Mercola / Natural News as sources

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Can't watch the video now but from memory some UK councils don't agree with it and that some biochemist also based on some in vitro work. So what. Toxicity on a cellular level doesn't mean toxicity in a clinical sense. Drug discovery would be a lot easier if this was the case. Hence animal studies , clinical trials etc.

What were the doses of fluoride used etc. You still have no evidence of toxicity. So no politics at play cause there is nothing to hide therefore no valid CT.

Your remember incorrectly ... And also your above conclusion has nothing to do with presenting a valid CT ... which they do

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Your remember incorrectly ... And also your above conclusion has nothing to do with presenting a valid CT ... which they do

Give us a quick summary. Who is conspiring what and why and what evidence is being ignored?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Give us a quick summary. Who is conspiring what and why and what evidence is being ignored?

Nope ... Its there in the video.. and this thread is not about Fluoride (which is a valid CT btw)

It was only a reply to show CT was discussed widely in that thread although admitted the op did not presented a CT .... but after a few posts the CT angle was presented

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

If you believe him to be genuine then there is no CT.

Just to clear something up

You presented that quackwatch piece in which it clearly states

I don't doubt Mercola's sincerity—and I know nothing about how he allocates his income. But I recently made some interesting observations.

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html

So what is the issue ?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Nope ... Its there in the video.. and this thread is not about Fluoride (which is a valid CT btw)

It was only a reply to show CT was discussed widely in that thread although admitted the op did not presented a CT .... but after a few posts the CT angle was presented

Fluoridation is as valid a CT as this thread. To fit your definition of a CT research showing fluoride to be toxic at sub 1ppm levels would need to be suppressed. It hasn't being what research there is shows no such thing.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Just to clear something up

You presented that quackwatch piece in which it clearly states



http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html

So what is the issue ?

I doubt his sincerity , my personal opinion based on his medical background I can't accept even a leaving cert student would entertain some of his theories.

jh79

Would an off-topic thread make this work where the merits of certain sources can be discussed without a CT being necessarily at play?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

I doubt his sincerity , my personal opinion based on his medical background I can't accept even a leaving cert student would entertain some of his theories.

But the link you used to claim the conspiracy doesn't doubt his sincerity .... where does that leave the CT ?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Fluoridation is as valid a CT as this thread. To fit your definition of a CT research showing fluoride to be toxic at sub 1ppm levels would need to be suppressed. It hasn't being what research there is shows no such thing.

No ... part of the CT has nothing to do with the levels of fluoride used

anto3473

I'm a Medical Scientist I've spent years studying disease processes as well as how the human body normally functions, I will still learning for the rest of my life and know that the vast amounts of information I have access to and the small amount I can keep in my brain does not even come close to the tip of the iceberg of what we know already about how diseases including cancer work.

Cancer is in a nutshell the loss of control of the cell cycle. All the cells in your body have the same genome - however different genes are switched on and switched off in different cell types usually by covering or uncovering the DNA strand with proteins at specific locations. This is what tells a pancreas cell that it is part of a pancreas lets say and not part of a foot and how we develop from a single cell into an adult human with hundreds of different cell types. Certain cell types are meant to replicate a lot such as those that physically wear out such as the gut lining or skin and some are meant to be more durable like cardiac muscle which you have for life. The cells have genes which both promote replication and the controlled self destruction of the cell which are balanced in each cell type to ensure numbers remain right. This is where the simplicity ends. I remember in college spending 4 months studying 1 step in the pathway shown in this image.

http://www.qiagen.com/geneglobe/static/images/Pathways/EGF%20Pathway.jpg

The image outlines the signaling involved when a cell needs to send out a signal instructing other cells to provide it with a greater blood supply, this is one pathway out of thousands of other ones and I only looked at one step out of it.

