Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

Scofflaw

This is from last week, but only catching my eye now:http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/call-for-state-schools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810

Personally, I don't have much time for the imposition of any religious dogma in schools - but as people probably know, I'm a pretty confirmed multiculturalist, so I ought to be somewhat conflicted on this. However, I don't find myself very conflicted here, because it's a fine example of a "non-native" religious dogma expressing itself in a way that I wouldn't accept from a more "native" one either.

Dr Selim's proposals are:

1. Islamic Holidays to be marked and celebrated
2. Special days off for Muslim children
3. Schools to actively participate in Ramadan by raising funds for "the needy"
4. A ban on raffles as a method of fund raising as they are "strictly forbidden" in Islam
5. "Crucial" changes to Relationships and Sexuality Education curriculum to exclude reference to or attempted normalization of pre-marital relationships
6. Exemptions and radical change to PE to ensure female only teachers and a ban on male staff accessing areas where girls might be taking lessons
7. All music to exclude any instruments that makes a note ("tunable instruments")
8. School Plays to forbid any physical contact between boys and girls and a ban on gender role reversals

I don't have a major issue with 1 or 3 - marking the holidays appropriate to some students seems reasonable, at least if there are enough such students in a school, and Ramadan seems at least as good a reason for charitable work as Lent.

Point 2 I don't have a problem with in principle, but it would be difficult in practice - like it or not, the Christian holidays are the accepted cultural norm.

Points 4, 7 and 8 are easily dealt with by non-participation. If someone wants to create purely Islamic orchestras or plays, let them do so.

Points 5 and 6 are simply unacceptable medievalism - an attempt to impose the mores of a minority on the majority.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nodin

He doesn't ask for a ban on raffles, he says that co-operation in raising funds is possible but that raffles are "forbidden" to muslims,

As regards music
"When it came to music some Muslims would see it as prohibited but “if music is performed using non-tuneable percussion instruments such as drums, most Muslims will have no problem”.

And some muslims would have no problem regardless. Dr Selim speaks from a strict Sunni tradition.

I'm not sure that the man advocates strict separation of non-muslim boys and girls in school plays either.

Regardless of the above, this is the inevitable result of allowing religion in the state school system. Any and all can thus call for accommodation.

Scofflaw

Nodin wrote: »

He doesn't ask for a ban on raffles, he says that co-operation in raising funds is possible but that raffles are "forbidden" to muslims,

As regards music
"When it came to music some Muslims would see it as prohibited but “if music is performed using non-tuneable percussion instruments such as drums, most Muslims will have no problem”.

And some muslims would have no problem regardless. Dr Selim speaks from a strict Sunni tradition.

I'm not sure that the man advocates strict separation of non-muslim boys and girls in school plays either.

Regardless of the above, this is the inevitable result of allowing religion in the state school system. Any and all can thus call for accommodation.

Actually, on the PE point, it's more nuanced:

He suggests there is “a clash of values” also between Islam and “traditional ways of teaching PE”. In some schools, “under the guise of health and safety, Muslim girls are obliged to take off their headscarves for PE classes, which is not acceptable to them”.

Where schools were “persistent”, they should “employ a female PE teacher and provide students with a sports hall not accessible to men during times when girls are at play. They should also not be visible to men while at play.”

So, separation only if required to remove their headscarves. But the views on "non-tunable instruments", sex ed and school plays are pretty uncompromising.

As you say, though, it's a natural consequence of allowing faiths to run schools - any other faith can reasonably claim to be discriminated against. And as an atheist parent I do feel for the man when he says:

“Gaining admission to Irish schools is a challenge for Muslims,” Dr Selim says, describing as “legal discrimination” section 15 of the 1998 Education Act which allows schools give preference to pupils on faith grounds. It was a “major problem for non-Catholic children who apply to them because of proximity or quality of education”, he says.

cordially,
Scofflaw

jank

A few of his requests would contravene the equality legislation. Secular supporters of his will have a hard time squaring that hole.

old_aussie

Scofflaw wrote: »

This is from last week, but only catching my eye now:http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/call-for-state-schools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810


Dr Selim's proposals are:

1. Islamic Holidays to be marked and celebrated

Celebrated by who?

