say that if it had ever occurred that her family disapproved you could easily them that speech and if that didn't earn you their respect and approval you'd probably be better off without them.

FunLover18

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

Its baffling how this simple act could be a deal breaker? What if your future husband felt it was something he really wanted to do? Does his opinion not matter?

On the same note though, is it so important that if you knew your future wife felt that strongly you'd go ahead and ask behind her back?

Malari

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

Its baffling how this simple act could be a deal breaker? What if your future husband felt it was something he really wanted to do? Does his opinion not matter?

Well, I only intend to get married once. It's certainly something I've talked about with my boyfriend and with my parents. Everyone knows it's on the cards at some point. But for the actual breaking of the news if we set a date, I absolutely want to be there when we first tell my parents. That's extremely important to me.

FunLover18

FunLover18 wrote: »

On the same note though, is it so important that if you knew your future wife felt that strongly you'd go ahead and ask behind her back?

I wouldn't, but it's not something that's going to be a issue for me.

Morgase

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

Its baffling how this simple act could be a deal breaker? What if your future husband felt it was something he really wanted to do? Does his opinion not matter?

I think it would be a perfectly reasonable stance for me to take for two reasons.

First, it would mean that he hasn't been listening to me for the past number of years, and had thus disregarded my feelings. He knows that I don't have any time for traditions that are done purely for tradition's sake, and particularly traditions that I have an ideological problem with.

Second, it would mean that he was the sort of person to put value into the asking permission act, and it would mean that I didn't really know him half as well as I thought, and so the relationship would have to be re-evaluated. I wouldn't want to be with someone who put such great seem into the act.

However, I don't think it's something that I would have to worry about in the dealbreaker sense. I am fairly confident that I know my partner well enough for this not to be a problem. A poster (pages ago) mentioned that this simply isn't an issue if couples would just talk to each other. We do talk, and sometimes we compromise for the other. His opinion certainly matters to me, more than anybody else in the world. I can't imagine him wanting to do something like this though, it's just wouldn't be his style.

What I'm saying is that, for me, it is a dealbreaker. It may be for other women too. Certainly some women on this very thread have expressed that they would not want their partner to do it. Some women wouldn't care enough about it, and some women would be disappointed if it didn't happen. The important thing is for couples to decide what's right for them.

Balmed Out

Morgase wrote: »

I also don't understand why it is all about the father/father-in-law. What about the poor mother?

I know lots that said it to both parents in law to be. I didn't but only because if I had it would have been toll on her to keep it to herself, not in her nature.

Sunnyisland

Just to add, my two son in laws already had asked and talked about there marraige to my daughters before they ;asked/told; me and proper order two.

Balmed Out

realies wrote: »

Just to add, my two son in laws already had asked and talked about there marraige to my daughters before they ;asked/told; me and proper order two.

I would think in every relationship its a basic enough thing to have talked about along with whether ye want kids etc etc. I talked to her dad before proposing but I knew both were formalities.
Cant help thinking its a bit of a non issue. How many propose without knowing their other half would like them to? Similar with any chat to the father / parents in law.

Morgase

Morgase wrote: »

First, it would mean that he hasn't been listening to me for the past number of years, and had thus disregarded my feelings. He knows that I don't have any time for traditions that are done purely for tradition's sake, and particularly traditions that I have an ideological problem with.

Second, it would mean that he was the sort of person to put value into the asking permission act, and it would mean that I didn't really know him half as well as I thought, and so the relationship would have to be re-evaluated. I wouldn't want to be with someone who put such great seem into the act.

I do think these are valid points and I would imagine that in general if two people disagreed on something like this they would disagree on a lot of other things and a the relationship wouldn't ever get to the marriage stage.

I'd imagine my view and your views would be polar opposites on a lot of topics just from reading the above post (for example I am very much a fan of keeping traditions in general), so I couldn't see two people with such opposite opinions getting too far. Of course you wont get a perfect match of opinions either however I think two people need to have broadly the same outlook to hit it off long term.

GLaDOS

Really interesting thread I have to say, enjoyed reading both sides of the debate, and can see where both sides are coming from.