The idea that there is a single cause or cure or symptom for all types of cancer is utterly insane, or that cancer is a type of fungus :eek: and so is the idea that scientists are hiding a cure. The vast majority of people working in healthcare research are doing it to help people because believe it or not the money is not all that good, considering the work that goes into it and being humans like the rest of you we get sick and die of the same things everyone else does its in our interest to work hard to find effective treatments for diseases. Some of the things written on here made my brain hurt.

anto3473

Another one that really get's my goat is water fluoridation, it has been known for a long long time that in areas where there was higher levels of sodium fluoride in the groundwater people had better dental health, better heart health, the elderly had less fractures (this in particular will take years off your life if you break a knee in your 70s ect..) and has a host of other benefits.

The groundwater in Ireland in most areas is particularly low in fluoride containing salts which is why we need to supplement it more than in most countries. Simple as, no big conspiracy.

weisses

anto3473 wrote: »

The groundwater in Ireland in most areas is particularly low in fluoride containing salts which is why we need to supplement it more than in most countries. Simple as, no big conspiracy.

Fact is that 82 % of water usage comes from surface water .... any statistics regarding fluoride levels occurring in that ?

Only 10% used is actually groundwater

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Fact is that 82 % of water usage comes from surface water .... any statistics regarding fluoride levels occurring in that ?

Only 10% used is actually groundwater

Doesn't matter the levels are controlled at 0.7ppm. Would love to know what it would be without the extra but could never find that out.

jh79

anto3473 wrote: »

I'm a Medical Scientist I've spent years studying disease processes as well as how the human body normally functions, I will still learning for the rest of my life and know that the vast amounts of information I have access to and the small amount I can keep in my brain does not even come close to the tip of the iceberg of what we know already about how diseases including cancer work.

Cancer is in a nutshell the loss of control of the cell cycle. All the cells in your body have the same genome - however different genes are switched on and switched off in different cell types usually by covering or uncovering the DNA strand with proteins at specific locations. This is what tells a pancreas cell that it is part of a pancreas lets say and not part of a foot and how we develop from a single cell into an adult human with hundreds of different cell types. Certain cell types are meant to replicate a lot such as those that physically wear out such as the gut lining or skin and some are meant to be more durable like cardiac muscle which you have for life. The cells have genes which both promote replication and the controlled self destruction of the cell which are balanced in each cell type to ensure numbers remain right. This is where the simplicity ends. I remember in college spending 4 months studying 1 step in the pathway shown in this image.

http://www.qiagen.com/geneglobe/static/images/Pathways/EGF%20Pathway.jpg

The image outlines the signaling involved when a cell needs to send out a signal instructing other cells to provide it with a greater blood supply, this is one pathway out of thousands of other ones and I only looked at one step out of it.

The idea that there is a single cause or cure or symptom for all types of cancer is utterly insane, or that cancer is a type of fungus :eek: and so is the idea that scientists are hiding a cure. The vast majority of people working in healthcare research are doing it to help people because believe it or not the money is not all that good, considering the work that goes into it and being humans like the rest of you we get sick and die of the same things everyone else does its in our interest to work hard to find effective treatments for diseases. Some of the things written on here made my brain hurt.

As a scientist do you find it plausible that an MD could believe or entertain the idea that cancer is a fungus? I don't and I believe Mercola promotes crazy theories to find irrational people to take advantage of.

anto3473

weisses wrote: »

Fact is that 82 % of water usage comes from surface water .... any statistics regarding fluoride levels occurring in that ?

Only 10% used is actually groundwater

It goes to reason that surface water would have even less fluoride than ground water, since it has less contact with the rocks containing the fluoride salts. I don't actually know where to begin looking for that particular statistic. I trust that the people working for our local authorities are doing their job properly since I don't have time to worry about absolutely everything all the time.

anto3473

jh79 wrote: »

As a scientist do you find it plausible that an MD could believe or entertain the idea that cancer is a fungus? I don't and I believe Mercola promotes crazy theories to find irrational people to take advantage of.

