Asking A Father's Permission

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

I think when you say "it was implied" you mean "that's what I thought I read"....

Yes, I think most of the posters have been quite clear that it's a personal dislike and if couples like it, go ahead

Fizzlesque wrote: »

Basically, my female friend expressed her distaste for this tradition and said she would find it insulting if any husband-to-be of hers talked to her father in advance because who she marries is a decision only she can make and asking/talking to her father in advance would make her feel like she was viewed as 'not quite up to the job of making that decision without male/fatherly input' . The two men took serious umbrage at her viewpoint and argued with her, dismissed her feelings on the subject and told her they both felt it was a good thing to do and that she was the anomaly here.

Doesn't that just sum it up

Shenshen

Fizzlesque wrote: »

...

Basically, my female friend expressed her distaste for this tradition and said she would find it insulting if any husband-to-be of hers talked to her father in advance because who she marries is a decision only she can make and asking/talking to her father in advance would make her feel like she was viewed as 'not quite up to the job of making that decision without male/fatherly input' . The two men took serious umbrage at her viewpoint and argued with her, dismissed her feelings on the subject and told her they both felt it was a good thing to do and that she was the anomaly here.

I think this is what's really annoying me in this thread.
It's not that some people feel they'd want to do it/want their future husbands to do it - perfectly fine by me, none of my business at all.

But people (especially female) have come on here to say they object to the custom as they would find it insulting and demeaning and some posters think it's acutally ok to tell them that they are just looking to take offense and that really, despite them BEING offended, there's nothing to be offended by. They should just get over themselves and let the men continue their time-honoured traditions.

As patronising goes, this disregard for other people's feelings is really up there.

FunLover18

I've added a poll just for curiosity's sake

Anatom

FunLover18 wrote: »

I've added a poll just for curiosity's sake

That'll be interesting. I have voted anyway...

AnLonDubh

For those who think it is respectful, why is it the father specifically that you ask rather than the parents?

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

I think this is what's really annoying me in this thread.
It's not that some people feel they'd want to do it/want their future husbands to do it - perfectly fine by me, none of my business at all.

But people (especially female) have come on here to say they object to the custom as they would find it insulting and demeaning and some posters think it's acutally ok to tell them that they are just looking to take offense and that really, despite them BEING offended, there's nothing to be offended by. They should just get over themselves and let the men continue their time-honoured traditions.

As patronising goes, this disregard for other people's feelings is really up there.

those silly womenz and their silly notions
let the men do the thinking!


that poster earlier made a good point though - even in elizabeth bennett days it was the woman being told first THEN the guys have their chat

Czarcasm

bluewolf wrote: »

those silly womenz and their silly notions
let the men do the thinking!


that poster earlier made a good point though - even in elizabeth bennett days it was the woman being told first THEN the guys have their chat

I think that's the way most posters here meant it in fairness.

baldbear

I asked for the future father in laws blessing. I thought it would be respectful. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Czarcasm

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think that's the way most posters here meant it in fairness.

They clearly haven't
They've all said men chat then propose. Yourself included

Fizzlesque

Shenshen wrote: »

I think this is what's really annoying me in this thread.
It's not that some people feel they'd want to do it/want their future husbands to do it - perfectly fine by me, none of my business at all.

But people (especially female) have come on here to say they object to the custom as they would find it insulting and demeaning and some posters think it's acutally ok to tell them that they are just looking to take offense and that really, despite them BEING offended, there's nothing to be offended by. They should just get over themselves and let the men continue their time-honoured traditions.

As patronising goes, this disregard for other people's feelings is really up there.

Exactly. If couples like this tradition and want to include it in their engagement/marriage plans, I have no desire to stop them from doing what will make them happy but I wouldn't be including it if it was me getting married, that's all.

It was the mention of 'feminist claptrap' (someone posted it earlier in the thread) that made me want to post - they were the exact words one of the two men used when discussing this in the pub. Now, this chap isn't really a friend, more of an acquaintance, but he's well known for loving the sound of his own voice, and has often tried to shout me down with the words 'feminist claptrap' so I wasn't surprised at his rudeness. The other chap is a friend and he's usually well able to see the bigger picture so I was very surprised at him.

