Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

yipeeeee

Ah look if anyone in the world is not happy in another country they know what to do.

That goes for Irish, whites, blacks,chinese , Muslims etc.

Really sick of the constant whining at this stage.

gallag

rozeboosje wrote: »

Kindly explain how that fact allows you to make sweeping statements about 1.5 billion people who self identify as "Muslim"

Wasn't aware I did? how does the fact that over a third of UK muslim youths support killing apostates sit with you? Will you condemn it or instantly go on the offensive and look to justify or excuse it?

Timberrrrrrrr

gallag wrote: »

Wasn't aware I did? how does the fact that over a third of UK muslim youths support killing apostates sit with you? Will you condemn it or instantly go on the offensive and look to justify or excuse it?

I would like to see some hard evidence for a start.

alastair

gallag wrote: »

Wasn't aware I did? how does the fact that over a third of UK muslim youths support killing apostates sit with you? Will you condemn it or instantly go on the offensive and look to justify or excuse it?

Of those 1.5 billion Muslims living worldwide, particularly those living in Muslim majority states, how many actually live in societies where apostates are killed as a matter of law? Is it over, or under, a third? There's been ample opportunity for them, after all, to enshrine this belief into law, and then carry out this sentence, when apostasy arises.

Clearly it's a horrid and inexcusable belief to hold, but as a broad community, it's clearly not a belief that is actually acted upon to anywhere near those sort of figures. And that's a fact. So no, there's no excuse for that belief, but nor is there any excuse for pretending the consequence of majority muslim societies is the enforcement of that belief.

gallag

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I would like to see some hard evidence for a start.

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/

Timberrrrrrrr

gallag wrote: »

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/

:rolleyes:

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I would like to see some hard evidence for a start.

rozeboosje

gallag wrote: »

Wasn't aware I did? how does the fact that over a third of UK muslim youths support killing apostates sit with you? Will you condemn it or instantly go on the offensive and look to justify or excuse it?

Firstly, let's assume that your statistic is correct. I'm actually not convinced of that. But, hey, let's. Well then:

How does the fact that almost two thirds of UK Muslim youths do NOT support killing apostates sit with you? How do you justify posting your horse manure about "Islam" in the light of THAT fact?

I will wholeheartedly condemn violence and barbarity in the name of any religion or ideology. But I'm not willing to blame something like "Islam" on the basis of what SOME of its adherents do. I'm happy to accept that the community of people who call themselves "Muslim" have a problem they need to address, perhaps by educating their own people better on what Islam actually is as opposed to the radical noise coming out of the likes of ISIS and Al Qaeda. That's their problem to solve though, not mine. What I won't do, no matter how much you pontificate on threads like these, though, is join the ZOMGISLAM brigade.

gallag

alastair wrote: »

Of those 1.5 billion Muslims living worldwide, particularly those living in Muslim majority states, how many actually live in societies where apostates are killed as a matter of law? Is it over, or under, a third? There's been ample opportunity for them, after all, to enshrine this belief into law, and then carry out this sentence, when apostasy arises.

Clearly it's a horrid and inexcusable belief to hold, but as a broad community, it's clearly not a belief that is actually acted upon to anywhere near those sort of figures. And that's a fact. So no, there's no excuse for that belief, but nor is there any excuse for pretending the consequence of majority muslim societies is the enforcement of that belief.