Personally, I'd come down more on the it's old-fashioned/disrespectful side. Ultimately I'd view a marriage proposal as a personal thing between two people and would see it as going over her head by talking to her father first. If I knew that she would like me to, I would have no problem with it, and I can see why a woman would like to include her father like that. But I would never assume to do it without being sure she would be ok with it.

jill_valentine

The breakdown on the poll is not a shocker.

c_man

I asked Mam about this, apparently the auld lad didn't run it by her father as "it wasn't the done thing at the time". That's 70s rural West of Ireland folks!

Pherekydes

jill_valentine wrote: »

The breakdown on the poll is not a shocker.

71% of women think it's old fashioned, while 34% of men do.

looking_around

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Really interesting thread I have to say, enjoyed reading both sides of the debate, and can see where both sides are coming from.

Personally, I'd come down more on the it's old-fashioned/disrespectful side. Ultimately I'd view a marriage proposal as a personal thing between two people and would see it as going over her head by talking to her father first. If I knew that she would like me to, I would have no problem with it, and I can see why a woman would like to include her father like that. But I would never assume to do it without being sure she would be ok with it.

Totally this.
but one more thing.

Why is it never ask the PARENTS. Is it just the father who should have some kind of say? that is definitely old fashioned.

I would HATE if my partner asked my parents for "my hand in marriage". Especially as I'm for either gender proposing.

anyway, it depends on the people involved. It's becoming less and less important though, and I reckon eventually will no longer even be thought about, except in history class.

FunLover18

looking_around wrote: »

Totally this.
but one more thing.

Why is it never ask the PARENTS. Is it just the father who should have some kind of say? that is definitely old fashioned.

I would HATE if my partner asked my parents for "my hand in marriage". Especially as I'm for either gender proposing.

anyway, it depends on the people involved. It's becoming less and less important though, and I reckon eventually will no longer even be thought about, except in history class.

I'd hope they have more important things to be thinking about

looking_around

FunLover18 wrote: »

I'd hope they have more important things to be thinking about

I mean it'll be metnioned on the side.

Similar like talking about the daughters being married into a family and carrying whatever it's called, money etc a percentage from the family for the marriage.

It's not the focus of the class, but it's mentioned.

Morgase

One more thing - it's been mentioned before but worth highlighting again.

If you're being super-traditional about asking the prospective father-in-law, then you propose to your girlfriend first. Then, and only then, do you ask her father for permission. Not the other way around!

Czarcasm

looking_around wrote: »

I mean it'll be metnioned on the side.

Similar like talking about the daughters being married into a family and carrying whatever it's called, money etc a percentage from the family for the marriage.

It's not the focus of the class, but it's mentioned.

By the time they're getting married l_a, it seems many people have already forgotten what they learned in primary school history class (about dowries and so on), and there's just too much ground to cover on the curriculum, so that leaves two possible outcomes -

Either it's written out of the history books completely to make way for more modern events to make it into the curriculum, and people never learn nor are aware of it's ever having existed (I think we spent maybe a week, if even that, learning about the suffrage movement, and that was in secondary school 'civics' class as it was called at the time. I think nowadays it's called CPSE?), thereby it fades out that way...

OR -

It just dies out naturally as more and more people in society forego the idea as a bit silly. The whole thing reminds me of something from a Maeve Binchy novel I read some years back, name escapes me, but it reminded me of the whole nonsense around courting rituals and so on (if I'd gotten down on one knee, safe to say I wouldn't be getting back up again, my wife would've been mortified! ).

I talked to women who were teenagers in the 50's and they told me some stories that had tears of laughter running down my cheeks, the things they used get up to that'd have todays teenagers look like fcuking angels in comparison! Basically I was told I really couldn't believe everything I read either (historical revisionism aplenty in C.J. Fallon publishing house!), and they told me stories that turned my stomach too, but unless you're really, and I mean really into your history, you won't understand the significance of these things, and the effect they had on the people that lived through them at the time, and really suffered because of some of Irelands more backward laws made on the back of backward traditions, and the people that really fought hard against people that wanted to keep society as backwards as it was at that time.

looking_around

Czarcasm wrote: »

By the time they're getting married l_a, it seems many people have already forgotten what they learned in primary school history class (about dowries and so on), and there's just too much ground to cover on the curriculum, so that leaves two possible outcomes -

Either it's written out of the history books completely to make way for more modern events to make it into the curriculum, and people never learn nor are aware of it's ever having existed (I think we spent maybe a week, if even that, learning about the suffrage movement, and that was in secondary school 'civics' class as it was called at the time. I think nowadays it's called CPSE?), thereby it fades out that way...