Telling people they're looking for stuff to offended by instead of accepting that they genuinely find something offensive is dodgy territory. It reminds me of when I decided I didn't want to take sugar in my tea anymore (in my early teens) and when I was at my grandmother's house having tea she went to add sugar so I told her I didn't like sugar in tea anymore. She dismissed me with a wave of her hand, said, "don't be stupid, of course you do" and ladled a heap of the stuff in, destroying the cup of tea for me. I was very offended by my grandmother's dismissal of my right to my own likes and dislikes, just as I'd be offended if someone accused me of simply looking for something to be insulted by with regard to this 'hand in marriage' discussion.

Perhaps people feel it's a slight on them if those of us that find it distasteful say as much. Or perhaps they'd never given it the kind of consideration some of us have and are having a defensive reaction. Who knows? It is weird though, refusing to believe people when they say they'd find it insulting.

Zubeneschamali

bluewolf wrote: »

They clearly haven't
They've all said men chat then propose.

From the OP:

Girls, do you want your OH to ask your dad before you?

This is absolutely critical to my reaction: if the guy is already engaged to my daughter, and comes to have a macho talk with me, well, it's a bit cringe-making, but I'm definitely in the meh, whatever camp on this.

All of the negative reaction has been to the idea that you'd ask the father first, and then pop the question (or not, if he says no, in at least one case.)

Czarcasm

bluewolf wrote: »

They clearly haven't
They've all said men chat then propose. Yourself included

I said most posters, and I had plenty of chats with my wife about it, plenty of chats with my wife's family about it, and indeed plenty of chats with both my wife's parents about it. Then I made sure my wife wanted to get married to me before I had a chat with her father (because like I said, I wanted to make sure sure as such that he considered me a suitable son in law).

I've also been unequivocally clear that my motivations had nothing to do with viewing my wife as property or anything else, and if I'm failing to articulate that properly in some way, I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it.

I get that some people on this thread are offended by what they think were my motivations, so rest assured I won't be asking them to marry me. Then we're all happy and people are free to do as they want to in this regard. I certainly won't be telling them they can or can't or shouldn't or whatever. It is indeed as has been posted on this thread many times, their own business, and if they choose to make it other peoples business, then that is their right too.

Czarcasm

Czarcasm wrote: »

Then I made sure my wife wanted to get married to me before I had a chat with her father (because like I said, I wanted to make sure sure as such that he considered me a suitable son in law).

lol

"do you want to marry me? yeah? great well you can't because your dad says no"

beks101

Balmed Out wrote: »

Most of my friends and I have asked without ever saying to to girlfriends beforehand. None were pressured to do it. All would have proposed if he had refused.
IMHO its just a nice way of involving her father in everything and nothing more. Nobody doing it is in any way trying to disrespect anybody.

Its just a tradition and doesn't need to be taken so seriously, how many women tell their father he cant walk her up the aisle as she is not his possession to give away, or refuse a white dress etc etc. Plenty of traditions where the symbolism is no longer valid but doesn't mean they necessarily have to be adhered to or ignored, do whatever feels right to you.

Yes, just this.


It's a benign tradition which has long-since evolved from its original meaning into being a mark of affection intended to respect and please, nothing more. I find the indignance towards it on this thread more insulting tbh.

If my boyfriend were to propose and I found out he asked my father beforehand I'd be thrilled - it would make my father's life tbh. It's a long time since any of his daughters have sought his permission for anything and it's got nothing to do with that - it's the act of including him and giving a nod of respect that would please me. I like to see my father happy and he's got a great friendship with my OH - I'd love the idea of them sharing a special moment like that.

mickydoomsux

I find it a bit creepy to be honest.

'Hey dude, I'm basically asking you for permission to pork your daughter until death do us part because you are the current guardian of her vagina'

Balmed Out

Most men who propose are pretty damn sure of the answer before they ask, and certain of any little chat with her dad. Its a formality to help him feel included it really isnt a big deal and doesnt need to be done but there isnt anything to really take offense to.
Of those ive ever talked to about it the women have found the idea funny and interested in his reaction and the father chuffed. Realistically your not going to do it if you suspect she wouldnt like it, you or her dont get on with the father etc its not really this big serious thing. Helps bond father and potential son in law and thats it.