People believe all kinds of weird stuff, being a doctor does not necessarily make someone immune to this trait. However he would have seen tumors with all kinds of weird stuff that is clearly not a fungus (like hair and teeth growing in them) during his training and had to learn what lots of different cancer and normal cells looked like under a microscope and what the genetics of a cancer cell looks like in a PCR test. Plus the term "recognition of altered self cells" when it comes to the immune response to cancerous cells would have made up a chapter or two in his first year books.

A doctor would also know a lot about fungi that affect people like athletes foot, PCP pneumonia, a bunch of other lung diseases and know they look totally different to cancer. So this guy either genuinely does not believe his own eyes or is trying to con people.

It's human nature to look for patterns and to find them where they don't exist - for instance the constellations of stars are not actual bears or hunters ect yet our ancestors saw these "patterns" in the sky and knew when to harvest crops and which way was north and so on giving them a survival advantage and perpetuating a belief system. If you look hard enough you can even statistically prove that storks bring babies, the maths is right but the conclusion is clearly not. http://www.econ.queensu.ca/files/other/storks.pdf

anto3473

Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn’t work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It’s just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don’t see any tigers around, do you?
[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.
[Lisa refuses at first, then takes the exchange]

I wouldn't call everyone who believes a crazy or irrational theory crazy or irrational themselves, there's nothing wrong with coming to the wrong conclusion as long as your view changes when you get accurate and proper information. I fully expect that I must have the totally wrong ideas about at least some things I just don't know what they are yet :P

degrassinoel

People that buy these things aren't necessarily all stupid gullible people, having a life threatening disease/illness can make the smartest of people desperate and willing to try anything and everything to cure or to prolong their lives.

Keep an open mind folks.

weisses

anto3473 wrote: »

I'm a Medical Scientist I've spent years studying disease processes

How long did you study to become a medical scientist ?

anto3473

degrassinoel wrote: »

People that buy these things aren't necessarily all stupid gullible people, having a life threatening disease/illness can make the smartest of people desperate and willing to try anything and everything to cure or to prolong their lives.

Keep an open mind folks.

Fully agree, and a good friend of mine is actually homeopathic "professional" I know lots of people that go to church and even some Fine Gael voters, I consider all this to be nonsense of the highest order but it doesn't make them bad people. As long as they aren't in it to exploit or harm people it's OK in my book.

anto3473

weisses wrote: »

How long did you study to become a medical scientist ?

5 years, 4 in college and one in a hospital. By the end of it you realize you know a lot less than when you started, you don't stop studying when you qualify either... that's when the work really begins.

jh79

degrassinoel wrote: »

People that buy these things aren't necessarily all stupid gullible people, having a life threatening disease/illness can make the smartest of people desperate and willing to try anything and everything to cure or to prolong their lives.

Keep an open mind folks.

Those who aren't ill I would describe as gullible those that are , vulnerable.

jh79

anto3473 wrote: »

5 years, 4 in college and one in a hospital. By the end of it you realize you know a lot less than when you started, you don't stop studying when you qualify either... that's when the work really begins.

So mostly biochemistry but with a clinical perspective?

anto3473

jh79 wrote: »

So mostly biochemistry but with a clinical perspective?

Yeah there are 5 specalities Microbiology, Biochemistry, Histology (tumors mostly), Haematology (study of blood disorders) and Blood transfusion. You do all 5 for the first 4 years then you take one subject as your major (2/3 of the workload) and one as a minor in your final year. You also do genetics and immunology. The course is called biomedical science in DIT and UCC and medical science in GMIT the only other place in Ireland that does it is Ulster University in Colraine Co. Derry. It's a really great course however job prospects are not great here at the minute.

But yeah lot's of biochem.. which somehow becomes more about algebra than chemistry as you get through it... it's a hard slog but well worth it

jh79

anto3473 wrote: »

Yeah there are 5 specalities Microbiology, Biochemistry, Histology (tumors mostly), Haematology (study of blood disorders) and Blood transfusion. You do all 5 for the first 4 years then you take one subject as your major (2/3 of the workload) and one as a minor in your final year. You also do genetics and immunology. The course is called biomedical science in DIT and UCC and medical science in GMIT the only other place in Ireland that does it is Ulster University in Colraine Co. Derry. It's a really great course however job prospects are not great here at the minute.

