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Asylum Seeker protest on Kinsale Road. Mod warning in OP.
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tolerant from cork wrote: »Single mothers don't share the rooms for at least a year now.
Their most recent demands (from Saturday morning) are: we won't negotiate anymore, we want direct provision centres to be closed, we want deportations to be stopped, we want houses for all asylum seekers.
The 80 protesters didn't allow the delivery truck on site, leaving 180 residents that are not protesting without food for following days.
Oh sorry do you mean the curtain that divides the room up?
re; recent demands....
as i understand it, the entire reason for the protest is to negotiate so there is no way that is correct... they may have requested to negotiate with someone that has actual powers
what exactly do you mean about houses...as i understand it they are in asking for the right to work and therefore no longer be a burden on the state
re; your numbers protestors/those not protesting..... suspect
yes i believe a delivery of food was refused as it was being used as a control tactic....
lets face it if the management were so worried about the residents they would open the laundry facilities and allow people to wash their childrens school uniforms0 -
tolerant from cork wrote: »I already gave some facts in this tread. Read them ... and if you wish to know some more, ask?
Mmm no you haven't. The only thing you've said besides your claims about how much you know is a swipe at NASC and a claim about 'them immigrants want our houses'. Nothing of substance as far as I can see, and certainly nothing which backs up your high and mighty claims.
If one didn't know better, one might think you're simply all talk. Feel free to dissuade this notion and substantiate the boasts you've made by answering the question I've already asked and which you've twice declined to answer.
Here's another question, do you have any affiliation to the Immigration Control Platform?0 -
The complete lack of empathy for humanity in this thread is overwhelming..... There is so much nonsense in this thread purpoting as 'facts' that i cant begin to cover them all.. Here i go to try and address somethings..............
It is not the fault of applicants that the asylum process takes so long, it is because Ireland once again has proven itself to be inefficient....
It is completely incorrect to say that all applicants are interviewed and decided upon within 6-12 months.... the process goes as follows -
Arrival
Asylum claim
Interviewed and considered for refugee status - can take number of years
Likely refused (ireland has extremely low rate of acceptance for refugee status)
Choice - either appeal decision and go to high court or apply for other forms of protection (detailed below)
Delays in High Court due to a total lack of efficiency and it would appear no desire to appoint emergency judges to move through the backlog
Subsidiary protection - limited rights if granted
Humanitarian leave to remain - minimal rights if granted
This is why a single application procedure is being mooted
In order to 'qualify' for refugee status you have to meet extremely narrow requirements that were perhaps applicable 50 years ago but not today.....
Definition of a Refugee
The definition of a refugee in Irish law is “a person who, owing to a well founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion,is outside the country of his or her nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself or herself of the protection of that country; or who,not having a nationality and being outside the country of his or her former habitual residence, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it...”
The burden of proof rests with the applicant and in ireland you are considered 'guilty' until proven 'innocent'
One poster stated that we get sweet ... all from 'their' countries....showing a complete lack of understanding of the global system....................................
It would be utterly impossible for us in the developed world to have the lives we have without the resources of the developing world
For example; food, oil, diamonds, gold, laptops/mobile phones etc....
and before someone posts that we pay for everything we get - educate yourself.... the system is entirely designed to squeeze countries into only giving us raw materials therefore not allowing development and ensuring our supplies.............
Not allowing development in countries will result in outward migration whether it is due to persecution or economic reasons...thats just the reality -
So in effect we (you and me) create and sustain the situation we find ourselves in....
HOWEVER
All of the above said...... as i understand it this discussion is about the protests which is not really about the macro issues.....
It is about people living in institutional settings for up to 10+ years and the impact this has on them and society as a whole
Not allowed to work
Not allowed to cook for their families
Not allowed to educate themselves above leaving cert
I do not understand what the issue is with allowing people to work while their cases are being processed.............. surely any contribution to ireland at this time is greatly appreciated....or isnt it?
and the posts about it being recession dont have a leg to stand on,
the system was the same all throughout the celtic tiger years
(19.10 per adult, 9.60 per child)
(Single adults up to 6 sharing a room)
(Entire families in 1 room)
(Single mums sharing a room)
A side issue is also the fact that the large majority of accomodation is provided by private companies that are in the game for the profit..... and as we know when profit is the end goal corners are cut all the time.............