FunLover18

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ahh jesus, not this again! I don't think any explanation is ever likely to meet with your approval BT tbh.

Can you not understand at all (from MY perspective, not your own!), why I would have ended the relationship if my wife's father had not given his approval?

It was a gesture that really was meant well, for me personally, for MY peace of mind, and if my wife's father had not approved, I would have considered a future with my wife as part of her family untenable. Some people have argued that it's nobody else's business, but I just don't, never did, and never will see it that way.

My opinion has nothing to do with the status of women in society decades before I was even born, or even the status of women in the present. That's what I mean by you and other posters assigning significance to my motivation that simply don't exist!

I really hope that's the last time I have to explain that.

Czarcasm I've been struggling like others to understand your views on the matter however I think I finally get it. Let me give this a go

Your family didn't approve of your own marriage, fortunately both you and your now wife agreed to veto said decision.

If her father/family however had disapproved it would have been a different issue as you had a different relationship with her family. You would have deemed the relationship untenable had they disapproved regardless of how your partner felt about her family's views (that's not to say you would have completely vetoed her views completely). Is that correct?

Now, if your partner's relationship with YOUR family had been more along the same lines and had decided that their disapproval meant the same to her, where you would have had a discussion whereby you said you didn't care what your family thought you would have not have been in a position to force her to marry you. In the same way she would not have been able to force-marry you.

You strike me as a very respectful person, perhaps overly-so, which has to be admired (even if I do think your views are old-fashioned), I think the issue is that it appears from your previous posts that when it comes to marriage you deem the approval of your potential in-laws more important than those of your potential wife. Do you?

Czarcasm

bluewolf wrote: »

lol

"do you want to marry me? yeah? great well you can't because your dad says no"

Ehh, I didn't lol at anyone who was offended by the idea, I'm not sure why you think it's ok to lol at the fact that my opinion differs from your own?

Reducing it to such simplicity doesn't make it any funnier either really? Not from where I'm sitting at least.

I would have more respect for someone's opinion than to laugh at them for being offended by an idea, because if we were all to be so equally dismissive of each other, women would indeed still be viewed as men's property and second class citizens.

That's not a society I would like to live in, and I'm sure you wouldn't either.

Get Real

I agree with the posts on here that say its not really asking for permission, obviously thats old fashioned and whatever else.

But its more letting the dad/ parents know and including them in a happy occasion, then they can be involved in the proposal or a celebration etc. If he said no, you'd still get married if thats what you and your wife decided to do as independent adults.

racersedge

Each to their own, I suppose. Proposed to my girlfriend a couple of weeks ago and I did go and talk to her father and mother about it. Knew it was something she would have appreciated. Personaly, don't see it as something crass and treating her as an object that is been traded. You don't just marry the girl, but you gain a whole new extended family in the process. For me, felt important to inform them of my intentions and they were more than happy with the idea of welcoming me into the family. Admittedly, have to say it did feel a tad awkward trying to bring it up in a conversation though!

Zubeneschamali

Balmed Out wrote: »

Helps bond father and potential son in law and thats it.

Well, just as I have learned from this thread that some folks still actually do this, I hope some unmarried lads out there have learned that if they do this without their OH's knowledge, she may not think it's a harmless custom, and their father-in-law may think they are an old-fashioned idiot.

I'm now wavering between

a) No, not until we've gone through his financials, and he can give me a written report on expected future earnings, with a detailed breakdown on savings, investments, pension, and tax strategies.

b) No, I've always planned that she should marry his brother.

c) No, I've always wanted her to go into the Convent, like her favourite Aunt, Sister Concepta Assumpta.

Czarcasm

FunLover18 wrote: »

Czarcasm I've been struggling like others to understand your views on the matter however I think I finally get it. Let me give this a go

Your family didn't approve of your own marriage, fortunately both you and your now wife agreed to veto said decision.

If her father/family however had disapproved it would have been a different issue as you had a different relationship with her family. You would have deemed the relationship untenable had they disapproved regardless of how your partner felt about her family's views (that's not to say you would have completely vetoed her views completely). Is that correct?