OR -

It just dies out naturally as more and more people in society forego the idea as a bit silly. The whole thing reminds me of something from a Maeve Binchy novel I read some years back, name escapes me, but it reminded me of the whole nonsense around courting rituals and so on (if I'd gotten down on one knee, safe to say I wouldn't be getting back up again, my wife would've been mortified! ).

I talked to women who were teenagers in the 50's and they told me some stories that had tears of laughter running down my cheeks, the things they used get up to that'd have todays teenagers look like fcuking angels in comparison! Basically I was told I really couldn't believe everything I read either (historical revisionism aplenty in C.J. Fallon publishing house!), and they told me stories that turned my stomach too, but unless you're really, and I mean really into your history, you won't understand the significance of these things, and the effect they had on the people that lived through them at the time, and really suffered because of some of Irelands more backward laws made on the back of backward traditions, and the people that really fought hard against people that wanted to keep society as backwards as it was at that time.

Except we still get taught about the dowry, and that's not something that happens anymore, nor has it in a long time. It's not a major focus, for sure, but it's normally thrown in there as a titbit.

super_furry

If you didn't ask his permission before you jumped her bones for the first time, I don't think you should ask his permission for marriage.

looking_around

looking_around wrote: »

Totally this.
but one more thing.

Why is it never ask the PARENTS. Is it just the father who should have some kind of say? that is definitely old fashioned.
.

Because it's a man to man thing, son-in-law to be to father-in-law to be.

That's said telling both at the same time wouldn't be a big deal either.

looking_around

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

Because it's a man to man thing, son-in-law to be to father-in-law to be.

That's said telling both at the same time wouldn't be a big deal either.

so, if the woman proposed, it should be daughter in law to mother in law?.

like I said, I find it old fashioned.

looking_around

looking_around wrote: »

so, if the woman proposed, it should be daughter in law to mother in law?.

like I said, I find it old fashioned.

In reality though it's so rare that a woman proposes there really isn't a procedure.

However as I said in an earlier post, if bride was to discuss something with the in-laws (not necessarily proposal related) I would very much expect the mother in law time the go to person for her.

Morgase

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

In reality though it's so rare that a woman proposes there really isn't a procedure.

However as I said in an earlier post, if bride was to discuss something with the in-laws (not necessarily proposal related) I would very much expect the mother in law time the go to person for her.

If I'm understanding you correctly - you're saying that the woman should approach her mother-in-law rather than her father-in-law to discuss, well, anything? Can you explain why please? I'm not understanding where you're coming from with this.

Morgase

Morgase wrote: »

If I'm understanding you correctly - you're saying that the woman should approach her mother-in-law rather than her father-in-law to discuss, well, anything? Can you explain why please? I'm not understanding where you're coming from with this.

Men tend to be more comfortable talking to men and women more comfortable talking to women so naturally men talk to the father in law while women would go to their mother in law to discuss something. It may not always be the case obviously but I would expect it to be the way most of the time.

Shakespeare's Sister

super_furry wrote: »

If you didn't ask his permission before you jumped her bones for the first time, I don't think you should ask his permission for marriage.

And it comes from a time when sex before marriage was frowned upon, but I'd say the fans of this tradition are ok with the auld nooky before marriage. :pac:

TheBeardedLady

I wouldn't be with a guy who felt this was necessary so it doesn't apply to me (I think my boyfriend would find the whole idea hilarious - he's not a fan of tradition) but if that's the dynamic in someone else's relationship and how they go about their lives, that's their business.


I chose the "Meh! Whatever!" option btw.

cletus van damme

a bit of a resurrection on this thread.

I asked him at the weekend.
all good on that front.

GF is currently in the dark over this vile plot to keep her downtrodden that is going on behind her back.

cletus van damme

cletus van damme wrote: »

a bit of a resurrection on this thread.

I asked him at the weekend.
all good on that front.

GF is currently in the dark over this vile plot to keep her downtrodden that is going on behind her back.

Cogratulations !!!!

Zubeneschamali

cletus van damme wrote: »

GF is currently in the dark over this vile plot to keep her downtrodden that is going on behind her back.

Best of luck when she finds out!