People are tired of living in this situation and are asking to be treated fairly......
In terms of the macro things such as stopping deportations - - - should we no longer call for world peace because it is unlikely to happen?
In terms of those that feel the country is overrun..... do you really want to live in such an insular world? do you feel that ireland is so perfect that we cant improve ourselves through experiencing elements of other cultures? .....and refer to my previous point that if you genuinely feel like that then lets also no longer engage with the global market..... that means nothing coming in or going out.... is that your vision for ireland?
I cant think of the other things i wanted to say other than is this the type of discussion we all hoped for when we were considered to be...
the country of a million thousand welcomes...
Cead Mile Failte?
Well,it was a "Hundred Thousand Welcomes",but I suppose allowing for a little inflation is a good thing....;)
That aside,it appears that,to satisfy Pixie Elf's desirres,Ireland Teo has to declare it's existing policies redundant and embark on a brave-new-world policy which will rectify everything immigrant related.
Aside from the fact that the official statistics challenge Pixie Elf's contention re initial timeframe for decision....
http://www.orac.ie/website/orac/oracwebsite.nsf/page/AJNR-9LED5Q1029825-en/$File/Office%20of%20the%20Refugee%20Applications%20Commissioner%20-%20Annual%20Report%202013.pdfOf those cases awaiting completion at the end of 2013, no more than 17 were on hand for more than six months. As a result virtually all cases received in 2013 were processed in the same year.
The standing definition of the term Refugee,as used in the Irish system is,to my mind far removed from "extremely narrow" as outlined by Pixie Elf.
Our Asylum system has proven itself well capable of offering a soild new future for a wide range of differing cultures,nationalities and creeds in Ireland.
It was never designed to be an instrument of mass inward migration nor to facilitate those fleeing economic hardship elsewhere.
Perhaps I'm mistaken,but I get a sense that Pixie Elf has wide ranging issues with the Irish State's performance in many other area's also ?Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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or i was starting to wonder if there is a personal reason to advocate for the continuing system of direct provision....such as being an employee at the centre?0
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Oh sorry do you mean the curtain that divides the room up?
re; recent demands....
as i understand it, the entire reason for the protest is to negotiate so there is no way that is correct... they may have requested to negotiate with someone that has actual powers
what exactly do you mean about houses...as i understand it they are in asking for the right to work and therefore no longer be a burden on the state
re; your numbers protestors/those not protesting..... suspect
yes i believe a delivery of food was refused as it was being used as a control tactic....
lets face it if the management were so worried about the residents they would open the laundry facilities and allow people to wash their childrens school uniforms
That's what was said 'we won't talk to anyone anymore ... until our demands are met'.
Feeding a person I far more important then washing of clothes. How management can open the laundry if they along with all other levels of staff are not allowed in.
My numbers are correct.
Ask them what do they mean by houses ... that's what they're saying, not me.0 -
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tolerant from cork wrote: »That's what was said 'we won't talk to anyone anymore ... until our demands are met'.
Feeding a person I far more important then washing of clothes. How management can open the laundry if they along with all other levels of staff are not allowed in.
My numbers are correct.
Ask them what do they mean by houses ... that's what they're saying, not me.
How exactly are your numbers correct.... you have asked every single resident whether they are supportive of the protest have you?
i believe you may be mixing up a house and a home.....
you and i both know that if the management offered to open the laundry the residents would not refuse that....
and in fact there is staff on site that would be able to facilitate that... 3 security guards0 -
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How exactly are your numbers correct.... you have asked every single resident whether they are supportive of the protest have you?
i believe you may be mixing up a house and a home.....
you and i both know that if the management offered to open the laundry the residents would not refuse that....