Now, if your partner's relationship with YOUR family had been more along the same lines and had decided that their disapproval meant the same to her, where you would have had a discussion whereby you said you didn't care what your family thought you would have not have been in a position to force her to marry you. In the same way she would not have been able to force-marry you.

You strike me as a very respectful person, perhaps overly-so, which has to be admired (even if I do think your views are old-fashioned), I think the issue is that it appears from your previous posts that when it comes to marriage you deem the approval of your potential in-laws more important than those of your potential wife. Do you?

Whole post, bang on FunLover, exactly where I'm coming from. At last, somebody gets it!

To answer your question though in bold there, I view their approval as equally important as my wife's approval. I view us both as individuals, that will make decisions for ourselves as individuals, and my wife has that same right as I do. I don't control her in any way, shape, or form, and I would never want to, so just because I feel it's important to ask people who are affected by the decisions I make, how they feel about it, my wife has that same right from her perspective. She was bothered by what my parents thought of her, but she decided she could live with that as we wouldn't have much interaction with them anyway. From my perspective, my wife is very close to her family, and I'm very close to her family, and we interact a lot with them.

Just this weekend we're going away for the weekend so her sister is coming in to collect our child and take him back to my wife's parents home for the weekend. Telling them our relationship is none of their business, they wouldn't have offered to do that for us, and it'd be disrespectful to them to expect that they should, if we've already told them our relationship is none of their business! We'd be rightly told find our own childminder, who would be a complete stranger as we wouldn't impose our child on any of our friends either!

cuilteanna

Czarcasm wrote: »

I don't mean this to sound strange or anything, I get that you think it was nobody else's business, cool, but what was the story then with one minute you're in the driving seat, next minute you're allowing yourself to be put in the back seat so to speak, by everyone else?

What I'm just wondering is like, you allowed that to happen, and then you're complaining about it?


(by all means rant away if you need to, I haven't heard anything like this before, which is why I'm curious, just had to ask, if you don't mind? )

So back in the olden days (late 80's) OH and I decided to get married. We wanted a small ceremony with immediate family only and a meal in a restaurant.

Conflict 1: Church wedding. My mother insisted that it be a church wedding. OH's parents first comment about me was "she IS Catholic?" so you can guess what their view was. Fortunately he wasn't entirely accurate with his answer! But OH decided that it had to be a church wedding, and there began my "cave-ins". I decided I could be insincere for an hour without it killing me since it would make everyone leave me alone (on that subject at least). See, I could compromise (LOL).

Conflict 2. My mother, the first time she got me alone after I told them, began going on about how my father had been talking about walking me down the aisle since I was an infant. Since I had to do the church thing already, I caved in on this one too. Again, part of the hour that would soon be over and never have to be thought about afterward. Back (briefly) to not being nagged.

Conflict 3 was the guest list. My father's family are not people I've seen very often in my life and basically have no real relationship with. My parents insisted the aunts and uncles had to be there. I was more willing to have my mother's family because I've known them all my life but then I was told I couldn't exclude half of my aunts/uncles. OH's parents didn't have brothers or sisters so that wasn't an issue. I don't even remember WHAT I was thinking when I caved in on this! We moved on to cousins after that and that was when I finally managed to stand up to everyone and say NO.

My mother is a very forceful person (although I love her the word "bully" would be very appropriate) and we had some very fraught telephone calls when I refused to do things like have music and dancing (OH does NOT dance), or have a "head table" at the dinner or have the wedding at a "reasonable hour" (i.e. not at 10am). OH was nearly ready to kill her more than once and I would cheerfully have rooted for him from the sidelines.

So what it boils down to is that I resentfully gave in to a lot of crap for a quiet life. If I were doing it now I like to think I would stand up for myself a bit more, but who knows.

My father never played a large part in my life - he was rarely ever home - so the idea of asking his permission / approval / blessing is something that even back then I would have hated.

Shenshen

FunLover18 wrote: »

I've added a poll just for curiosity's sake

Thanks for that, and thanks for splitting it into male and female opinion.

It's definitely interesting to see

Morgase

To those who see it as a way of making the woman's father / the man's prospective father-in-law feel included, why does it have to be put forward as a sort of request/permission/blessing-seeking? Making one's in-law's feel included is a lovely sentiment to be sure, but why not have it as an announcement, something like "I have some wonderful news for you..."? There seems to be few enough men that would take a refusal from the father-in-law to heart, and would just go ahead with the engagement anyway, so why pretend that it is a request, when really it is just a private announcement (for most people, not all).