But yeah lot's of biochem.. which somehow becomes more about algebra than chemistry as you get through it... it's a hard slog but well worth it

The Master program in NUIG is really good , A PhD within the Remedi group would be worth considering.

anto3473

jh79 wrote: »

The Master program in NUIG is really good , A PhD within the Remedi group would be worth considering.

Believe me I've applied for nearly every moderatly related post grad position and only had one interview, the competition for places is pretty severe, and maybe I smell bad or something... I was roughly in the middle of a class of 40 but yeah i'll look that one up.

jh79

anto3473 wrote: »

Yeah there are 5 specalities Microbiology, Biochemistry, Histology (tumors mostly), Haematology (study of blood disorders) and Blood transfusion. You do all 5 for the first 4 years then you take one subject as your major (2/3 of the workload) and one as a minor in your final year. You also do genetics and immunology. The course is called biomedical science in DIT and UCC and medical science in GMIT the only other place in Ireland that does it is Ulster University in Colraine Co. Derry. It's a really great course however job prospects are not great here at the minute.

But yeah lot's of biochem.. which somehow becomes more about algebra than chemistry as you get through it... it's a hard slog but well worth it

Do you still have finger prints on your thumbs after prepping histology slides, that thing is lethal!

anto3473

jh79 wrote: »

Do you still have finger prints on your thumbs after prepping histology slides, that thing is lethal!

Yes, and I still have my thumbs too somehow :rolleyes: I done histo as my minor and havnt touched a microtome since college. Anyone working in histo long enough will cut themself eventually... I didnt thankfully, I managed to burn myself once though with hot glycerol mounting medium though.

3rd degree burns... for science ! http://lowres.cartoonstock.com/science-scientist-lab-laboratory-physicist-physics-nki0263_low.jpg

Torakx

I had a quick browse through the claims against Mercola.
http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html

Some of them I am sure are valid and some I am not so sure about.
But remember the FDA is also an organisation/business and not a charity.
To be more precise, a regulatory body(self regulating too?) that helps to enable a corrupted system.

One of my biggest gripes and the one that had the most profound effect on myself, was antibiotics.

Antibiotics in their various forms, do help to cure illness. So they can be FDA passed.
They also have really negative side effects. It's like nuking your body, killing friends and foe. I often associate it in my head with Chemo Therapy.
Some alternatives do not have the same negative effects, yet they cannot be patented, as you can grow them in your back garden.
This is one reason why Marijuana is generally not a legal pain killer.
It's just too effective at many things to compete with.
And most of the negative things it brings are more negative for a society based on capitalism, than they are for the individual or any free society if one existed.

I see Mercoal as just being in the same boat as the other snake oil salesmen. He will often say I am sure, that so and so can help cure such and such a disease, when I can do the same for next to nothing of the cost.
This is a lot like going to a doctor who prescribes you other products that they are familiar with. Except the product a doctors supplies is passed by a corrupt organisation, supported by large corporations.
Mercola is small fish getting bigger out of big fish failings/left overs.

The difference between a regular MD and some sites like Mercolas, might be that they(the sites) give information on issues and why such things might or "will" help.
From my experience with the pharaceutical doctors, it's just looking for symptoms and then figuring how to stamp them out.
This is obviously really really good for business.
If I was all about making money in this industry and had no empathy, it would be natural to attack symptoms and let the underlyuing issues persist. This willnaturally progress to more symptoms usually of a ddifferent and seemingly unrelated nature. Which leads to more business. Until the patient is out of money or strength.

"oh you have a sick stomach, take some nexium to settle it" Not " oh you have a sick stomach, tell me what you have been putting in there and we can try find out WHY you have a sick stomach".

If someone is giving you their time or services, it is for a reason.
Mercolas reason is to clean upthe mess that the regular doctors leave behind and make a very nice profit too.Or soit appears to me from a broad look at the industry.

