Asylum Seeker protest on Kinsale Road. Mod warning in OP.

mollymosfet

conorh91 wrote: »

In light of your claims, I suggest you are the one who is inexperienced.

Um, no it isn't. I actually work with asylum seekers. You don't. Stop trying to turn this around.

conorh91

mollymosfet wrote: »

Um, no it isn't. I actually work with asylum seekers. You don't. Stop trying to turn this around.

Stop making ridiculous claims.

I know what I am talking about and I can prove that with reference to the facts, as I believe this thread illustrates. You seem unaware of the basic facts of asylum procedures.

mollymosfet

It's not a ridiculous claim. I work with the Asylum seekers - in particular I help entertain their children. I know Asylum seekers. I've been to several talks on this. Where do I not get the basic facts of Asylum procedures? Have you applied for them yourself? I'm not an expert on Ireland's immigration policies but I defer to those who have actually dealt with it. There are also several flaws in the opposition's argument as they refuse to acknowledge the concept of institutionalised racism and a lack of awareness of the situation these people are coming from which affects the likelyhood of asylum being granted in the first place.

conorh91

mollymosfet wrote: »

It's not a ridiculous claim. I work with the Asylum seekers - in particular I help entertain their children. I know Asylum seekers. I've been to several talks on this. Where do I not get the basic facts of Asylum procedures? Have you applied for them yourself?

You entertain their children?

I've worked for someone who is an expert in this field, and have sat-in on hearings before the RAT and have heard some grisly, credible testimonies where one applicant had no documentary evidence, only scars and a crdible story to prove her claims.

I have heard or researched far more shoddy, incredible claims where the Appellant didn't even bother to arrive for an oral hearing, because s/he realized the game was up (in one case, after a lengthy and costly judicial review to the High Court as a delaying tactic) That sort of scenario is common.

Please don't come here and make ridiculous claims such as you have done, simply because you personally know asylum seekers, or entertain their children. Lets stick to facts that we can demonstrate. Here's one: applicants are not rejected simply because they have no documentation.

mollymosfet

So, when are you going to demonstrate those facts?

Many Asylum Seekers don't have documents to begin with. This is the problem when you ask for "Facts that we can demonstrate".

Hearing claims isn't the same as actually socialising with these people and seeing how their experiences affect them(and their children) and how unlikely it is they're making it up. Distrust in Asylum Seekers is ultimately founded in racism.

Gatling

Yet another story taken from the Pc forum

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/wheelchair-user-with-just-60-in-pocket-taken-to-brink-of-deportation-1.2054218?page=1

while waiting deportation gets apparently married and pregnant yet there's no record of this lady's Irish wedding ,
Supposed suffered a horrendous attempt at deportation and yet seems to find certain issues funny with her own story

conorh91

mollymosfet wrote: »

So, when are you going to demonstrate those facts?

Many Asylum Seekers don't have documents to begin with. This is the problem when you ask for "Facts that we can demonstrate".

I gave you an example of a case I sat in on where a woman had no documentary evidence, only scars and a compelling, credible story to report. She was granted refugee status in June or July 2014. I went and retrieved her case number, and it's 1625240-ASAP-14 if you want to check.

In fact, if you were remotely aware of the procedures, you'd already know that those who are granted refugee status hardly ever have supporting documentary evidence from their country-of-origin, including passports which seem to mysteriously disappear on arrival!

I just think it's a bit rich to come here and talk-down to others as "inexperienced" when you seem to have no clue what you're talking about. Isn't it?

mollymosfet

In fact, if you were remotely aware of the procedures, you'd already know that those who are granted refugee status hardly ever have supporting documentary evidence from their country-of-origin, including passports which seem to mysteriously disappear on arrival!

I just think it's a bit rich to come here and talk-down to others as "inexperienced" when you seem to have no clue what you're talking about. Isn't it?

Not really, since your perspective is just as unconfirmed as mine. There's nothing here I Haven't heard before. But you're still working with the assumption that there isn't going to be a certain amount of people refused because of racist preconceptions or a lack of understanding of their situation. Just because some are granted refugee status with little direct evidence doesn't mean it's going to be in any way consistent or fair. I know people who are genuine cases - Doctors and Lawyers before they had to flee - who have been fighting this system for years. When you talk about them this way, it's dehumanising. If they're organising and telling you there's a problem with the system, we should listen instead of assuming they're trying to trick us.

conorh91

mollymosfet wrote: »

you're still working with the assumption that there isn't going to be a certain amount of people refused because of racist preconceptions

Yes I am. Because if you are proposing that racism is a problem in the system, you need to be able to demonstrate it. Otherwise, you're just making noise.

The fact that individuals are granted refugee status in itself undermines your claim. Why should one Nigerian be granted refugee status over a second Nigerian? Could it possibly be that the second Nigerian could not advance any credible claims?

