Asking A Father's Permission

Shenshen

Wompa1 wrote: »

That's marriage all over

There's tax cuts.

Barely There

Czarcasm wrote: »

Well that's all it ever was for me - a well meaning gesture, I grant you perhaps a little clueless based on the fact that I was never very au fait with the way these things are done, it's not like I get married every day and marriage didn't come up that much in offline conversation aside from my wife and her family, and they didn't particularly feel any need to correct me on my way of thinking, but to ascribe motives to me like I viewed my wife as property and so on, that's what for me is equally as spurious.

Other people are of course entitled to see it whatever way they want and infer some sort of insidious significance in my motivation for asking for her father's approval, but the way I view it, they're on a digging expedition for something that just doesn't exist, and in doing so, trivialising the significance of something else entirely.

That explanation would be fine, other than the fact that you've stated that you would have ended the relationship if her father hadn't given his approval.

That's hardly a well meaning gesture - that's giving the 'gesture' an incredible power and significance to the future (or lack thereof) of your relationship with your fiancee.

MetalDog

Women are not possessions livestock or property, they don't need "permission" from anyone to do anything.

It's backwards archaic mysoginistic catholic sh1te.

It's not the 1950s anymore FFS.

conorh91

Not a chance in Hell would I ask his permission, or tell him.

This gets on my tits.

It is borderline sexist re-invention, straight out of the Ryan Tubridy School of Young Fogeys. Lads, stop doing this. Some things deserve to remain in the 1950s, for example, trilbies, symphysiotomies, and asking yer one's Dad for his permission.

-He asked my Da first
-Ah did he Sharon? Ahhhhh. #vintage #madmen

Czarcasm

conorh91 wrote: »

Not a chance in Hell would I ask his permission, or tell him.

This gets on my tits.

It is borderline sexist re-invention, straight out of the Ryan Tubridy School of Young Fogeys. Lads, stop doing this. Some things deserve to remain in the 1950s, for example, trilbies, symphysiotomies, and asking yer one's Dad for his permission.

-He asked my Da first
-Ah did he Sharon? Ahhhhh. #vintage #madmen

Thread was badly in need of some light relief :pac:

Tin Foil Hat

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

That's pathetic to honest. You do realise its very lightly to happen as its common practice.

I really isn't. I'm nearly forty and I've only ever known one person to do this.

Czarcasm

Barely There wrote: »

That explanation would be fine, other than the fact that you've stated that you would have ended the relationship if her father hadn't given his approval.

That's hardly a well meaning gesture - that's giving the 'gesture' an incredible power and significance to the future (or lack thereof) of your relationship with your fiancee.

Ahh jesus, not this again! I don't think any explanation is ever likely to meet with your approval BT tbh.

Can you not understand at all (from MY perspective, not your own!), why I would have ended the relationship if my wife's father had not given his approval?

It was a gesture that really was meant well, for me personally, for MY peace of mind, and if my wife's father had not approved, I would have considered a future with my wife as part of her family untenable. Some people have argued that it's nobody else's business, but I just don't, never did, and never will see it that way.

My opinion has nothing to do with the status of women in society decades before I was even born, or even the status of women in the present. That's what I mean by you and other posters assigning significance to my motivation that simply don't exist!

I really hope that's the last time I have to explain that.

Tin Foil Hat

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

I really isn't. I'm nearly forty and I've only ever known one person to do this.

And I'm only 29 and everyone I know my age, older and younger that got engaged recently did it or their husband to be did (and I know a lot of people getting engaged recently). That's in my group of friends, people from work and gf's friends all different circles from different parts of the country so a good cross section of people.

Shenshen

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

I really isn't. I'm nearly forty and I've only ever known one person to do this.

I'm forty now myself.

I am starting to think that it might be a nostalgic throw-back. Bit like antique furniture coming back into fashion or something.

Tarzana

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

And I'm only 29 and everyone I know my age, older and younger that got engaged recently did it or their husband to be did (and I know a lot of people getting engaged recently).

That's convenient. And wow, you had conversation with each if these couples on whether the father was asked for his blessing? What good fortune that such a specific thing came up a lot in your life recently.

Colour me dubious.

my teapot is orange

I really wouldn't like someone asking anyone elses permission to marry me.

But I do have female relatives who retell the story of their father being asked for permission with mixture of delight and pride, like their husbands did things properly or something. I don't get it.

Tarzana

Tarzana wrote: »

That's convenient. And wow, you had conversation with each if these couples on whether the father was asked for his blessing?

That's what I was thinking too. Why would a couples personal life (which I think this counts as) be a topic of conversation? And at that, every single couple you know that got married recently

Czarcasm

Czarcasm wrote: »

Tax that wasn't me trying to get personal

Except where you did that I just quoted. I will not be responding in kind.

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'd at least make an attempt to understand where you're coming from instead.

