Mercola / Natural News as sources

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

We are talking about the effectiveness of natural remedies v pharma compounds.

No we are talking about (see below)

jh79 wrote: »

Can you give an example of a natural remedy that is effective in its natural state?

You are shifting goalposts again ..... Its getting boring ....

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Effective natural remedies, to be a remedy you need something to treat. So what illnesses have you show can be treated with a natural remedy in its natural state?

One , St John's Wort.

Garlic ( Cholestorol)

Ginger ( gut)

Honey

Non-iodized table salt

Ginkgo (Ginkgo biloba) has been used in traditional medicine to treat circulatory disorders and enhance memory. Although not all studies agree, ginkgo may be especially effective in treating dementia (including Alzheimer's disease) and intermittent claudication (poor circulation in the legs). It also shows promise for enhancing memory in older adults. Laboratory studies have shown that ginkgo improves blood circulation by dilating blood vessels and reducing the stickiness of blood platelets. By the same token, this means ginkgo may also increase the effect of some blood thinning medications, including aspirin. People taking blood thinning medications should ask their doctor before using ginkgo. Caution should also be taken with people with a history of seizures and people with fertility issues; speak with your physician.
Kava kava (Piper methysticum) is said to elevate mood, enhance well being and contentment, and produce a feeling of relaxation. Several studies have found that kava may be useful in the treatment of anxiety, insomnia, and related nervous disorders. However, there is serious concern that kava may cause liver damage. It's not clear whether the kava itself caused liver damage in a few people, or whether it was taking kava in combination with other drugs or herbs. It's also not clear whether kava is dangerous at previously recommended doses, or only at higher doses. Some countries have taken kava off the market. It remains available in the United States, but the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) issued a consumer advisory in March of 2002 regarding the "rare" but potential risk of liver failure associated with kava containing products.
Saw palmetto (Serenoa repens) is used by more than 2 million men in the United States for the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH), a non cancerous enlargement of the prostate gland. A number of studies suggest that the herb is effective for treating symptoms, including frequent urination, having trouble starting or maintaining urination, and needing to urinate during the night. But a well-conducted study published in the February 9, 2006 edition of the New England Journal of Medicine found that saw palmetto was no better than placebo in relieving the signs and symptoms of BPH.
St. John's wort (Hypericum perforatum) is well known for its antidepressant effects. In general, most studies have shown that St. John's wort may be an effective treatment for mild to moderate depression, and has fewer side effects than most other prescription antidepressants. But the herb interacts with a wide variety of medications, including birth control pills, and can potentially cause unwanted side effects, so it is important to take it only under the guidance of a health care provider.
Valerian (Valeriana officinalis) is a popular alternative to commonly prescribed medications for sleep problems because it is considered to be both safe and gentle. Some studies bear this out, although not all have found valerian to be effective. Unlike many prescription sleeping pills, valerian may have fewer side effects, such as morning drowsiness. However, Valerian does interact with some medications, particularly psychiatric medications, so you should speak to your doctor to see if Valerian is right for you.
Echinacea preparations (from Echinacea purpurea and other Echinacea species) may improve the body's natural immunity. Echinacea is one of the most commonly used herbal products, but studies are mixed as to whether it can help prevent or treat colds. A review of 14 clinical studies examining the effect of echinacea on the incidence and duration of the common cold found that echinacea supplements decreased the odds of getting a cold by 58%. It also shortened the duration of a cold by 1.4 days. Echinacea can interact with certain medications and may not be right for people with certain conditions, for example people with autoimmune disorders or certain allergies. Speak with your physician


Source: Herbal medicine | University of Maryland Medical Center http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/treatment/herbal-medicine#ixzz3DqmQ9jyo
University of Maryland Medical Center
Follow us: @UMMC on Twitter | MedCenter on Facebook

What is the future of herbal medicine?
In some countries in Europe -- unlike the U.S. -- herbs are classified as drugs and are regulated. The German Commission E, an expert medical panel, actively researches their safety and effectiveness.
While still not widely accepted, herbal medicine is being taught more in medical schools and pharmacy schools. More health care providers are learning about the positive and potentially negative effects of using herbal medicines to help treat health conditions. Some health care providers, including doctors and pharmacists, are trained in herbal medicine. They can help people create treatment plans that use herbs, conventional medications, and lifestyle changes to promote health.


Source: Herbal medicine | University of Maryland Medical Center http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/treatment/herbal-medicine#ixzz3Dqmhl8Uw
University of Maryland Medical Center
Follow us: @UMMC on Twitter | MedCenter on Facebook

weisses

After reading Below Mercola looks like a saint.

