Mercola / Natural News as sources

Torakx

Thanks. I understand the basic idea of the process and that some good can come of deriving substances from plants.

jh79

Torakx wrote: »

Thanks. I understand the basic idea of the process and that some good can come of deriving substances from plants.

But you seem to believe that herbs in tbeir natural state can be used to combat serious illnesses but the truth is they can't. Their is no conspiracy to this.

Torakx

jh79 wrote: »

But you seem to believe that herbs in tbeir natural state can be used to combat serious illnesses but the truth is they can't. Their is no conspiracy to this.

That is probably how it seems at first glance, or maybe from how I write and rant

I am not all about natural herbs and against synthetic cures. I like what works most efficiently and effectively, as the best choice to make on medicines.
I use extracts myself instead of pharma antibiotics.. I have had whatcould be seen as dangerous infections where I was told to take anti biotics. My "back garden" counterparts do the same job in a majority of cases and they do not cause serious illness in the future.
My main philosophy with health is that our bodies are already equipped to deal with many diseases, IF we give it a chance to do it's job.
In the case of anti biotics for sure, it is doing more damage than good overall.
My main gripe with doctors is that they could be curing so many people by focusing on what these people put into their bodies that prevents them healing properly.
Instead the idea is sold to the majority that you can take a pill to fix an issue, instead of working a little harder to fix the problem.

The pill in itself is just a pill. It does what it does, good and/or bad.
I'l happily take a pill, as long as I know what is in it and what exactly it does and why.
The reason I would default to nature when I am unsure, is simply because that is tried and tested.
The only time I need a doctor is when my diet of fresh veg is not enough.
That is what doctors should be for.
Not for creating more serious issues in many cases from small issues.

You mentioned no conspiracy there. What conspiracy do you mean exactly?
And are you sure we are talking about the same thing?

What is counted as serious illness?
If you think Chronic Fatigue is a serious illness then, in that particular case I am saying you can cure it literally by using plants you can grow in your back garden.
I am not sure of what other serious illnesses I mentioned that can be cured with food though.

A quick thought.
Consider how many sick people take medicines and vaccinnes for flu viruses each year and whatthat can dofor the virus itself.
Then consider how little natural anti virals are used. Who do you thinkis more likely to have a better chance? The one with the immune system the virus has little experience with, or the one that it has been training on for decades? I know I generalized on the nature of the virus, but it is not important to point.
When people allstart taking garlic for a flu I may start to worry whatwillbecome of the flu next. But of course by then I will have switched up defenses to coconut oil or soemthing like that haha

jh79

The conspiracy i was referring to is that "big pharma" suppresses info on the benefits of natural remedies and supplements. There just isn't anything to suppress.

Your right about lifestyle choices being the cause of diseases but I don't think you can lay the blame for people's poor choice on the doctors.

Torakx

jh79 wrote: »

The conspiracy i was referring to is that "big pharma" suppresses info on the benefits of natural remedies and supplements. There just isn't anything to suppress.

Your right about lifestyle choices being the cause of diseases but I don't think you can lay the blame for people's poor choice on the doctors.

The Ct I was putting forward is more like big Pharma controlling the opinion and education of doctors/nurses, who prescribe and administer the drugs on the front lines.

Natural remedies can work. So can unnatural remedies.
At certain times one is more suitable than the other. It's my view that profits are dictating what the average Joe is recieving and not according to their overall health benefits or needs.

Regarding blame. I don't know.
There is for sure a serious problem with the drugs they give people. It's making many people ill.
The natural methods for the same issues do not cause these other illnesses and are just as effective or at the worst , nearly as effective, depending on what we talk about exactly.
I haven't been to a doctor in many years, so I can't say what the response would be for a bad chest infection. In the "old days" when I still trusted a stranger to be in the know, it was anti biotics.
In most cases I can safely say there is no need.

Actually.. a friend of mine was on strong anti biotics earlier this year for a bad chest infection, bording on a pneumonia relapse.
It came back a few times over the year and he was given more antibiotics.