So do you have evidence to support your claims of racism? Why should anyone believe this?

we should listen instead of assuming they're trying to trick us.

We do listen to them. ORAC, the RAT, the High Court, maybe the Supreme Court, and then the Minister for Justice. Fair procedures and international and constitutional rights all the way. If they show up for oral hearing.

AlekSmart

mollymosfet wrote: »

Not really, since your perspective is just as unconfirmed as mine.

Thank heavens for this small mercy at least.

There's nothing here I Haven't heard before. But you're still working with the assumption that there isn't going to be a certain amount of people refused because of racist preconceptions or a lack of understanding of their situation. Just because some are granted refugee status with little direct evidence doesn't mean it's going to be in any way consistent or fair. I know people who are genuine cases - Doctors and Lawyers before they had to flee - who have been fighting this system for years. When you talk about them this way, it's dehumanising. If they're organising and telling you there's a problem with the system, we should listen instead of assuming they're trying to trick us.

Alek, I have seen your posting history and I have seen you agreeing with a post that stated the Rromani people should be exterminated from Ireland.

I have little reason to accept the words of a wannabe neo-nazi. You are a truly, deeply evil person.

I can't lay claim to to have researched your own PH,nor would I seek to define your character from these even if I did.

However,from the tone of these posts,could it be that I,as a "wannabe neo-nazi",might just be slightly more tolerant,broadminded and understanding than your goodself ?

(I also disagree with the Truly,Deeply Evil bit,but if you feel sufficiently secure in that belief,very little on here will alter that ?)

AlekSmart

mollymosfet wrote: »

Hearing claims isn't the same as actually socialising with these people and seeing how their experiences affect them(and their children) and how unlikely it is they're making it up. Distrust in Asylum Seekers is ultimately founded in racism.

Hearing claims in a serious forum,such as exists in the Legal Process surrounding Asylum,is for certain not the same as "socialising with" asylum applicants.

It's not meant to be,and the veracity of any such claim has to be capable of being proven to a standard somewhat higher than what "socialising" may require.

I have worked,socialised and protested alongside successful Asylum seekers,over the past 30 years,and shared many of their family experiences,many of which were hugely sorrowful and oppressive...did I distrust them because they were Bosnian,Pakistani,Algerian,Romanian ?

No I don't believe I did......do I "Distrust" them now....No I do not.

Do these positive experiences mean I suspend all of my faculties in relation to EVERY Asylum claimant....No,I'm afraid it does not.

Is this caution down to me simply being a" Truly,Deeply Evil wannabe neo-nazi",or is it something worse ?

mollymosfet

Again, I'm not engaging with someone who wishes to see the Roma people wiped out. Whatever you're saying now doesn't change the fact that you have been of this "View" in past discussions and unless you're going to own up to it and apologise, I'm not entertaining you.

You're not wriggling your way out of this one. I'm not engaging someone who doesn't see an entire race as human.

AlekSmart

mollymosfet wrote: »

Again, I'm not engaging with someone who wishes to see the Roma people wiped out. Whatever you're saying now doesn't change the fact that you have been of this "View" in past discussions and unless you're going to own up to it and apologise, I'm not entertaining you.

You're not wriggling your way out of this one. I'm not engaging someone who doesn't see an entire race as human.

No wriggling about it.


I do not desire to see the entire Roma Race wiped out,and that's not a "View" as you put it.

I'm not seeking to be entertained by anybody,however you are making a whole shedload of claims and accusations against posters who'se opinions differ from your own.

You surely must factually support your claims that this State's Asylum system is racist in tenor,as so far,you have refused totally to accept solid factual evidence to the contrary posted by others ?

The suggestion that "socialising " with Asylum Applicants or "entertaining" their children gives one some form of elevated status when debating the issue appears to me to be less than sustainable ?

walshb

Asylum seekers refused entry or leave to remain because of racism? Absolute rubbish. The system here is extremely generous/helpful and tolerant.

rgossip30

mollymosfet wrote: »

Um, no it isn't. I actually work with asylum seekers. You don't. Stop trying to turn this around.

Naturally you are going to defend them regardless as its your livelyhood .

rgossip30

Gatling wrote: »

Yet another story taken from the Pc forum

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/wheelchair-user-with-just-60-in-pocket-taken-to-brink-of-deportation-1.2054218?page=1

while waiting deportation gets apparently married and pregnant yet there's no record of this lady's Irish wedding ,
Supposed suffered a horrendous attempt at deportation and yet seems to find certain issues funny with her own story

An Apostille Cert is now required in Ireland for a marriage whether this law was in place at the time is not known. Somalia and Tanzania are not approved Apostille countries.

ireland.man

rgossip30 wrote: »

Naturally you are going to defend them regardless as its your livelyhood .