Since 2008, pharmaceutical companies have agreed to pay more than $13 billion to resolve U.S. Department of Justice allegations of fraudulent marketing practices. Among the cases:

• Eli Lilly distributed videotapes to doctors titled "The Myth of Diabetes" when marketing its antipsychotic Zyprexa, despite being aware of studies showing those taking the drug had a higher rate of diabetes, government investigators say. The government accused the company of pressing doctors to prescribe Zyprexa to children and collected a $1.4 billion fine.

• Pfizer, which paid a $2.3 billion fine to settle a whistle-blower lawsuit, hired 250 child psychiatrists to help market its antipsychotic Geodon despite there being no approved pediatric use for the drug from the FDA. As part of the settlement, Pfizer denied any wrongdoing.

• AstraZeneca paid a fine of $520 million to resolve allegations that it promoted the antipsychotic Seroquel to treat aggression, sleeplessness, anxiety and depression when the FDA had approved the drug only to treat schizophrenia and, later, bipolar mania. Government investigators said the company targeted child physicians.

• Johnson & Johnson targeted what it called key opinion leaders to help promote the use of anti-psychotic Risperdal in children, the government alleged in another lawsuit that resulted in a $2.2 billion fine to resolve criminal and civil allegations.

The GlaxoSmithKline whistle-blower case in which Thorpe was a plaintiff included allegations the company encouraged health care providers to prescribe antidepressants to children when the FDA had not approved the drugs for pediatric use. Glaxo agreed to pay $3 billion to the federal government to settle the case, the largest health care false-claims act settlement ever.

Government investigators found that Glaxo aggressively marketed Paxil off-label as curing everything from depression to shyness in children. Increasing pediatric prescriptions of the drug was a key business strategy for the company, one that helped propel Paxil to $2.7 billion in sales in the United States in 2003, documents show.

Between 1994 and 2001, the company conducted three trials using Paxil to treat depression in those under 18. None of the trials showed the drug helped depressed children, the government asserted. But the trials showed that Paxil had harmful effects and increased the likelihood of suicidal thinking and behavior in children.

Despite those damaging findings, the company hired a firm to help it publish a favorable article about Paxil in the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry.

It wasn't until 2006, two years after the FDA ordered all manufacturers of antidepressants to provide cautionary warnings on their labels, that Glaxo changed Paxil's label to note the suicidal risk and sent letters to doctors alerting them of the risk.

http://www.denverpost.com/investigations/ci_25561024/drug-firms-have-used-dangerous-tactics-drive-sales


Just the tip of the Iceberg

jh79

But a well-conducted study published in the February 9, 2006 edition of the New England Journal of Medicine found that saw palmetto was no better than placebo in relieving the signs and symptoms of BPH.

A review of 14 clinical studies examining the effect of echinacea on the incidence and duration of the common cold found that echinacea supplements decreased the odds of getting a cold by 58%. It also shortened the duration of a cold by 1.4 days.

Although not all studies agree, ginkgo may be especially effective in treating dementia (including Alzheimer's disease) and intermittent claudication (poor circulation in the legs).

Nothing too exciting to be fair, lots of maybe's. I'm sure someone is researching what causes what little medicinal effect they have and we might get something truly effective in the future.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

After reading Below Mercola looks like a saint.



http://www.denverpost.com/investigations/ci_25561024/drug-firms-have-used-dangerous-tactics-drive-sales


Just the tip of the Iceberg

Just curious, do you believe the authorities are in cahoots with the Big pharma companies? Because to me this shows the effectiveness and independence of the regulatory authorities.

Brown Bomber

jh79 wrote: »

to me this shows the effectiveness and independence of the regulatory authorities.

Observing a double standard here. You want to crucify Mercola and co for their dishonest marketing but shrug when it's big pharma selling the snake oil.

jh79

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Observing a double standard here. You want to crucify Mercola and co for their dishonest marketing but shrug when it's big pharma selling the snake oil.

Not selling snake oil to be fair, they do what they were approved to do .

Not defending big pharma here, I'm defending the FDA.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Not selling snake oil to be fair, they do what they were approved to do .

Not defending big pharma here, I'm defending the FDA.