I advised him to lower his intake of sugar to prevent feeding any infections and to take garlic while also drinking lots of water, to kill the infection and loosen it up to clear his lungs.
He told me he noticed a massive difference the morning after trying this and that his chest already cleared up a lot. Previously his doctor offered something to supress the cough! as well as anti biotics(malpractice?).
And I am willing to bet, if he keeps my advice, he will probably never need a doctor again for chest infections, that are anything less than pneumonia or bronchitis. Personally I would probably bet my life on Garlic versus pneumonia as well..just being honest lol

Garlic might be a good example of a natural cure for many things that are currently handled with drugs.
Are the drugs that much better, that we should ignore the damage they do?
I would argue in some cases(like garlic) they are not as good, let alone better.
What are the side effects of Garlic? The dangers of persistant use(within reason)?
Now compare it's pharma counterparts(anti biotics and anti fungals). And if you can still say that natural remedies have no benefit, then I think you are just fooling yourself or have no idea of the future issues that anti biotics bring to everyone.
Natural remedies are not fake remedies a lot of the time. Many are just alternatives to synthetics. Even if the pharma drugs are more concentrated versions, it is not sensible to write off less effective natural cures that have little to no negative side effects compared.

Why is it you think anti biotics that kill much needed digestive bacteria are not as good as garlic that does not kill said bacteria? If the recovery is the same and the end results are much better with garlic(considering the future health of the patients gut and immune system), why is it that there is nothing to supress.
When you say natural remedies, do you mean things like Garlic?
I can't imagine so. As you would then be saying, Garlic has no benefits.

If you meant Garlic has no benefits over synthetic drugs, I will pre-empt you now and remind you of the intestinal issue relating to bacteria(one of our main immune systems) being knocked out of balance. Bacteria that is formed when we are children,partly thanks to our mothers breast milk.
That stuff is not easy to replace.
I would say impossible to replace fully, once gone. any alternative in my limit view may be a different species slightly and not quite the same. But I'm just guessing on that last part.

Sorry, I know I write too much...

King Mob

Torakx wrote: »

Why is it you think anti biotics that kill much needed digestive bacteria are not as good as garlic that does not kill said bacteria? If the recovery is the same and the end results are much better with garlic(considering the future health of the patients gut and immune system), why is it that there is nothing to supress.

How do you know that the Garlic actually worked?
How can you be sure that your one single friend wasn't cured by something else or that his problem just fixed itself?
How can you be sure that he isn't just mistaken about how well it worked, or is having a placebo effect or is just humoring you and lying about it?

Anecdotes like yours can be much more convincing to a layperson than actual science and for types like Mercola and other promoters, positive ones are more likely to be posted than negative ones. But they are not very reliable if you examine them with any real scrutiny.

Additionally, how does the garlic kill the bad bacteria in the lungs, but not the good bacteria in the gut? What is the chemical process there?
Are you even sure that it actually cures the under lying problem at all or are you basing it all on the fact that your friend had one symptom, now he doesn't?
Cause that sounds like what you claim medical science's flaw is.

jh79

Can you give an example of a natural remedy that is effective in its natural state?

Garlic contains a chemical ( no different than those produced in a lab) that might have medicinal effects but garlic in its natural state will not consistently contain enough to produce an effect

Doctors don't promote natural remedies because of some big pharma conspiracy but because they don't work.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Can you give an example of a natural remedy that is effective in its natural state ?

St. John's worth maybe ?

weisses

Ginger ......... Helps Reduce Nausea from Chemotherapy

degrassinoel

Dock leaves, seriously

the oil from them neutralizes the sting from nettles almost immediately

jh79

weisses wrote: »

St. John's worth maybe ?

Difficult question to answer isn't it?

And like any pharma compound it has side effects hence prescription only, when alt med types go on about natural remedies not having side effects they are kinda right its just they don't really have any effect good or bad.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Ginger ......... Helps Reduce Nausea from Chemotherapy

Nausea in general?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Ginger ......... Helps Reduce Nausea from Chemotherapy

http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/84/3/367.full.pdf

Maybe.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/84/3/367.full.pdf

Maybe.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/chemotherapy/expert-answers/ginger-for-nausea/faq-20057891

Studies 10 year later then yours saying it does work

Some reputable resources are even stating

Recent preliminary results in animals show some effect in slowing or preventing tumor growth. While these results are not well understood, they deserve further study. Still, it is too early in the research process to say whether ginger will have the same effect in humans

jh79

Recent preliminary results in animals show some effect in slowing or preventing tumor growth. While these results are not well understood, they deserve further study. Still, it is too early in the research process to say whether ginger will have the same effect in humans

Still a maybe

jh79

A more likely scenario is that they will discover which of the chemicals in ginger is producing the small effect and then either isolate it or through structure activity relationship studies produce a synthetic analogue of it and it will become an FDA approved big pharma drug , in other words actual medicine.

weisses

King Mob wrote: »

How do you know that the Garlic actually worked?
How can you be sure that your one single friend wasn't cured by something else or that his problem just fixed itself?
How can you be sure that he isn't just mistaken about how well it worked, or is having a placebo effect or is just humoring you and lying about it?

