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Minimum wage increased to 11.50

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    #212
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    jay-me wrote: »
    You are missing a blatant variable in all of this.. Joe bloggs who got an increase in pay can now afford to get his windows cleaned by someone else instead of doing it himself which in turn generates more profit for the cleaning company.
    Thats the oldest economic fallacy in the book:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window


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    #213
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    jay-me wrote: »
    You are missing a blatant variable in all of this.. Joe bloggs who got an increase in pay can now afford to get his windows cleaned by someone else instead of doing it himself which in turn generates more profit for the cleaning company.

    The increase in pay is negated by the increase in pay for the cleaner,meaning that the company actually loses money due to the cost of the materials used being inflated by the rise in the minimum wage. Over a period this will risk the window cleaners job.


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    #214
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    sock puppet wrote: »
    Any evidence?
    I didn't use a case example, but here is a Forbes article with citations which goes into more detail on why it harms low skilled workers.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesdorn/2013/05/07/the-minimum-wage-delusion-and-the-death-of-common-sense/


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    #215
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    Another one from Forbes.

    "Firms cannot pay a worker more than the value the worker brings to the firm. Raising the minimum denies more low skilled workers the opportunity to get a job and receive “on the job” training. The impact of raising the minimum wage in 2009 on teen employment makes it very clear that this is especially harmful for young teen workers looking for their first opportunity to have a job. Raising the cost of labor raises the incentive for employers to find ways to use less labor. Most minimum wage earners are not in poverty, yet their employment opportunities are impaired as well as those who are. This is but one of the poorly designed policies that are created by politicians who have little or no understanding of how business works. They promise higher legislated wages or other benefits to constituents who don’t understand the true economic impact in order to gain votes."


    Keep the government away from the private sector.


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    #216
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    Jesus,are You actually saying that an increase in labour won't have a knock onto variable costs?
    Like I said in my post:
    KomradeBishop wrote:
    It's an idiotic level of argument, where an infinitesimally small increase in any economic variable, is portrayed as if it will have a gigantic effect on every other variable in the economy.
    Zero evidence to support such scaremongering.


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    #217
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Like I said in my post:

    Zero evidence to support such scaremongering.

    Get your self educated in economics and you'll find plenty of evidence


    This is a national increase in minimum wage,not a semi federal increase. All boats rise with the tide.


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    #218
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Clandestine wrote: »
    Thats the oldest economic fallacy in the book:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window
    lol - ya because cleaning windows is the same as breaking them; perfect analogy. You'd need to do a lot more to explain how that's applicable.


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    #219
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Here's a quick summary of the evidence regarding effects of changing the minimum wage:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies

    At best, inconclusive - and with consequences so insignificant, they are easily negated by the benefit to workers, of a minor increase in minimum wage.


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    #220
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Here's a quick summary of the evidence regarding effects of changing the minimum wage:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies

    At best, inconclusive - and with consequences so insignificant, they are easily negated by the benefit to workers, of a minor increase in minimum wage.

    Again,federal.


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    #221
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    Get your self educated in economics and you'll find plenty of evidence


    This is a national increase in minimum wage,not a semi federal increase. All boats rise with the tide.
    In other words: You have féck all evidence, only soundbites, and like to try and shift the burden of proof off your shoulders, onto others.
    You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

    If you want to convince anyone of your argument here, provide some evidence - until then, you're just spouting unbacked nonsense.


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    #222
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    Again,federal.
    Again, *meaningless word to make it sound like I know what I'm talking about*.


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    #223
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    In other words: You have féck all evidence, only soundbites, and like to try and shift the burden of proof off your shoulders, onto others.
    You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

    If you want to convince anyone of your argument here, provide some evidence - until then, you're just spouting unbacked nonsense.
    Ok what would you like me to prove?


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    #224
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Again, *meaningless word to make it sound like I know what I'm talking about*.

    Federal.


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    #225
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    Ok what would you like me to prove?
    This line of discussion, goes back to your original statement here:
    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    Wages up,materials up,utilities up,logistics up.The only costs that aren't effected to a great degree are long run costs.
    Prove that a change in the minimum wage, will have more than an infinitesimally small increase, in any other costs.


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    #226
    smellmepower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 829 ✭✭✭smellmepower


    Love the people who have obviously never had any dealings with our glorious DSP using phrases like ''choose to apply for'' and ''not hurting the employment market at all'' when talking about Jobbridge. My 60 year old aunt was told flat out that if she didn't take a JB position in a local deli (where she gains valuable experience making tea and doing the dog work her supervisor won't do for 40 hours a week for €238) that her benefits would be cut off.

    There's a younger girl working with her who's also on JB but her 'internship' is nearly up. She replaced another JB 'intern' 9 months ago. The owner has no intention of hiring anyone. Before JB two people would have been employed in those roles, but the owner now has access to a free labor conveyor belt thanks to the government, who are more concerned with appeasing their wealthy business owner pals and massaging the true live register numbers with these farcical schemes then actually helping people find work. How anyone can say anything different is beyond me.

    I'd imagine a lot of the vociferously pro Jobbridge folks on here's IP addresses would make interesting reading.


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    #227
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    I'd also like to see some stats from people:
    How many businesses, exactly, will go under, due to this change in the minimum wage? How many jobs will be lost, exactly?

    Given that this increase in minimum wage will increase the wages paid to many workers, this will give more back to workers, for disposable spending - which, if they spend this money back into the economy, thus increasing aggregate demand, can do plenty to shore up struggling companies balance sheets, and boost the private economy.