And I can only understand where you are coming from based on what you have told me. And based on what you have told me I have told you where it appears you are coming from.

You have indicated there is context missing - data I do not have access to - that would change my opinion on it - but you will not be offering it. So I can only base my conclusions on what I have thus far been told. And I have laid out above what that is.

Czarcasm wrote: »

See what you're doing there? You're making up a situation that didn't arise, so you really can't say you're examining facts. You're just hypothesising.

Nope. It is a direct comment based on your direct quote. Nothing invented. nothing added. Nothing taken away.

Czarcasm wrote: »

while arguing that I'm the person who thinks my wife has no mind of her own.

I never argued that once. Quote me arguing that please or retract it.

Czarcasm wrote: »

that's not a double standard

Nor is it the double standard I was referring to.

Czarcasm wrote: »

I had a veto over my family's decision for myself, my wife (who's 'she', the cats mother?), had a veto over her family's decision for herself.

A veto that was rendered worthless by the fact that had she excercised it it would have had no effect as you would have overruled it.

Tarzana

Tarzana wrote: »

That's convenient. And wow, you had conversation with each if these couples on whether the father was asked for his blessing? What good fortune that such a specific thing came up a lot in your life recently.

Colour me dubious.

I'm at an age where I know a lot of people are getting married so there is nothing convenient. I know around 8 or 9 couples who have gotten engaged in the last year. The topic come up in different ways, it comes up quite often at the wedding for instance at least one or two occasions it came up during the speeches at the wedding. Some friends have also just told me and I've heard the story through other friends who were told the story.

Lia_lia wrote: »

That's what I was thinking too. Why would a couples personal life (which I think this counts as) be a topic of conversation? And at that, every single couple you know that got married recently

As above people don't look on it as a very private thing and it often comes up in conversation, speeches etc etc.

Sunnyisland

Bit late with my opinion here, I have two daughters married, there husbands didn't actually ask me, they just told me in a nice way what they were going to do, it wouldent have made a difference what I said anyway, think they just did it out of custom/ tradition/ respect ?? I thought it was nice for them to do made me feel a bit more involved :-)

realies

realies wrote: »

they just told me in a nice way what they were going to do it

I think that what is generally done, people say "asking for her hand" but its really just letting them know and getting their blessing.

shalalala

I don't have a dad but I would expect them to say it to my mother in the same way that I would expect a partner of my mother to say it to me. We are rather close and if she had any questions or an opinion I would like to give her the chance to put it across. Also it makes the other person feel involved as a poster above said.

I don't feel like property, it is more an inclusion and respect thing I think.

yourdeadwright

I won't be asking permission but iv a good realtionship with them so i'll be telling her both her parents that im going to ask her,
Just to let them feel involved because i know her mam would love it, Not that i need there blessing or anything just because we get along and i know they'd enjoy it and be excitied so why not,

Everyones different so theres no right or wrong way to do it,

As more and more people post saying they have done it, their husband has or their future son in law has asked them I'd be interested to hear the reaction of those thinking it was almost unheard off and saying things like "I hope this doesn't actually happen" or "women wouldn't want it" etc etc.

Zubeneschamali

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

As more and more people post saying they have done it, their husband has or their future son in law has asked them I'd be interested to hear the reaction of those thinking it was almost unheard of

I had never considered this a thing I might have to deal with up until this thread, but thanks to you guys I am now planning the mother of all leg-pulls for when some boyfriend of my daughter's tries it on me.

Shenshen

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

As more and more people post saying they have done it, their husband has or their future son in law has asked them I'd be interested to hear the reaction of those thinking it was almost unheard off and saying things like "I hope this doesn't actually happen" or "women wouldn't want it" etc etc.

I would say the same I have said to you multiple times before : the plural of anecdote isn't data. Neither pro nor con.

And I would challenge you to find a single post stating "women wouldn't want it".
What has been said repeadedly (and obviously ignored just as often) is that some women would feel very insulted by it, and that if a hopeful husband was thinking about asking his prospective father in law, it would be a good idea to find out his girlfriends feelings on the subject first, as he could end up seriously hurting her feelings.

Balmed Out

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

As more and more people post saying they have done it, their husband has or their future son in law has asked them I'd be interested to hear the reaction of those thinking it was almost unheard off and saying things like "I hope this doesn't actually happen" or "women wouldn't want it" etc etc.

Unless your very good friends with a man getting engaged it doesn't really come up in conversation and I imagine plenty don't realize how many people they know have done it. I remember being very surprised when a good friend did it and then one by one as others too. Kind of a private thing between father and son in law to be.