and in fact there is staff on site that would be able to facilitate that... 3 security guards
If the management and staff are not allowed to fulfill their duties (that have nothing to do with Asylum Seeking process) why should they facilitate any demands and put themselves at risk by entering the site that is clearly not safe.0 -
tolerant from cork wrote: »If the management and staff are not allowed to fulfill their duties (that have nothing to do with Asylum Seeking process) why should they facilitate any demands and put themselves at risk by entering the site that is clearly not safe.
they have everything to do with the asylum seeking process..... they make profit from it
sorry clearly not safe how exactly?
urr and as previously stated there is security guards on site
so are you saying that whatever the demand was the management/staff will not facilitate?0 -
they have everything to do with the asylum seeking process..... they make profit from it
sorry clearly not safe how exactly?
urr and as previously stated there is security guards on site
so are you saying that whatever the demand was the management/staff will not facilitate?
Management has no influance or power over the process ... therefore they are not in position to facilitate demands.
Staff were attacked there recently. Pregnant girl pushed around the office, gate porter spat at, night porter held on site against his will when the protest started, manager pushed and headbutted. All while fulfilling their duties that they were contracted to do. That's what I mean by not safe.
Yes, the company contracted to manage and run those places makes profit. That's the idea of every business.0 -
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Other report seems to see otherwise.Under EU law, asylum seekers have to remain in the first European country they enter. This is known as the "Dublin" regulation after the 1990 summit at which the original system was adopted (coming into force seven years later).
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/07/dublin-regulation-european-asylum-seekers0 -
Well,it was a "Hundred Thousand Welcomes",but I suppose allowing for a little inflation is a good thing....;)
That aside,it appears that,to satisfy Pixie Elf's desirres,Ireland Teo has to declare it's existing policies redundant and embark on a brave-new-world policy which will rectify everything immigrant related.
Aside from the fact that the official statistics challenge Pixie Elf's contention re initial timeframe for decision....
The standing definition of the term Refugee,as used in the Irish system is,to my mind far removed from "extremely narrow" as outlined by Pixie Elf.
Our Asylum system has proven itself well capable of offering a soild new future for a wide range of differing cultures,nationalities and creeds in Ireland.
It was never designed to be an instrument of mass inward migration nor to facilitate those fleeing economic hardship elsewhere.
Perhaps I'm mistaken,but I get a sense that Pixie Elf has wide ranging issues with the Irish State's performance in many other area's also ?
Thank you for the link to ORAC report and you are correct it clearly states that all applications received in 2013 were processed in 2013.... most (11.4%) were denied so the next stage is to either appeal that (which everyone has the right to do) or ask for subsidiary protection or humanitarian leave to remain which results in people waiting for years....
my extremely narrow coment is related to my personal opinion that the world system is unfair and there are many other reasons that people are persecuted than race, religion, ethnicity etc
and yes i do believe for instance that you should be able to be a refugee from 'newer' phenomenons such as climate change
the reason there is other protections available as detailed is because the burden of proof is very high... and many people are on the cusp cannot prove their claims unrefutably but are still at risk should they be returned...
i am in fact not unrealistic and i do think that we need to have fair, appropriate, unbiased processes.....i also believe that we should overhaul the entire visa system in ireland to support higher inward migration
HOWEVER
we clearly are not going to agree on the macro issues but as i understand the protest it is in fact in the main about the number of years that people are forced to live in limbo
and yes i have many issues about the irish states performance in other areas....
paying bankers that took risks
taoiseach/TD's paid silly wages...bertie getting pension...
medical cards being taken off sick children
special needs hours being withdrawn or reduced
etc etc etc..... surely you have questions about how the system is run?0 -
In relation to the previous posts regarding the first port of call.... correct me if I am wrong but many asylum seekers actually live in other European countries and after failing there, come to Ireland such as the case of Grace Agbonlahor in 2007 whose children were born in Italy but fought tooth and nail to prevent her deportation back to Nigeria on the grounds of having an autistic son.. why wasn't she sent back to Italy immediately instead of costing the Irish taxpayer untold costs in legal fees...
My mother told me Red Fm radio station in Cork interviewed one of the Kinsale Road protesters and she admitted on air she was previously in France. I already gave the example about the man from Malawi who was working in Ireland with acts such as Jay-z for 3 years THEN claimed asylum..