A survey conducted by the Pew Research Center in 2010 found relatively widespread popular support for death penalty as a punishment for apostasy in Egypt (84% of respondents in favor of death penalty), Jordan (86% in favor), Indonesia (30% in favor), Pakistan (76% favor) and Nigeria (51% in favor).[114] Another survey conducted by Pew Research Center in 2012 among Muslim populations found little change in attitudes towards apostasy in Islamic countries it was able to conduct a survey. Death penalty for apostasy in Islam was favored by large majorities of Muslims in Egypt (86%), Jordan (82%), Afghanistan (79%), Pakistan (76%), Malaysia (62%), Palestinian Territories (66%); and a significant percentage of Muslims in Lebanon (46%), Bangladesh (44%), Iraq (42%), Tunisia (29%), Tajikistan (22%), Indonesia (18%) and Turkey (17%).[115] Governments of six Gulf countries - Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait - did not permit Pew Research to survey nationwide public opinion on apostasy in 2010 or 2012.

rozeboosje

NOT in favour (and, again, assuming you didn't pull your figures out of a deep dark place):

Egypt (14%), Jordan (18%), Afghanistan (21%), Pakistan (24%), Malaysia (38%), Palestinian Territories (34%); and a significant percentage of Muslims in Lebanon (54%), Bangladesh (56%), Iraq (58%), Tunisia (71%), Tajikistan (78%), Indonesia (82%) and Turkey (83%)

I'm happy to agree that the Egyptian etc. figures are quite disturbing, but add all the Muslims who do NOT support such barbaric punishments together, and you get a very large number of people who call themselves Muslim and who practice what they call Islam who do not support barbarity.

So, again, please explain from where you get the justification to tar all of "Islam" with the broad brush?

gallag

rozeboosje wrote: »

NOT in favour (and, again, assuming you didn't pull your figures out of a deep dark place):

Egypt (14%), Jordan (18%), Afghanistan (21%), Pakistan (24%), Malaysia (38%), Palestinian Territories (34%); and a significant percentage of Muslims in Lebanon (54%), Bangladesh (56%), Iraq (58%), Tunisia (71%), Tajikistan (78%), Indonesia (82%) and Turkey (83%)

I'm happy to agree that the Egyptian etc. figures are quite disturbing, but add all the Muslims who do NOT support such barbaric punishments together, and you get a very large number of people who call themselves Muslim and who practice what they call Islam who do not support barbarity.

So, again, please explain from where you get the justification to tar all of "Islam" with the broad brush?

where have a tared all of islam with the same brush? is that a strawman? I mean when presented with the information that the majority of Muslims would support cutting someone's head of of they tried to leave their religion you instead argued something I never said or done? is that a straw man?

alastair

gallag wrote: »

A survey conducted by the Pew Research Center in 2010 found relatively widespread popular support for death penalty as a punishment for apostasy in Egypt (84% of respondents in favor of death penalty), Jordan (86% in favor), Indonesia (30% in favor), Pakistan (76% favor) and Nigeria (51% in favor).[114] Another survey conducted by Pew Research Center in 2012 among Muslim populations found little change in attitudes towards apostasy in Islamic countries it was able to conduct a survey. Death penalty for apostasy in Islam was favored by large majorities of Muslims in Egypt (86%), Jordan (82%), Afghanistan (79%), Pakistan (76%), Malaysia (62%), Palestinian Territories (66%); and a significant percentage of Muslims in Lebanon (46%), Bangladesh (44%), Iraq (42%), Tunisia (29%), Tajikistan (22%), Indonesia (18%) and Turkey (17%).[115] Governments of six Gulf countries - Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait - did not permit Pew Research to survey nationwide public opinion on apostasy in 2010 or 2012.

I didn't ask about attitudes. I asked about enacting those beliefs into law, and carrying out sentences.

rozeboosje

gallag wrote: »

[...] the majority of Muslims would support cutting someone's head off [...]

There. Right there.

You presented a statistic based on a poll done on a small proportion of people in certain countries. In the most secular of these countries, there was NO such majority to be had. In the most oppressive of them, who decides what people are allowed to speak to external agencies and participate in such surveys? How representative are the opinions of the population as a whole?

gallag

alastair wrote: »

I didn't ask about attitudes. I asked about enacting those beliefs into law, and carrying out sentences.

.

rozeboosje

[edited] ....

lengthy posts do not an argument make.

alastair

Nice cutting and pasting, but not the question I asked. How many of those states carried out the sentence of death for apostasy?

gallag

rozeboosje wrote: »

There. Right there.