Well then you must vent your angerto GlaxoSmithKline as well because they got warned for prescribing antidepressants to children when the FDA had not approved the drugs for pediatric use.

and now they are found guilty of bribery

http://online.wsj.com/articles/glaxosmithkline-found-guilty-of-bribery-in-china-1411114817

And why so hung up on the FDA ?? Last time I checked we are living in europe

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Well then you must vent your angerto GlaxoSmithKline as well because they got warned for prescribing antidepressants to children when the FDA had not approved the drugs for pediatric use.

and now they are found guilty of bribery

http://online.wsj.com/articles/glaxosmithkline-found-guilty-of-bribery-in-china-1411114817

And why so hung up on the FDA ?? Last time I checked we are living in europe

The example s you gave where from the US. I also think the IMB do a great job.

jh79

Mercola and the likes don't think supplements and natural remedies should be regulated.

They don't want to have to engage with the FDA not because as they say natural remedies don't have side effects but because they know they don't have the medicinal effects they claim.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

The example s you gave where from the US. I also think the IMB do a great job.

Sorry your whole thread is about the FDA starting with the OP

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Mercola and the likes don't think supplements and natural remedies should be regulated.

They don't want to have to engage with the FDA not because as they say natural remedies don't have side effects but because they know they don't have the medicinal effects they claim.

I did not think they had a say in the matter .... If the FDA regulates mercola have to follow suit

jh79

weisses wrote: »

I did not think they had a say in the matter .... If the FDA regulates mercola have to follow suit

They don't regulate yet, he can sell what he likes as long as he doesn't make claims of medicinal effect hence the warning letters and the disclaimer s on his website.

Some think that the FDA should regulate supplement s also and they should not be available for sale unless they go through the same process pharma drugs go through.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Some think that the FDA should regulate supplement s also and they should not be available for sale unless they go through the same process pharma drugs go through.

Dietary supplements are regulated by the FDA .... AFAIK they also contain herbal supplements

look at it this way

Drugs are considered unsafe until proven safe

Dietary supplements are considered safe until proven unsafe

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Dietary supplements are regulated by the FDA .... AFAIK they also contain herbal supplements

look at it this way

Drugs are considered unsafe until proven safe

Dietary supplements are considered safe until proven unsafe

Are you sure thought as long as they don't lie about the benefits they are free to sell them?

Bit of a catch 22 if they have a medicinal effect it is likely they also have some level of adverse effect and therefore need to be regulated . You can't have a medicinal effect without some adverse effects.

But if they have no medicinal effect and therefore need no regulations then they are pointless.

So if you believe they have a medicinal effect then surely they need to be regulated to ensure safe use?

jh79

Not regulated from what i can tell.

Torakx

jh79 wrote: »

Can you give an example of a natural remedy that is effective in its natural state?

Garlic contains a chemical ( no different than those produced in a lab) that might have medicinal effects but garlic in its natural state will not consistently contain enough to produce an effect

Doctors don't promote natural remedies because of some big pharma conspiracy but because they don't work.

Garlic is effect in it's natural state.
The chemicals you refer to, are released when you leave it opened to the air for a few minutes.
It has been very effective from my experience, as I have written a couple of pages back.
This wasn't even one of those natural supplements like aged garlic tablets that are more potent.

Sticking with the example of a chest infection and the current treatment my friends doctor uses, I can see quite clearly that garlic works better than anti biotics, it is less effective in killing infections, but it is more effective at killing infections without damaging the immune system, plus it helps with many other things the anti biotics cannot.
I presume the reason doctors will prescribe anti biotics while knowing it damages your immune system, is because they don't care, or they have been lead to believe that natural remedies don't work(including aged garlic tablets...*shakes head sadly*.

Anyone who has used natural remedies correctly, will attest to them being very effective.
When considering the whole body and the other areas that benefit at the same time, it makes it a no brainer.
The problem with doctors approaches it seems, is that they seem to target symptoms for the most part and not root causes.
This means that while looking at attacking a symptom, theymay not even be considering the other areas linked into that system and how their treatment shave a knock on effect. Or maybe it's just good for business..
Natural remedies are for helaing the whole body.
The general rule is to help your body stay healthy and if unhealthy, to slowly bring it back around.
Not to nuke the symptoms completely and take a massive chunk of the immune system with it.
Maybe thats simply it? Two different approaches?

Either way it can't be denied that garlic is an effective remedy for many health issues.

jh79

What illness does garlic treat, by how much is it more effective than a pharma compound and how does work and how come it doesn't have adverse effects if it affects cell biology?

Torakx

jh79 wrote: »

What illness does garlic treat, by how much is it more effective than a pharma compound and how does work and how come it doesn't have adverse effects if it affects cell biology?