    Given the empirical evidence showing inconclusive or insignificant effects on jobs, from minimum wage changes, the beneficial effects of the above would likely far outweigh any downside.


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    #228
    jay-me
    Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jay-me


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    I'd also like to see some stats from people:
    How many businesses, exactly, will go under, due to this change in the minimum wage? How many jobs will be lost, exactly?

    Given that this increase in minimum wage will increase the wages paid to many workers, this will give more back to workers, for disposable spending - which, if they spend this money back into the economy, thus increasing aggregate demand, can do plenty to shore up struggling companies balance sheets, and boost the private economy.

    Given the empirical evidence showing inconclusive or insignificant effects on jobs, from minimum wage changes, the beneficial effects of the above would likely far outweigh any downside.
    =
    Considering the recent closures of so many pubs etc it is at least feasible to say that in the short term businesses with a static income e.g hotels etc could very well go under as the increase would be felt by them most.


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    #229
    Haxelrm
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭Haxelrm


    bull


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    #230
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    jay-me wrote: »
    =
    Considering the recent closures of so many pubs etc it is at least feasible to say that in the short term businesses with a static income e.g hotels etc could very well go under as the increase would be felt by them most.
    Except you're assuming 'all other things are kept equal' in the economy (that all things except wages will stay the same as present), and that the increase in aggregate demand would not extend to these other industries.

    When you increase peoples wages, a portion of that goes into increased aggregate demand, which feeds back into business profits.


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    #231
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Haxelrm wrote: »
    bull

    Which bit?


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    #232
    jay-me
    Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jay-me


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Except you're assuming 'all other things are kept equal' in the economy (that all things except wages will stay the same as present), and that the increase in aggregate demand would not extend to these other industries.

    When you increase peoples wages, a portion of that goes into increased aggregate demand, which feeds back into business profits.

    But in the short term the Hotel would be forking out a lot more money and for it to get back around might be to long for businesses already in trouble.


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    #233
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    lol - ya because cleaning windows is the same as breaking them; perfect analogy. You'd need to do a lot more to explain how that's applicable.
    I see you either didn't read the page entirely or didn't understand the principle it represents.


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    #234
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    If minimum wage is raised to 11.50 then anyone whose productivity is less than 11.50 will be fired. Great for young professionals with uni education, terrible for middle aged unskilled workers...


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    #235
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Clandestine wrote: »
    I see you either didn't read the page entirely or didn't understand the principle it represents.
    I don't think you understood it to be honest; also, it's up to you to explain what you mean, not just to point people at links and say "here, read".


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    #236
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    This line of discussion, goes back to your original statement here:

    Prove that a change in the minimum wage, will have more than an infinitesimally small increase, in any other costs.

    http://mobile.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-25/when-minimum-wage-goes-up-the-menu-price-also-rises

    Kind of a case study,perhaps borrow an economics handbook.

    Chop and change and cost and increases depending on industry and the results will be there or there abouts.


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    #237
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    jay-me wrote: »
    But in the short term the Hotel would be forking out a lot more money and for it to get back around might be to long for businesses already in trouble.
    Except you're speaking in hypotheticals here, and on the scale of one single business:
    When you're talking about a macroeconomic (whole economy) change like changing the minimum wage, what happens to individual businesses isn't what matters, it's the aggregate effect on all businesses that matters - and if the latter is a net-positive, it's a beneficial effect, even if it makes a small number of already-nearly-unsustainable businesses go out of business.


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    #238
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Except you're assuming 'all other things are kept equal' in the economy (that all things except wages will stay the same as present), and that the increase in aggregate demand would not extend to these other industries.

    When you increase peoples wages, a portion of that goes into increased aggregate demand, which feeds back into business profits.
    I love how you presume that costs will be fixed but everything else will shift.


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    #239
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    It is Work Experience plain and simple. Paid Work Experience at at. Nobody is forced onto jobbridge,its either apply for The post externally,go into education (which you actually get paid to do ffs) or take part in the program. The employers are there for what?,thats right to provide work experience not employment.

    You are living in a land of nonsensical's. The only reason why businesses/companies use Jobbridge is for free labour, it doesn't take a genius to figure this out. The SME's with fewer employees struggling will (and are) slobbering all over this Jobbridge for free labour at the expense of poor unfortunate work-seekers.

    So don't paint the board with black paint, as any reasonably intelligent person can see through what's there in your comment.


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    #240
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    http://mobile.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-25/when-minimum-wage-goes-up-the-menu-price-also-rises

    Kind of a case study,perhaps borrow an economics handbook.

    Chop and change and cost and increases depending on industry and the results will be there or there abouts.
    You said "materials up,utilities up,logistics up" in cost; the article you've provided, doesn't show any of that.

    The article you've shown only cherry-picks a few small cases, when the prove your point, you have to have a study showing the overall macroeconomic effects on the entire economy - since the minimum wage changes affect the whole economy.


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    #241
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    I don't think you understood it to be honest; also, it's up to you to explain what you mean, not just to point people at links and say "here, read".
    Good job deflecting

    In simple terms, damaging things (or in this case, losing a worker and paying someone else) does not help grow the economy by circulating money. The employee who lost his job could have had a job and spent money elsewhere, but now he has no work and is draining money from the government.

    Looking back, I actually don't fully understand what the other user was trying to say since his point doesn't relate to my example. The employer is not getting a pay increase, he is losing an employee


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