Larbre34

jank wrote: »

A few of his requests would contravene the equality legislation. Secular supporters of his will have a hard time squaring that hole.

As is topical today, the exemption for denominational schools to employ per their ethos, in contrast to wider society where the equality legislation applies, is under pressure from the Teacher unions. Its a Govt commitment, originating with Labour, to do away with this exemption - although it has not been progressed.

To begin to adopt Muslim special provisions, while all others are being phased out, would be wrong - not to mention those requested Muslim provisions that are anathema to a western secular society like Ireland, in or out of School.

The answer is to take all religious / faith based education out of state schools entirely. Faith based issues should be dealt with within the worshipping community on a 'Sunday School' basis. Families wishing to take children out of school for religious holidays should do so within the current attendance framework.

BlaasForRafa

Larbre34 wrote: »

The answer is to take all religious / faith based education out of state schools entirely. Faith based issues should be dealt with within the worshipping community on a 'Sunday School' basis. Families wishing to take children out of school for religious holidays should do so within the current attendance framework.

Religion, religious symbols and prayer should be taken out of ALL schools, not just state ones, leave religious indoctrination to the parents. That would make for a level playing field and no-one is discriminated against.

Gatling

old_aussie wrote: »

Celebrated by who?

Some schools would likely have 1 - several muslim students ,

pablomakaveli

This is all just one guys opinions at the end of the day.

Irish Muslim organisations have come out and said they are happy with the Irish education system.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/irish-muslim-organisations-praise-schools-system-1.1922818

I think people are taking what this guy has said too seriously.

woodoo

The state needs to protect these Muslim children from these extreme Muslim ways until they are old enough to decide for themselves if they want to bound by them. Religion shouldn't be forced on any children. The schools must resist these sort of demands. Because they will keep on coming.

Nodin

woodoo wrote: »

The state needs to protect these Muslim children from these extreme Muslim ways until they are old enough to decide for themselves if they want to bound by them. Religion shouldn't be forced on any children. The schools must resist these sort of demands. Because they will keep on coming.

And will this apply to all the other religions in the state?

I'm sure demands from various sects will keep on coming, given the fact we haven't a secular state school system.

AlekSmart

pablomakaveli wrote: »

This is all just one guys opinions at the end of the day.

Irish Muslim organisations have come out and said they are happy with the Irish education system.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/irish-muslim-organisations-praise-schools-system-1.1922818

I think people are taking what this guy has said too seriously.

Yet,it is of note that whilst the"Moderate" views of the IFI and ICCI now beleatedly appear,we see no Individual prepared to challenge any of Dr Selim's views.

Well done to those two groups,and hopefully this will encourage other moderate Muslims to step forward and offer a dissenting voice,without fear of denigration or reprisal ?

_Kaiser_

I've a very simple outlook on things like this..

If you come here, you come to work and to contribute and integrate into your host society and enrich it through mutual give-and-take.

If you want to come to a place and expect the locals to bend over to accommodate your native customs and beliefs and change their own to suit yours (as suggested in the OP).. well then you probably should stay home

A big part of the problem in western Europe is that while we opened our borders and industries to non-national workers, minimal effort has been spent on social integration which leads to segregation, resentment (on both sides) and if unchecked deeper and more significant social issues.

As for the specifics of the OP, I've no issue with people believing anything they want to (within obvious limits) - but it has no place in our increasingly diverse school system. If you want your child to be raised with the teachings of Catholicism or Islam or whatever then teach them yourselves, or through your Church, but you have absolutely no entitlement to think you can "force" (either directly or indirectly) your beliefs on others.

oscarBravo

This thread is about Muslims, not immigrants.

_Kaiser_

oscarBravo wrote: »

This thread is about Muslims, not immigrants.

The principle is the same

oscarBravo

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The principle is the same

It's really not. The fact that you'd conflate the two is bizarre, frankly.

hatrickpatrick

Scofflaw wrote: »

1. Islamic Holidays to be marked and celebrated

Ok with this since we tend to mark and celebrate Christian ones. Should be all or none.

2. Special days off for Muslim children

Not sure about this. If days off are given for religious holidays they should be given to all kids for all religious holidays - having different sections of the student body off at different times would cause havoc with the curriculum.