I don't think Mollymosfet can be accused of not being genuine or passionate about her concern for the welfare of asylum seekers and refugees in this country!

walshb

ireland.man wrote: »

I don't think Mollymosfet can be accused of not being genuine or passionate about her concern for the welfare of asylum seekers and refugees in this country!

But in her desire to be so caring and passionate she is being far too biased and partial.

ireland.man

walshb wrote: »

But in her desire to be so caring and passionate she is being far too biased and partial.

It's always something to keep in mind when trying to be self-reflective, I agree. But I've spent years volunteering in reception centres and taking the children of asylum seekers on day trips to the beach, etc, and honestly it's hard to reconcile the views of many people on Boards with what you see on the ground in those places. I've heard horror stories from people in these centres that might be met with cynical responses on here but in person are heart breaking. I think it would be impossible for anyone in this discussion to experience these centres (albeit in a limited way) like I have and be unbiased.

AlekSmart

ireland.man wrote: »

It's always something to keep in mind when trying to be self-reflective, I agree. But I've spent years volunteering in reception centres and taking the children of asylum seekers on day trips to the beach, etc, and honestly it's hard to reconcile the views of many people on Boards with what you see on the ground in those places. I've heard horror stories from people in these centres that might be met with cynical responses on here but in person are heart breaking. I think it would be impossible for anyone in this discussion to experience these centres (albeit in a limited way) like I have and be unbiased.

I would not demean or reduce the standing of you're or Mollymofset's experiences in such centre's at all.

Of course the personal closeness and involvement which comes with such work has to be recognized.

However,this is not what is at issue here.

We have a developed Asylum procedure,a fully democratic and lawfully enacted system which recognizes the individuality of Asylum claimants and their cases.

Our Asylum system is both inclusive and fully transparent,with full access to appeals processes up to and including Special Permission's and Leave to Remain options,all of which underline the fit-for-purpose nature of Irelands Asylum System.

Yet,we are regularly reminded that our system is viewed by many as having to be uni-directional...In other words,it HAS to accede to any and all requests,without having the opportunity or right to fully verify the,often horrific,accounts and claims of applicants.

Being a Volunteer in Asylum Centres or minding asylum-claimants children are very socially positive acts,which few will argue over (certainly not myself),however these actions and/or whatever level of bias that may come from them,cannot be claimed to be of greater importance or relevance than the long hours of work put into the Asylum and Appeals process by those working within it.

If the suggestion is,that those Legal,Social and Administrative professionals working within the various State Asylum related agencies are somehow or other NOT permitted to be professional simply because they do not engage socially with the Asylum Applicants and their families,then I have to strongly disagree with that.

I have yet to see anybody from the Liberalize Asylum Seeking "side" ever conside, or recognize the human and emotional effects experienced by the Staff of these agencies and the Garda NIB members who have to step-up-to the responsibility plate to enforce the deportation orders.

Instead it often appears easier,almost compulsory,to portray this group of humans as being inhuman,oppressive and cruel...often without a shred of supporting evidence for this.

It is for me,the all too easy-option.

mollymosfet

But people are telling you about the ACTUAL lived experience of Asylum Seekers, and funnily enough this seems to be irrelevant.

mollymosfet

walshb wrote: »

Asylum seekers refused entry or leave to remain because of racism? Absolute rubbish. The system here is extremely generous/helpful and tolerant.

Why, have you dealt with it? Personally?

If not, then shut up.

Gatling

mollymosfet wrote: »

But people are telling you about the ACTUAL lived experience of Asylum Seekers, and funnily enough this seems to be irrelevant.

Its purely anecdotal at best

walshb

mollymosfet wrote: »

Why, have you dealt with it? Personally?

If not, then shut up.

Well, as soon as you debate impartially maybe we'll all shut up....

BTW, I hope your care and consideration and decorum are a lot better when you're interacting with asylum seekers than it is here.

walshb

ireland.man wrote: »

It's always something to keep in mind when trying to be self-reflective, I agree. But I've spent years volunteering in reception centres and taking the children of asylum seekers on day trips to the beach, etc, and honestly it's hard to reconcile the views of many people on Boards with what you see on the ground in those places. I've heard horror stories from people in these centres that might be met with cynical responses on here but in person are heart breaking. I think it would be impossible for anyone in this discussion to experience these centres (albeit in a limited way) like I have and be unbiased.

Fair points, and ones I agree with.

K-9

mollymosfet wrote: »

Why, have you dealt with it? Personally?

If not, then shut up.

Mod: Banned for repeated incivility and back seat moderation despite previous warning.

rgossip30

mollymosfet wrote: »

Why, have you dealt with it? Personally?

If not, then shut up.

They can always leave if they do not like the conditions here and shop around.