Another lady who rang Red Fm from the Kinsale Road (Cecilia was the name she used) told a very shocked Neil Prenderville she was fleeing an abusive husband.... Is there something wrong with this pucture? The system (as in all systems) is open to abuse... as previously stated I would far prefer tax payers money to go directly to rescuing programme refugees from refugee camps from war zones...0 -
as i understand the protest it is in fact in the main about the number of years that people are forced to live in limbo
... and that's why they are entitled to pick on staff that feeds them, cleans for them and provides all sorts of services ... and has NOTHING to do with the decision making regarding their applications? Most of them on minimal wage.0 -
tolerant from cork wrote: »Management has no influance or power over the process ... therefore they are not in position to facilitate demands.
Staff were attacked there recently. Pregnant girl pushed around the office, gate porter spat at, night porter held on site against his will when the protest started, manager pushed and headbutted. All while fulfilling their duties that they were contracted to do. That's what I mean by not safe.
Yes, the company contracted to manage and run those places makes profit. That's the idea of every business.
which is exactly why i imagine the protestors are asking to talk to someone with actual powers instead
they are of course in a position to facilitate opening the laundry and giving people keys to their rooms
i do not know about the allegations regarding staff being attacked, i would like to say its not true, but i was not there so cannot
management and staff often, and i have experienced this, over reach their powers and abuse their authority... this by no means excuses violence however i have personally been shouted at by both management and security add that attitude into a high tension stressed environment and you are likely to get fireworks
as i understand it the night porter was not held against his will.... in fact he could have left at any point... that is what they wanted...
you are clearly missing the point about the profit angle.... people are suffering in a system which is perpetuated by the fact that it creates profit....0 -
If that system had been in existence in Nazi Germany, it wouldn't have saved a single Jew inside Germany's territory, before or during the war.Daisy Dasi wrote: »I would far prefer tax payers money to go directly to rescuing programme refugees from refugee camps from war zones...
I don't care if that Godwins the thread, because the thread is already a car crash.
Of course Ireland's system is being abused, but the idea that we are in a position to reject the Refugee Convention is nothing more than a barstool ramble. People need to get real.
The most dramatic thing that the Irish Government can practicably do is create a dedicated Asylum review court to speed-up legal challenges, similar to England's Immigration and Asylum Tribunals.
More likely, is a system of very unsexy procedural changes regarding High Court applications, such as the use of wasted-costs orders for cases of delay and impropriety, lowering the threshold at which procedural errors have their impact, and so on. We could also make more use of deportation orders. That's about as dramatic as it gets, I'm afraid.
Asylum seekers need to accept some personal responsibility here.people are suffering in a system which is perpetuated by the fact that it creates profit....
The system is not perpetuated by the Reception and Integration centres, who have no control over the legal questions that arise. The people who raise, and revive, and re-revive these legal questions ad nauseum are the applicants themselves, often in full knowledge that their (often bizarre) claims are manifestly without merit.0 -
which is exactly why i imagine the protestors are asking to talk to someone with actual powers instead
they are of course in a position to facilitate opening the laundry and giving people keys to their rooms
i do not know about the allegations regarding staff being attacked, i would like to say its not true, but i was not there so cannot
management and staff often, and i have experienced this, over reach their powers and abuse their authority... this by no means excuses violence however i have personally been shouted at by both management and security add that attitude into a high tension stressed environment and you are likely to get fireworks
as i understand it the night porter was not held against his will.... in fact he could have left at any point... that is what they wanted...
you are clearly missing the point about the profit angle.... people are suffering in a system which is perpetuated by the fact that it creates profit....
What I don't understand is why none of theses people are vocally demanding faster decisions or priority for their claims. Surely this is the most obvious solution of all?0 -
Thank you Conorh, someone like myself with an unbiased and fair view point on the matter. As stated in my original post, Minister Aodhan O'Riordain spoke in the Seanad on Wednesday and said everyone in the system over 4 years has exhausted every avenue... they are introducing in Easter a fastracked method in which you apply for all processes at once with one appeal.