3. Schools to actively participate in Ramadan by raising funds for "the needy"

If this is done for Christian charities then I have no problem with it but it certainly shouldn't be compulsory.

4. A ban on raffles as a method of fund raising as they are "strictly forbidden" in Islam

F*ck that. As with anything, individuals should be free to not take part, but any religious rules banning something for everyone regardless of belief are poisonous.

5. "Crucial" changes to Relationships and Sexuality Education curriculum to exclude reference to or attempted normalization of pre-marital relationships

Absolutely 100% not a chance. This would be absolutely disastrous - Ireland needs to move away from social conservatism. As it stands, parents are free to not let their kids go to RSE classes - in my view that in and of itself is massively problematic.

6. Exemptions and radical change to PE to ensure female only teachers and a ban on male staff accessing areas where girls might be taking lessons

See above with regard to social conservatism.

7. All music to exclude any instruments that makes a note ("tunable instruments")

...Huh?

8. School Plays to forbid any physical contact between boys and girls and a ban on gender role reversals

See above with regard to social conservatism.


As with many such things, this list strikes me as a bait and switch of sorts - the first few points draw you in by seeming relatively compromisable at least, and then when you've been lulled into a false sense of security it turns into an attempt to impose social taboos on kids.

Nodin

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The principle is the same

As the notion of accommodation can be raised by any religious sect, no, not really.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Matt Holck

give them friday off

jmayo

Scofflaw wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

A bit slow there.
Maybe you should head over to politics.ie where these issues are debated much more speedily.
Of course you would have a seizure when you see the comments.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Personally, I don't have much time for the imposition of any religious dogma in schools - but as people probably know, I'm a pretty confirmed multiculturalist, so I ought to be somewhat conflicted on this. However, I don't find myself very conflicted here, because it's a fine example of a "non-native" religious dogma expressing itself in a way that I wouldn't accept from a more "native" one either.

How anyone could be conflicted about being completly against these proposals is beyond me.
BTW I think multiculturalism only works when you don't have cultures that at their most extreme misogynistic, discriminatory and even preaching hatred.

Dr Selim's proposals are the beginning.

We as a state and a society need to learn from our neighbours mistakes.
Conservative and fundamentalist religious and cultural traditions that are in affect misogynistic, discriminatory and racist should not be given any truck in our soceity.
And conservative islam is one of the worst in this regard.
Of course that is not to say a right wing christian, Hindu caste believers, Hasidic Haredi Jews or whatever should be treated any differently if they start coming up with such outlandish porposals.
At the moment and in the future the problems are going to come from members of the muslim faith.

Of course I can now see the responses about how I, and others, are scare mongering, but take a look across the Irish sea and take a look at how many British born muslim fighters are in ISIS.

oscarBravo wrote: »

This thread is about Muslims, not immigrants.

Ehh how have most of the muslim population gotten here ?
This is absolutely an immigration issue and it is how we assimilate those who are from a pretty different religious and cultural background into our 21st century society.

And yes I do say assimilate.
This cr** that everyone can keep their outlandish way of life when it is so diverse from the majority and in direct contravention to our social and legal framework is really a joke.

Some people may come from a society where it may be perfectly acceptable to force your daughters to endure FGM, the stoning of a female adulterer or physical attacks on homosexuals are not alone condoned but legal, the segration of the sexes is normal, the ostracisation of some like albinos is normal, etc, etc.
Those practices are not acceptable in this state and immigrants need to know that from the start.
There is no ifs or buts about it.

People trying to bring in their medieval practices and beliefs through the guise of multiculturalism or maintaining traditional values shoudl not be acceptable.
What is worse is that we have a cohort of "natives" (for want of a better word) who will help promote the rights of these people to practice some of these more backward beliefs & traditions under the guise of multiculturalism.

It has taken us long enough to get our society to where it is today, and there is more to do such as removal of the catholic church from education, without us introducing yet more even prehistoric influences into our society.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No religion should be the goal, not pandering to even more loonier ones.
Next thing we will have kids expected to watch Tom Cruise and his ideas of handling road accidents.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

I would make it a legal requirement for all children living in the state to attend only secular schools for their education. Religious dogma can be thought outside of school time.