I think i hit the nail on the head when looking at the methods of treatment.
They seem like two different methods.
The natural health method seems to focus more on keeping the other systems in the body stable and supporting them. While the "scientific" method is to target the symptoms, and neglect some areas that theyare havign an effect on in other parts of the system.

With that in mind, it could be said that the medicine used by doctors is more effective at addressing symptoms in the short term(i refer you tomy thoughts on anti biotics and the immune system).

The natural remedies are more effective in addressing health in the long term. They are in most cases not as effective at attacking symptoms in the same way as modern medicine.

So I agree with some of your thoughts, but I also still see natural health remedies as very effective, for those reasons.

They seem to be different approaches to health recovery.
Do you think that could be the case?
y the way i found something you might enjoy
I found it funny and this guy is very informative too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA0wKeokWUU

Sorry I didnt quite answer your question on garlic..

http://gmsstemfairsranamukhaarachchi.weebly.com/introduction.html

In former experiments garlic have been used to kill E. coli. An example of these medical properties includes the use of garlic in raw fish to eliminate bacteria and viruses. The garlic oils effectively provide an alternate to safely eating fish. Garlic oils have also been used along with other medicines to kill off bacteria faster. Garlic oils are used as a home remedy for ear infections. Instead of wasting their money on antibiotics they used garlic. The bacteria that antibiotic drugs are used against can adapt to develop resistance against these drugs. Studies have shown that garlic can fight the bacteria that have built a resistance.

This kind of covers a bit more on the properties of garlic.
I had forgotten about ear infections. That is another issue I would only need a garlic clove for.
And alsoanother situation where a doctor mayprescribe antibiotics.

jh79

Assuming that garlic is effective then I suspect the quantities needed would be high? And if it interferes with cell biology then there is the possibility of adverse effects. Surely it would be logical to regulate concentrated supplements to guarantee safety and efficacy?

While diet is a risk factor (the onions /garlic study is relevant here only) for many illnesses it is only one factor so the best diet in the world won't make you immune to illness. Studies have shown supplements to be pointless unless you have a deficiency .

Old wives tales around natural remedies are just possible sources for actual medicine or for treating rudimentary illnesses like the common cold.

jh79

I always thought St John's Wort was proven to be effective but it seems it is still just a maybe.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/stjohnswort/sjw-and-depression.htm

Torakx

St john Wort is not very effective at all in treating most cases of depression,if any.
Yes it(garlic) can interfere with cell biology and can have adverse effects.
But it is natural the adverse effects are not an issue at the required dosage for say chest infections or ear aches. A non issue with ear aches..
One adverse effect is thinning of the blood. So it can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your condition and if you over dose.

I guess it's my thinking that there is good and bad to be found in both sides of the arguement between pharma and natural.
If you said all pharma products and contributions had no use, I might argue they had some uses.
So I can't agree that natural remedies have no benefit, for the same reasons.
For most common illnesses relating to digestion(which covers a massive amount of diseases that have been separated), I would say that natural remedies are more effective overall, with the correct treatment and with treating the root causes in mind, as apposed to symptoms.

For other things I might see a use for pharma products.
But a lot of the time, I make do with natural..
I had an infected tooth a while back. I started with painkillers. But after stuffing some garlic into the hole in the tooth, the pain went away.
After day 2 of that, the garlic had seeped into the abcess and killed the infection. i was then able to get the tooth pulled. If I had used antibiotics I would have taken a massive hit to my immune system.

I have been trying to think of a situation where I would need pharma products, but it's difficult.
But for sure, some things I really do need a doctor for.
So I am kind of in betwen the two. We don't need to be bothering doctors with colds and things like depression, fatigue, infections etc. Theyshould be spending time working on serious issues.
Right now it seems to me that it is allabout moneyin the end.
and if we look at both sides discussed in this thread, we can all see that both sides are also in it for the money.

What annoys me is the ignorance and misleading. And it is what annoys you also about the natural side I think

jh79

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2002/nov/26/science.highereducation

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/sep/20/fulham-farewell-magath-felix-madcap

These articles reminded me of this thread

jh79

The National Center for Complimentary and Alternative Medicine NCCAM pops up quite a lot on Mercola.

http://nccam.nih.gov

Here is a blog that questions the need for NCCAM and that government funds could be better used

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-national-center-for-complementary-and-alternative-medicine-nccam-your-tax-dollars-hard-at-work/

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/our-visit-with-nccam/

Here is one of their articles on Mercola

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/9-reasons-to-completely-ignore-joseph-mercola-and-natural-news/

But NCCAM has wasted some research funds on some clinical trials

"Some evidence indicates that taking garlic can slightly lower blood cholesterol levels; studies have shown positive effects for short-term (1 to 3 months) use. However, an NCCAM-funded study on the safety and effectiveness of three garlic preparations (fresh garlic, dried powdered garlic tablets, and aged garlic extract tablets) for lowering blood cholesterol levels found no effect."