One one hand I think maybe the asylum seekers in the system 9 years should be given an amnesty as they are here so long but on the other hand we must remember these are failed asylum seekers and can we give in to people who have no legal basis to remain in the country. Ireland already gave an amnesty to 15000 people back in 2005 for the mainly 'asylum seekers' who were the parents of Irish born children.
As a basis of receiving leave to remain due to being a parent of an Irish Born Child (IBC) people had to firstly pull out their asylum seeker claims. I don't have the figures for this but I know as per RIA reports, the DP centres almost emptied.
If people were genuine AS they would have remained in the DP process as refugee status is much better than leave to remain due to an IBC which has to be renewed every 3 years till Irish passports are issues.
In my opinion, its not the asylum process that has failed, it's the deportation process that has....0 -
What I don't understand is why none of theses people are vocally demanding faster decisions or priority for their claims. Surely this is the most obvious solution of all?
that is absolutely one of the demands....people are asking for fast and fair decisions, however, that will only really deal with new applicants... whereas clearly the ones protesting are already in the system....0 -
Daisy Dasi wrote: »Thank you Conorh, someone like myself with an unbiased and fair view point on the matter. As stated in my original post, Minister Aodhan O'Riordain spoke in the Seanad on Wednesday and said everyone in the system over 4 years has exhausted every avenue... they are introducing in Easter a fastracked method in which you apply for all processes at once with one appeal.
One one hand I think maybe the asylum seekers in the system 9 years should be given an amnesty as they are here so long but on the other hand we must remember these are failed asylum seekers and can we give in to people who have no legal basis to remain in the country. Ireland already gave an amnesty to 15000 people back in 2005 for the mainly 'asylum seekers' who were the parents of Irish born children.
As a basis of receiving leave to remain due to being a parent of an Irish Born Child (IBC) people had to firstly pull out their asylum seeker claims. I don't have the figures for this but I know as per RIA reports, the DP centres almost emptied.
If people were genuine AS they would have remained in the DP process as refugee status is much better than leave to remain due to an IBC which has to be renewed every 3 years till Irish passports are issues.
In my opinion, its not the asylum process that has failed, it's the deportation process that has....
re: IBC status you are cprrect to say that refugee status is better, however, would you keep your children in an unhealthy living situation or would you move out and try and get on with life.............0 -
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Daisy Dasi wrote: »Thank you Conorh, someone like myself with an unbiased and fair view point on the matter. As stated in my original post, Minister Aodhan O'Riordain spoke in the Seanad on Wednesday and said everyone in the system over 4 years has exhausted every avenue... they are introducing in Easter a fastracked method in which you apply for all processes at once with one appeal.
One one hand I think maybe the asylum seekers in the system 9 years should be given an amnesty as they are here so long but on the other hand we must remember these are failed asylum seekers and can we give in to people who have no legal basis to remain in the country. Ireland already gave an amnesty to 15000 people back in 2005 for the mainly 'asylum seekers' who were the parents of Irish born children.
As a basis of receiving leave to remain due to being a parent of an Irish Born Child (IBC) people had to firstly pull out their asylum seeker claims. I don't have the figures for this but I know as per RIA reports, the DP centres almost emptied.
If people were genuine AS they would have remained in the DP process as refugee status is much better than leave to remain due to an IBC which has to be renewed every 3 years till Irish passports are issues.
In my opinion, its not the asylum process that has failed, it's the deportation process that has....
You are right to say that I am biased....never denied!
I dont wish to use an emotive argument to persuade others but to give an insight into a conversation I had yesterday with a 4 year old...
Aunty where is your room?
i dont have a room, i have a house
a house...can i come and stay at your house?
I am sorry but you are not allowed to stay at my house
(not allowed to stay outside the accommodation centre even for 1 night without official permission)
oh...maybe you can stay at my room?
I am sorry my dear but I am not allowed to stay in your room
(no visitors after 10pm and anyway you are not allowed to go into the rooms, you have to meet in the provided recreation room)
oh...
subject change...
i dont share this conversation to try and change others opinions but to give an insight into the lives of the children living in the centres now.....