Leslie91

I married one of 2 sisters. I did not ask her dad but her sisters husband did. They got married before us too.

banie01

I'm in my mid 30s and approaching my 2nd engagement/marriage.
With my late wife's father, I did the whole traditional asking his permission spiel prior to asking her(But that said I knew her well enough to know thats what she expected me to do) She saw it as me involving her dad and her family in our decision and as showing a modicum of respect to tradition....
I saw it as an opportunity to save money
Cos if I was traditional to ask him for her hand, the least he could do was be traditional to pay for the wedding or throw in a Dowry!
(He didn't, but it gave great amusement )
Now I'm widowed but in a relationship aged in my mid 30's and my soon to be Fiancé is of a similar age.
We have discussed our engagement and we are in the process of having a ring made.
Our relationship and where it goes is entirely our decision, that said I will be taking a drive up to chat to her father before we go public.
Not so much to ask his permission but to let him know that his Daughter and I have decided to marry, that I love his daughter, that I will do my utmost to be a good husband to her.
Its not a ''permission'' I'm after, moreso following a little bit of tradition that I know from chatting to my Fiancé that both she and he will appreciate, more of a headsup we're doing this rather than a ''Would you mind if?''

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

And I would challenge you to find a single post stating "women wouldn't want it".
What has been said repeadedly (and obviously ignored just as often) is that some women would feel very insulted by it, and that if a hopeful husband was thinking about asking his prospective father in law,

It was sort of implied though that women (in general) surely would not want this to happen etc.

cuilteanna

I am delighted that doing such a thing never crossed my OH's mind. I was the one deciding to get married and it was none of my father's (or mother's) business "allowing" "approving" or "blessing" it. I announced it to them myself afterward. My father did walk me down the aisle though. I have ranted in the past about the wedding-to-please-everyone-but-me; that was one of the things I was made feel guilty about and forced into.

The Cool

Oh god, if the boyfriend asked my parents first I'd be mortified for him, my parents and myself. My parents raised us to be very independent, and I don't think that anybody else has a say in us deciding to get married! And if he did, my parents' reaction would be - "she's a big girl, why are you asking us?!"

For me, if he asked my folks before proposing, it would taint the experience.

Shenshen

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

It was sort of implied though that women (in general) surely would not want this to happen etc.

I think when you say "it was implied" you mean "that's what I thought I read"....

Czarcasm

cuilteanna wrote: »

I am delighted that doing such a thing never crossed my OH's mind. I was the one deciding to get married and it was none of my father's (or mother's) business "allowing" "approving" or "blessing" it. I announced it to them myself afterward. My father did walk me down the aisle though. I have ranted in the past about the wedding-to-please-everyone-but-me; that was one of the things I was made feel guilty about and forced into.

I don't mean this to sound strange or anything, I get that you think it was nobody else's business, cool, but what was the story then with one minute you're in the driving seat, next minute you're allowing yourself to be put in the back seat so to speak, by everyone else?

What I'm just wondering is like, you allowed that to happen, and then you're complaining about it?


(by all means rant away if you need to, I haven't heard anything like this before, which is why I'm curious, just had to ask, if you don't mind? )

Fizzlesque

This topic came up in conversation in the pub one evening between three friends of mine (one woman and two men) and it became so heated my female friend left the pub earlier than planned. She rang me the next day and told me about it and, at the time, I remember being really surprised to learn it had become so heated. After reading this thread I'm reminded of my friends' different reactions, all of which have been mirrored here.

Basically, my female friend expressed her distaste for this tradition and said she would find it insulting if any husband-to-be of hers talked to her father in advance because who she marries is a decision only she can make and asking/talking to her father in advance would make her feel like she was viewed as 'not quite up to the job of making that decision without male/fatherly input' . The two men took serious umbrage at her viewpoint and argued with her, dismissed her feelings on the subject and told her they both felt it was a good thing to do and that she was the anomaly here.

I consider this tradition to be nauseating and would be opposed to my husband-to-be doing it. I'm fairly sure my father would reply "I'm not the one you're hoping to marry, what are you asking me for".

That said, I find most wedding traditions nauseating, so if I were ever to marry (unlikely, at this stage of my life) I would be shunning them all: the church, the dress, being walked up the aisle - so it stands to reason I'd shun this one too.

I understand what some posters are saying when they state that the 'permission to transfer property' idea couldn't be further from their minds, and I believe them, but for me it's the first thing that springs to mind. When it comes to the way things used to be for women, I'm probably a bit more sensitive than a lot of other people are, but that's because I grew up having to fight against old-fashioned ideas of women's roles versus men's roles in life. I've done enough research on the subject (for an article I was asked to write, a few years ago) to know there's a long list of 'rules' that used to be upheld that absolutely did view women as property to be passed from one man to another. For example, until 1882, when the Married Women's Property Act was passed, when a woman married everything she owned became her husband's property. Even her clothes and her wages (if she was in receipt of wages for work). The only way a woman could own her home (or inherit a family home) was to remain single.

Times have changed a lot, thank goodness, but some traces of the old ways still linger, and I'd prefer to see them die off completely.