I showed earlier how the NHS says that there is no known cure for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

I tried the FDA just now quickly.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/Guidances/UCM388568.pdf
They seem to be looking for a drug to combat tiredness, not CFS...
Being tired isn't the problem with CFS, it's an underlying series of biological issues causing that symptom.
But, if they can find another drug to put under that unbrella, they can keep all the people with CFS and the many more that I think will exponentially come along with it.

I had what would be diagnosed as CFS(and chronic as well) and many other things that were a mystery or diagnosed as something else.
I as told at age 18 I had collic and was given a course of treatment, for collic. Of course I got sick much worse later on. But the symptom was tackled at the time...
In reality that first time I was diagnosed with collic, was one of the first notable symptoms of something that could have been fixed right there. Instead I went form one doctor toanother over the years as issues gradually got worse. Until around age 29-30 where I started helath research tofind answers. Which I found in abundance with practice.
Is it really ignorance to blame, at the root of this industry? Especially considering the profits made.


I have experienced other people diagnosed with CFS recovering to their full energy again.
Yet there is no known cure...
Personally I think that there are many people trying to find cures who are medically trained. But are failing due to lack of information and being sent in the wrong direction.
Because if the world finally realised the root causes, it would put a massive dent in profits for pharma corporations.
Actually, the times i have been toMercolas sites were during periods of health research on this topic and that is one of the many places I found ideas and information on how the body functions generally.
So in a large way, people like Mercola are taking away more business, by creatign awaress and a cynical impression of the medical industry(which I think is a healthy way to think, when your health is involved).


http://www.fedorapharma.com/site/antibiotic_market

Increasing sales of antibiotics worldwide
The global antibiotic market generated an estimated $42 billion USD in sales in 2009. With an average annual growth rate of 4%, antibiotic sales could reach $60 billion USD by 2015.

That's a lot of money to lose and it is just relating to antibiotics. Not even counting hormone treatments, which is yet another road to CFS/ME and many other diseases.

So we have the official medical society on one side and these unnoficial medical representatives on the other side.
Both sides exploiting ignorance.
Both sides helping people and making mistakes.

In my view Mercola is just a tiny little drop in the pond.
He has become quite rich from this business and he has left their society. Naturally they will not like this and seek to label him as negatively as possible. This is business as usual and he is taking their business now to a level that is worth acting on.

He might claim to nearly cure cancer, or maybe cure cancer? i don't know...
That's fair enough, he is making claims that might not be true.
However I see the same from the other side all the time as well.
Making claims that are seemingly out of ignorance(no treatment/cure for CFS), excluding natural cures that cannot be patented, in favour of treatments that are not as effective in many cases.

I see far more damage done from the widely accepted vendor of drugs, than from any drug vendor I have ever come across in any area of life!
To me it's like a slow holocaust. Or some giant decades long experiment on how to create a nation of docile, weak slaves, dependant on sugar, with a shorter life expectancy.

If all this talk seems a bit crazy, you should hear the theories I consider to myself, relating to the knock on effects of mass anti biotic/hormone treatment as we evolve.
Increases in autism, insulin resistance,alzheimers disease and cancers as examples.

jh79

"Some alternatives do not have the same negative effects, yet they cannot be patented, as you can grow them in your back garden.
This is one reason why Marijuana is generally not a legal pain killer.
It's just too effective at many things to compete with.
And most of the negative things it brings are more negative for a society based on capitalism...."

Herbs and the like have no real clinical effect in their natural form. Plenty of pharma compound s are essentially mimics of chemicals found in natural products , but these chemicals needed some alterations to their core structure or became the inspiration for a synthetic product or to be isolated and concentrated to be become a viable medicinal compound eg taxol. The idea that cures to serious illnesses can be found in your garden and that big pharma suppresses such is a myth.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paclitaxel


I linked to a paper earlier highlighting the number of FDA approved drugs derived from natural substances released over the last few decades.