Some more extensive material about garlic


http://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/herb/garlic

They have a whole database .....

Apparently its also very effective against high cholesterol

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20858178

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Recent preliminary results in animals show some effect in slowing or preventing tumor growth. While these results are not well understood, they deserve further study. Still, it is too early in the research process to say whether ginger will have the same effect in humans

Still a maybe

That is regarding cancer growth ... It is working against nausea.

jh79

Amongst reviewed studies, 22 natural products were found effective in the treatment of hyperlipidemia that deserve further works to isolate and characterization of their constituents to reach novel therapeutic and more effective agents.

So garlic has the potential to produce an actual medicinal compound ie a drug

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

A more likely scenario is that they will discover which of the chemicals in ginger is producing the small effect and then either isolate it or through structure activity relationship studies produce a synthetic analogue of it and it will become an FDA approved big pharma drug , in other words actual medicine.

That is some nice shifting of the goalposts

Ginger in its natural form is effective against nausea ...

If you don't like the answers regarding your questions then don't ask them in the first place

jh79

weisses wrote: »

That is some nice shifting of the goalposts

Ginger in its natural form is effective against nausea ...

If you don't like the answers regarding your questions then don't ask them in the first place

Is it more effective than commercially available drug products?

Ginger combating nausea isn't exactly earth shattering and is still a maybe.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23550785

ll studies were assessed on methodological quality and their limitations were identified. Studies were mixed in their support of ginger as an anti-CINV treatment in patients receiving chemotherapy, with three demonstrating a positive effect, two in favor but with caveats, and two showing no effect on measures of CINV

jh79

weisses wrote: »

That is some nice shifting of the goalposts

Ginger in its natural form is effective against nausea ...

If you don't like the answers regarding your questions then don't ask them in the first place

It is not shifting of goal post that is how natural product chemistry works

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3721181/

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Can you give an example of a natural remedy that is effective in its natural state?

Garlic contains a chemical ( no different than those produced in a lab) that might have medicinal effects but garlic in its natural state will not consistently contain enough to produce an effect

Doctors don't promote natural remedies because of some big pharma conspiracy but because they don't work.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17093154


This is an analysis of a large data set from Swiss and Italian case-control studies conducted between 1991 and 2004 to determine the association between frequency of onion and garlic use and cancer. Researchers found a protective role of a moderate frequency of onion consumption against colorectal, laryngeal, and ovarian cancers. The association was also significant for cancers of oral cavity and esophagus, but not for prostate, breast, or renal cell cancers. Data also showed that a moderate frequency of garlic intake was inversely associated with colorectal and renal cell cancers, and a high frequency was significantly and inversely related to all cancers, except for breast and prostate cancers.
Onion and Garlic may confer protection against certain common cancers.

weisses

I gave you a view examples of a natural remedy that is effective in its natural state. as you asked

And i only scratched the surface

jh79

weisses wrote: »

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17093154


This is an analysis of a large data set from Swiss and Italian case-control studies conducted between 1991 and 2004 to determine the association between frequency of onion and garlic use and cancer. Researchers found a protective role of a moderate frequency of onion consumption against colorectal, laryngeal, and ovarian cancers. The association was also significant for cancers of oral cavity and esophagus, but not for prostate, breast, or renal cell cancers. Data also showed that a moderate frequency of garlic intake was inversely associated with colorectal and renal cell cancers, and a high frequency was significantly and inversely related to all cancers, except for breast and prostate cancers.
Onion and Garlic may confer protection against certain common cancers.

Not much use if you already have cancer. If you have a genetic predisposition to a certain cancer and the worst happens what then ? Onions and Garlic followed by some ginger ?

We are talking about the effectiveness of natural remedies v pharma compounds.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

I gave you a view examples of a natural remedy that is effective in its natural state. as you asked

And i only scratched the surface

Ginger may be effective against nausea, that is it?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

It is not shifting of goal post that is how natural product chemistry works

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3721181/

I addressed your question ... You did not ask if there where natural remedies out there that works even better after being altered into a more potent medicine

jh79

jh79 wrote: »

Ginger may be effective against nausea, that is it?

And St Johns Wort.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

I addressed your question ... You did not ask if there where natural remedies out there that works even better after being altered into a more potent medicine

Your onions garlic thing does not show them to be effective in treating cancer.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

I addressed your question ... You did not ask if there where natural remedies out there that works even better after being altered into a more potent medicine

Effective natural remedies, to be a remedy you need something to treat. So what illnesses have you show can be treated with a natural remedy in its natural state?

One , St John's Wort.