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/garlic/ataglance.htm

An NCCAM-funded study of the well-characterized ginkgo product EGb–761 found it ineffective in lowering the overall incidence of dementia and Alzheimer's disease in the elderly. Further analysis of the same data also found ginkgo to be ineffective in slowing cognitive decline, lowering blood pressure, or reducing the incidence of hypertension.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/ginkgo/ataglance.htm

Several small studies suggest that saw palmetto may be effective for treating BPH symptoms. However, a 2011 NCCAM-cofunded study in 369 older men demonstrated that saw palmetto extract administered at up to three times the standard daily dose (320 mg) did not reduce the urinary symptoms associated with BPH more than placebo. In addition, a 2009 review of the research concluded that saw palmetto has not been shown to be more effective than placebo for this use.

In 2006, an NIH-funded study of 225 men with moderate-to-severe BPH found no improvement with 320 mg of saw palmetto daily for 1 year versus placebo.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/palmetto/ataglance.htm

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2002/nov/26/science.highereducation

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/sep/20/fulham-farewell-magath-felix-madcap

These articles reminded me of this thread

jh79 wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2002/nov/26/science.highereducation

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/sep/20/fulham-farewell-magath-felix-madcap

These articles reminded me of this thread

jh79 wrote: »

I always thought St John's Wort was proven to be effective but it seems it is still just a maybe.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/stjohnswort/sjw-and-depression.htm

Not one of these links you posted even refers to or has anything to do with a conspiracy theory, maybe you should start a blog somewhere

There are more possible CT's in the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Food_and_Drug_Administration


I also posted posted a link with billions of dollars in fines paid by big pharma for issues far more serious then Mercola ever could accomplish.

The GlaxoSmithKline whistle-blower case in which Thorpe was a plaintiff included allegations the company encouraged health care providers to prescribe antidepressants to children when the FDA had not approved the drugs for pediatric use. Glaxo agreed to pay $3 billion to the federal government to settle the case, the largest health care false-claims act settlement ever.

Why not focus on that ?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Not one of these links you posted even refers to or has anything to do with a conspiracy theory, maybe you should start a blog somewhere

There are more possible CT's in the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Food_and_Drug_Administration


I also posted posted a link with billions of dollars in fines paid by big pharma for issues far more serious then Mercola ever could accomplish.



Why not focus on that ?

What is there to focus on the regulators intervened and they were punished.

The links I provided show that the idea that herbs/supplements etc have a place in medicine, beyond that as a resource to be researched by natural product chemists as done already, is a myth encouraged by the gready and deluded to exploit gullible and vulnerable people .

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

What is there to focus on the regulators intervened and they were punished.

Selling powerful drugs to children when they couldn't

And this is just one of many cases.

Also plenty of interesting CT angles in the wiki I posted

jh79 wrote: »

The links I provided show that the idea that herbs/supplements etc have a place in medicine, beyond that as a resource to be researched by natural product chemists as done already, is a myth encouraged by the gready and deluded to exploit gullible and vulnerable people .

Then post a specific claim/article/anything where it is clear that there is a conspiracy taking place .... And not some general article from Quackwatch....

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Selling powerful drugs to children when they couldn't

And this is just one of many cases.

Also plenty of interesting CT angles in the wiki I posted



Then post a specific claim/article/anything where it is clear that there is a conspiracy taking place .... And not some general article from Quackwatch....

Anti vaccines propaganda on mercola fits the bill only purpose is scaremongering based on zero science while at the same time promoting his natural remedies . See the link by science based medicine on Mercola.

jh79

Big pharma threads are well represented , very few critical on Mercola/Natural News

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Anti vaccines propaganda on mercola fits the bill only purpose is scaremongering based on zero science while at the same time promoting his natural remedies . See the link by science based medicine on Mercola.

Yes i read that

Where is the conspiracy other then they counter Mercola's claims ?

If I want to sell you a bottle of holy water that I believe can cure you from any illness what Am i conspiring to then ?

Be specific ... not some lazy copy paste of whole articles and then expect others to find the possible conspiracy.