You presented a statistic based on a poll done on a small proportion of people in certain countries. In the most secular of these countries, there was NO such majority to be had. In the most oppressive of them, who decides what people are allowed to speak to external agencies and participate in such surveys? How representative are the opinions of the population as a whole?

Do you understand how polls work?  Pew Research Center are internationally accredited so if you have any trouble believing them or with their methodology take it up with them, also if you actually read my post you would see that the more repressed countries were people would not be allowed free speech were not allowed to be included.
" Governments of six Gulf countries - Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait - did not permit Pew Research to survey nationwide public opinion on apostasy in 2010 or 2012."

gallag

rozeboosje wrote: »

[edited] ....

lengthy posts do not an argument make.

fine rebuttal sir.

rozeboosje

gallag wrote: »

fine rebuttal sir.

All that is needed. But as an exercise, you might want to translate those lovely percentages into actual NUMBERS of people. You'll find it interesting how the the 82% of INDONESIANS who don't support the death penalty for apostasy compare to the 82% of JORDANIANS who do. Funny, also, how you didn't see fit to include the large Muslim populations in countries such as India and China.

:-)

gallag

alastair wrote: »

Nice cutting and pasting, but not the question I asked. How many of those states carried out the sentence of death for apostasy?

You asked
"I didn't ask about attitudes. I asked about enacting those beliefs into law, and carrying out sentences."
I feel my post went beyond being enough, but I can expand.


http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9B900G20131210?irpc=932 GENEVA (Reuters) - In 13 countries around the world, all of them Muslim, people who openly espouse atheism or reject the official state religion of Islam face execution under the law, according to a detailed study issued on Tuesday.

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/apostasy/index.php This report surveys the apostasy laws of twenty-three countries in Africa, the Middle East, South Asia, and Southeast Asia and primarily focuses on jurisdictions that make apostasy, or renouncing one’s religion, a capital offense. However, several countries that have adopted broadly-defined laws on blasphemy and insult to religion, which could potentially be used to prosecute persons for apostasy, have also been included, as well as one country that expressly prohibits extrajudicial punishment for allegations of apostasy.

rozeboosje

gallag wrote: »

Do you understand how polls work?  Pew Research Center are internationally accredited so if you have any trouble believing them or with their methodology take it up with them, also if you actually read my post you would see that the more repressed countries were people would not be allowed free speech were not allowed to be included.
" Governments of six Gulf countries - Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait - did not permit Pew Research to survey nationwide public opinion on apostasy in 2010 or 2012."

Nice dodge, but I'm not buying it. These countries haven't quite learned that the best thing an oppressive regime can do is present a façade of openness while tightly controlling what the public gets to consume and who gets to exercise their supposed "freedom of expression". The scariest regimes aren't the stupid ones that still try to block the internet, they're the ones that have learned to use it as a propaganda tool.

gallag

rozeboosje wrote: »

Nice dodge, but I'm not buying it. These countries haven't quite learned that the best thing an oppressive regime can do is present a façade of openness while tightly controlling what the public gets to consume and who gets to exercise their supposed "freedom of expression". The scariest regimes aren't the stupid ones that still try to block the internet, they're the ones that have learned to use it as a propaganda tool.

How is it a dodge? do you normality deal with facts by putting on a tin foil hat?

rozeboosje

:-)

K.Flyer

After a public outcty and international pressure she was released, but this could have turned into a tragedy. ..
However, it sadly highlights that in some countries the death sentance is given to anyone found guilty of Apostasy. I just wonder how many death sentances have been carried out and gone un-noticed by the international media.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/sudan/10844205/Pregnant-woman-given-death-sentence-in-Sudan-is-kept-shackled-in-her-cell.html