If religion had been taken out of schools I don't think the troubles would have happened on the island.

I have no real problem with religion on a personal level but I see it as the single biggest social divider of human beings.
The colour of your face is only skin deep, but growing up through a religious schooling system can infect the mind with ignorance and distrust of every other person who goes through a different religious schooling system.

donaghs

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's really not. The fact that you'd conflate the two is bizarre, frankly.

Everyone knows that not all immigrants are Muslims, and that not all Muslims are immigrants. But that the vast majority of Islam in Ireland has come about through immigration, not by conversion. I think you understand that too, so maybe move on from this little word-game.

Adding to what others have said, its interesting that Dr. Selim wants religious crests removed from school uniforms, but wants elements of his religion (his interpretation of it) added into schools.

Strange that he brings up the hijab issues since as he says himself its not legally banned, and there haven't been much controversy over kids wearing it in Ireland. More worryingly, what I detect from this is perhaps an attempt to pressure other Muslims into toeing a stricter-Sunni line, following this "divine obligation" as he puts it.
If he wants to get down to "fundamentals", there nothing in the Koran specifically saying women should cover their heads with a scarf.

Icepick

Public schools need to be secularized.

State should not indoctrinate children in religious beliefs. Actually, it should protect children from harmful beliefs.

AlekSmart

In the broader context of this issue of "Accomodating Beliefs",it would appear the Australians are fully engaged on a State vs Religion conflict.

What is truly eye-rolling about this particular case is the success of the defence case on appeal..ie: The woman concerned could not be positively identified due to her veil,with even mention made of a Twin Sister !!

Suely the first public lifting of a lid from a very big tin of worms indeed....will we follow suit,if so,who will actually benefit and how long until we see a similar scenario on 6-One News ?

http://americannews.com/video-muslim-woman-tries-to-use-shariah-law-on-a-cop-gets-destroyed/

Then to the successful appeal......

http://www.news.com.au/national/muslim-woman-accused-of-making-false-police-statement-avoids-jail-over-identity-doubt/story-e6frfkvr-1226078884650

For Reals

The sooner all prayer is out of all public schools the better.
Having religion as a subject in a school is an embarrassment. May as well study Harry Potter.

It tends to go with the State as regards days off. Catholic or not, schools close on allocated days. Regardless of your beliefs, those are the days. I don't believe in Santy, but you'll not get me going into work or school on Christmas Day.


Running education in tandem with a set of mystical beliefs is lunacy. Any set of beliefs. Schools should be about learning facts. If you want to go, you should be provided with basic education, if you don't like the way its served up based on fantasy, that's your choice.

seanaway

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The principle is the same

I have differences with you on some posts but not this one.

I agree 100%.

You choose to live in a country - then integrate and be thankful you have a country which acts as host. ( And yes I apply that to EVERY Irish person living abroad to)

By all means practise your faith and beliefs but don't expect the host nation to start becoming something it isn't.

After all, people chose Ireland for reason. Probably it was that it offered saftey, sanctuary, a better life etc...

AlekSmart

seanaway wrote: »

I have differences with you on some posts but not this one.

I agree 100%.

You choose to live in a country - then integrate and be thankful you have a country which acts as host. ( And yes I apply that to EVERY Irish person living abroad to)

By all means practise your faith and beliefs but don't expect the host nation to start becoming something it isn't.

After all, people chose Ireland for reason. Probably it was that it offered saftey, sanctuary, a better life etc...

Somethin which those Australian clips most certainly show, is NOT the case There,but which some feel will soon be the case Here

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

Somethin which those Australian clips most certainly show, is NOT the case There,but which some feel will soon be the case Here

You are aware that Carnita Matthews, the woman you're referencing, is an Australian-born woman, and hasn't emigrated anywhere that would require her to integrate?

AlekSmart

alastair wrote: »

You are aware that Carnita Matthews, the woman you're referencing, is an Australian-born woman, and hasn't emigrated anywhere that would require her to integrate?

Yep.

Integration is the least of the issues covered by the clips.

rocoso

its so terrible ....if some of european people want to go to asia we would be in danger of beheading with no rights and our governments have allowed us to become engulfed with people who want western democraticy and will accept every thing for nothing from us....in other words come to owr country and you will need no more for anything