I also don't understand why it is all about the father/father-in-law. What about the poor mother?

My own opinion on the matter is that it would be a deal-breaker for me. I am fairly certain that my partner knows how I feel about that sort of tradition, so hopefully I'm safe from that! And before anyone says it, no I also would not have a white dress (Yuk! I'd look horrific, for one thing!), or a ring, or any of that.

Czarcasm

cuilteanna wrote: »

So what it boils down to is that I resentfully gave in to a lot of crap for a quiet life. If I were doing it now I like to think I would stand up for myself a bit more, but who knows.

My father never played a large part in my life - he was rarely ever home - so the idea of asking his permission / approval / blessing is something that even back then I would have hated.

cuilteanna that sounds a bit more like what I'm used to hearing alright, and hearing it makes me appreciate all the more the fact that my wife's family are non-religious, because even though I'm Roman Catholic myself, I didn't want any big Church wedding or all the rest of the pomp and circumstance. My wife was thinking along the same lines so I left her organise everything which meant I just turned up on the day in the registry office and it was all signed and sealed in 15 minutes (€20 tip to the registrar for keeping it short and sweet! ).

My family were invited alright but none of them turned up, I will admit I wasn't surprised, but I had my best mate (who stood as a witness for me) and his wife there and that was enough for me, we didn't have all the extended relations there only for her granny, which was perfect, as the amount of in-fighting between her uncles, aunts etc would've only overshadowed the day if one of them decided to kick off at the reception and cause drama (adults, can't take them anywhere! ).

FunLover18

Czarcasm wrote: »

Whole post, bang on FunLover, exactly where I'm coming from. At last, somebody gets it!

Woohoo, go me!!

So can I just ask; if her family disapproved do you think there would be a situation where you could have been persuaded by your partner to go ahead with the marriage?

Shenshen wrote: »

Thanks for that, and thanks for splitting it into male and female opinion.

It's definitely interesting to see

Reading through the posts there's a clear gender divide, it only made sense to split the poll.

Czarcasm

FunLover18 wrote: »

Woohoo, go me!!

So can I just ask; if her family disapproved do you think there would be a situation where you could have been persuaded by your partner to go ahead with the marriage?

Honestly FunLover - nope. Marriage means more to me than 'just a piece of paper' or 'only the couples business', etc. There's a whole multitude of reasons why I would see it as important that the family I'm marrying into would want me marrying into them, because relationships don't happen in a vacuum, and as much as that might be an ideal concept for some, the reality is often very different, and depends on each persons circumstances and the dynamics of the relationships they have with others.

If my wife had still wanted to get married in spite of her parents wishes, I couldn't have lived with myself knowing that I wasn't welcome in her family. I'd have felt like shìte tbh, and no amount of how I felt about my wife or how she felt about me could've disguised that pain or made up for what I felt would always feel was missing -

Not only would my wife have fallen out with her family over me, but also the fact that I would never be welcomed as part of her family. The roles are reversed at the moment and my wife is able to live with that. I still struggle with it, because I hate the fact that I'm not close with my own family, but again - they made their opinion known, and I had to make my decision based on that. I had to consider all the factors and I had to make the decision that was right for me.

That's why I don't like these "reverse the roles/genders", "if this, if that, if the other" hypothetical questions, because my wife is an individual in her own right and I can't speak for her or know what she would do in a given situation, the same way I can't know for certain what I would do in a given situation, specific set circumstances that take no account of mitigating factors - that's really not how reality works unfortunately. Life would certainly be easier if idealism ever became reality, but I'll leave that sort of thinking to idealists. I personally can't think like that, I think differently. Some people will never accept that. Cool. It bothers me of course, but not enough to force me to change who I am.

Morgase

Morgase wrote: »

My own opinion on the matter is that it would be a deal-breaker for me.

Its baffling how this simple act could be a deal breaker? What if your future husband felt it was something he really wanted to do? Does his opinion not matter?

Macavity.

It's stupid, I certainly wouldn't do it.