An eight-months pregnant woman is being kept shackled to the wall of her cell as she awaits hanging, her husband has said after visiting her in prison.Meriam Ibrahim, 26, was sentenced to death in Sudan on Thursday for refusing to recant her Christianity and for marrying Christian Daniel Wani - a Sudanese man with US citizenship who lives in New HampshireThe court found her guilty of apostasy - leaving Islam - even though Miss Ibrahim testified that she was never a Muslim, and was brought up as a Christian by her Ethiopia-born mother.

gallag

rozeboosje wrote: »

All that is needed. But as an exercise, you might want to translate those lovely percentages into actual NUMBERS of people. You'll find it interesting how the the 82% of INDONESIANS who don't support the death penalty for apostasy compare to the 82% of JORDANIANS who do. Funny, also, how you didn't see fit to include the large Muslim populations in countries such as India and China.

:-)

You may well be overestimating the muslim population in China, only 1.4% of Muslims live in China (1.8% of total Chinese population) and I have no data on how many of the support apostates being murderd. anyway I get your point about Indonesia having a larger population than relatively small Jordan bit no matter what way you slice it when the math is done a majority of Muslims in the world support death for apostates, not to crazy to believe what with all the evidence and it being one of the six major crimes against god in their religion.

anyway quite predictably the left leaning posters have spent more time and energy excusing and defending than condemning, that's the real scary thing.

rozeboosje

It's a scary world out there. In the '50s there were communists under our beds. How did we ever survive THAT era?

gallag

rozeboosje wrote: »

It's a scary world out there. In the '50s there were communists under our beds. How did we ever survive THAT era?

You have resorted to this level of debate when faced with evidence that challenges your beliefs. perhaps you could self analyse why you are reacting like this? anyway I take this resorting to silliness as acceptance that indeed most Muslim's in the world support death for apostates and bow out!

rozeboosje

gallag wrote: »

evidence

:-)

gallag wrote: »

your beliefs

:-)

gallag wrote: »

bow out!

Have a wonderful day.

alastair

gallag wrote: »

You asked
"I didn't ask about attitudes. I asked about enacting those beliefs into law, and carrying out sentences."
I feel my post went beyond being enough, but I can expand.


http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9B900G20131210?irpc=932 GENEVA (Reuters) - In 13 countries around the world, all of them Muslim, people who openly espouse atheism or reject the official state religion of Islam face execution under the law, according to a detailed study issued on Tuesday.

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/apostasy/index.php This report surveys the apostasy laws of twenty-three countries in Africa, the Middle East, South Asia, and Southeast Asia and primarily focuses on jurisdictions that make apostasy, or renouncing one’s religion, a capital offense. However, several countries that have adopted broadly-defined laws on blasphemy and insult to religion, which could potentially be used to prosecute persons for apostasy, have also been included, as well as one country that expressly prohibits extrajudicial punishment for allegations of apostasy.

I'm still waiting for that figure.
"I asked about enacting those beliefs into law, and carrying out sentences"

K.Flyer

alastair wrote: »

I'm still waiting for that figure.
"I asked about enacting those beliefs into law, and carrying out sentences"

I am sure that the the exact figures for the amount of people that have been executed for apostasy in Muslim countries would be difficult to find. However a quick search of Beheading for Apostasy or Death for Apostasy does bring up some disturbing reading.

realweirdo

Here's one example from Iran

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/10/01/Iranian-man-executed-for-heresy-rights-group.html

His crime?

The Iran Wire website reported that in one of his classes he told his audience that Jonah could not have emerged from the whale's belly, and it was this statement that led to his charge of insulting the Prophet Jonah.

He tried to say that many of the stories from the Quran were fables, myths or symbolic.

For this he paid with his life because the religious authorities in Iran and elsewhere want people to believe that it is historically factual that Jonah did actually emerge from the whale unscathed.

This is the kind of stuff taught to children and they are led to believe its real and factual and don't have the ability to think otherwise. This Iranian guy was a hero in my eyes for actually trying to teach his students the truth rather than peddling myths.