She was born in Ireland and knows no other life than that of direct provision. I am supporting because I want her to have the stability of a home where her parents are allowed to be role models and choose her nutritional intake.0 -
that is absolutely one of the demands....people are asking for fast and fair decisions, however, that will only really deal with new applicants... whereas clearly the ones protesting are already in the system....
I am not sure I believe you. I have seen placards on many a demonstration and I am pretty sure I have never seen one demanding faster resolution of cases. Nor have I heard any of these people interviewed stating they want a decision asap.
I also note you are talking about a "fair" decision. I take it that "fair" means a positive decision? In one of you earlier posts you seemed quite upset that asylum seekers have to actually prove they are entitled to refugee status. What would be fairer in your opinion? Abandon the system in its entirety and issue citizenship on demand?0 -
You are right to say that I am biased....never denied!
I dont wish to use an emotive argument to persuade others but to give an insight into a conversation I had yesterday with a 4 year old...
Aunty where is your room?
i dont have a room, i have a house
a house...can i come and stay at your house?
I am sorry but you are not allowed to stay at my house
(not allowed to stay outside the accommodation centre even for 1 night without official permission)
oh...maybe you can stay at my room?
I am sorry my dear but I am not allowed to stay in your room
(no visitors after 10pm and anyway you are not allowed to go into the rooms, you have to meet in the provided recreation room)
oh...
subject change...
i dont share this conversation to try and change others opinions but to give an insight into the lives of the children living in the centres now.....
She was born in Ireland and knows no other life than that of direct provision. I am supporting because I want her to have the stability of a home where her parents are allowed to be role models and choose her nutritional intake.
I just don't buy into this thing about residents not being allowed out for the night... maybe Tolerant From Cork could shed some light on this claim?0 -
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tolerant from cork wrote: »This is not true.
Can you elaborate... you already spoke of RIA rules and staff turning a blind eye....0 -
Daisy Dasi wrote: »I just don't buy into this thing about residents not being allowed out for the night... maybe Tolerant From Cork could shed some light on this claim?
residents have to sign everyday to show they are in attendance....
they are not allowed to spend the night outside the centre - some do stay out sometimes at risk of this information being passed to reception and integration agency
I also know that at times security burst into rooms as early as 11pm and mark residents absent if they are not there.....0 -
Daisy Dasi wrote: »I just don't buy into this thing about residents not being allowed out for the night... maybe Tolerant From Cork could shed some light on this claim?
Residents are required to mark their presence at the reception once a day between 8am and 8pm excluding Sundays. Very often when they ask to stay out of the centre for few days staff make no fuss about it and just mark their presence for them.
The presence marking system is required for bad management purposes. Sometime people move out without notifying anyone, or live somewhere else while at the same time they are trying to keep the bed in the centre (just in case). When not marking their presence for significant time (counting in weeks) they loose that bed space which can be given to someone that really needs it.0 -
residents have to sign everyday to show they are in attendance....
they are not allowed to spend the night outside the centre - some do stay out sometimes at risk of this information being passed to reception and integration agency
I also know that at times security burst into rooms as early as 11pm and mark residents absent if they are not there.....
Nobody checks where they spend nights. Security checks the rooms of residents that absent for weeks and never informed any staff member as to their plans of returning or not.0 -
Daisy Dasi wrote: »Can you elaborate... you already spoke of RIA rules and staff turning a blind eye....
from RIA house rules.....page 17
Staying away overnight
2.14
If you ever plan to be away from the centre for any overnight period,
you must let the centre manager know in advance. The RIA may
reallocate your room if:
•
you leave it unused for any period of time without letting the
centre manager know in advance; or
•
if you are consistently absent from the centre
.0 -
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residents have to sign everyday to show they are in attendance....
they are not allowed to spend the night outside the centre - some do stay out sometimes at risk of this information being passed to reception and integration agency
I also know that at times security burst into rooms as early as 11pm and mark residents absent if they are not there.....
Why would security need to "burst" into a room to see if someone was there, that was meant to be there?
And how exactly do they "burst" in?0
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