Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

AlekSmart

alastair wrote: »

Yes. The issue of PE lessons for girls is just another facet of the 'warring factions of Islam', just like ISIS, and the need for all Muslims to reassure everyone they're not rooting for them. You know, as part of that whole violent spasm thing.

I'm still not sure what an indentifiable spokesperson is though.

Dr Selim,is quite easily identifiable as a significant personage in the world of Irish Islam.

His pronouncements carry some weight for many devotees as they come from such a readily identifiable source...man to Man,so to speak.

Just as with the entire religious paraphernalia,the mouthpiece can often make the message.....Not for nothing do we have a Jesus,Allah,Mohammed,Joeseph Smith,Ian Paisley or whatever.

Committees,on the other hand,often end up trying to make their collective voice heard over the more readily identifiable "Una Voce".

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, there's a clear parallel between the two issues.

There certainly is,and becoming clearer each passing day.

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

Dr Selim,is quite easily identifiable as a significant personage in the world of Irish Islam.

His pronouncements carry some weight for many devotees as they come from such a readily identifiable source...man to Man,so to speak.

By that reckoning David Quinn must speak for the entire Irish Catholic community.

Eh, no.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

There certainly is,and becoming clearer each passing day.

Do please explain then, the equivalence of Dr Selim and ISIS.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

Do please explain then, the equivalence of Dr Selim and ISIS.

No need,a quick e-mail to the P.R. section of the Islamic State enquiring as to their policies on Islamic Girls and shared P.E. classes,or even educating Girls at all,will provide you with far more "equivalence" than I ever could.

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

No need,a quick e-mail to the P.R. section of the Islamic State enquiring as to their policies on Islamic Girls and shared P.E. classes,or even educating Girls at all,will provide you with far more "equivalence" than I ever could.

No doubt we can expect the good Dr. Ali to rolling around town any day now in a Humvee and start a campaign of murder and kidnappings? The denizens of Clonskeagh should be warned immediately!

realweirdo

The fundamental point in all of this is that Islam is not a progressive, liberal religion which shares much if anything with western values. Students of it are already radicalised even if they never meet a radical preacher. The only thing that keeps Islam in check in the west is the fact it is part of a much larger society and Islam is a small minority. However where Islam is the majority religion, democracy is the exception rather than the rule, and civil rights, free speech and the rights of women are severely limited. Islam might have appeared enlightented in the 7th century but it certainly doesn't today.

Timberrrrrrrr

realweirdo wrote: »

The fundamental point in all of this is that Islam is not a progressive, liberal religion which shares much if anything with western values. Students of it are already radicalised even if they never meet a radical preacher. The only thing that keeps Islam in check in the west is the fact it is part of a much larger society and Islam is a small minority. However where Islam is the majority religion, democracy is the exception rather than the rule, and civil rights, free speech and the rights of women are severely limited. Islam might have appeared enlightented in the 7th century but it certainly doesn't today.

What a pile of utter codswallop

conorhal

Nemeses2050 wrote: »

just for your info...Two biggest and oldest Islamic centres disagree with Dr.Selim...

http://islaminireland.com/news/irish-muslims-organisations-praise-school-system/

That's just a damage limitation excercise after one of their fold spoke a little too loudly and a little too soon. 'We disagree with Dr. Selim' say the organization that operate their school exactly in line with the demands of the disagreeable Dr. Selim. Pull the other one.

alastair

conorhal wrote: »

That's just a damage limitation excercise after one of their fold spoke a little too loudly and a little too soon. 'We disagree with Dr. Selim' say the organization that operate their school exactly in line with the demands of the disagreeable Dr. Selim. Pull the other one.

Just because there might be particular rules within a faith-based school, it doesn't follow that the IFI or ICCI would expect the same rules be applied by schools outside their own operation. They're clearly saying they they disagree with Dr. Selim's views in that regard. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

No need,a quick e-mail to the P.R. section of the Islamic State enquiring as to their policies on Islamic Girls and shared P.E. classes,or even educating Girls at all,will provide you with far more "equivalence" than I ever could.

No, no, no. You made the comparison, you spell it out.

Ash.J.Williams

Dear Mr. Muslim.....NO .....we've had enough religion to last us a lifetime. Feel free to bang your drum in your raffle free environment.

masonchat

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Dear Mr. Muslim.....NO .....we've had enough religion to last us a lifetime. Feel free to bang your drum in your raffle free environment.

Dont say that because next thing they will be looking to be playing the call to prayer 5 times a day starting before dawn under the argument well you ring a bell

realweirdo

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What a pile of utter codswallop

So you disagree that followers of Islam base their lives and viewpoints on the teachings of a 7th century prophet?

For example, you offer democracy to Islamic countries around the world and the natural tendency eventually is to descend into religious sectarianism as you see in Iraq or a leaning towards Sharia Law. There is just no imagination in these countries among the general populous. It's Islam or nothing.

It's just not a progressive religion in any way shape or form. It has a radical approach to most things, particularly dealing with athieism.

rozeboosje

I love the way general sweeping statements about 1.5 billion people are presented as fact without the slightest supporting evidence.

Timberrrrrrrr

realweirdo wrote: »

So you disagree that followers of Islam base their lives and viewpoints on the teachings of a 7th century prophet?

For example, you offer democracy to Islamic countries around the world and the natural tendency eventually is to descend into religious sectarianism as you see in Iraq or a leaning towards Sharia Law. There is just no imagination in these countries among the general populous. It's Islam or nothing.

It's just not a progressive religion in any way shape or form. It has a radical approach to most things, particularly dealing with athieism.

Yes

Yes i do, but then i have Muslim friends and interact with Muslims on a daily basis so i know that your sensationalist statements are utter codswallop.

realweirdo

rozeboosje wrote: »

I love the way general sweeping statements about 1.5 billion people are presented as fact without the slightest supporting evidence.

Is that so?

How well do you think I would fare by making the statements I have been in an Islamic country? Not very well! And not just a small radical minority but the entire population would be out to get me. Like I said, western culture has had a mitigating impact on Islamic followers for the most part in the west.

But all in all, the religion is against all things western including democracy. So like I said when you teach Islam to someone, you are already sowing seeds of radicalism. It just needs someone even more radical to tip someone over the edge into outright hostility and violent militancy towards the west.

realweirdo

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yes

Yes i do, but then i have Muslim friends and interact with Muslims on a daily basis so i know that your sensationalist statements are utter codswallop.

You interact with them in the west, that's the point. You keep missing my argument about how living in the west makes people more moderate.

As for saying what others are saying is codswallop, can you try to express yourself in a more mature way?

Timberrrrrrrr

realweirdo wrote: »

You interact with them in the west, that's the point. You keep missing my argument about how living in the west makes people more moderate.

As for saying what others are saying is codswallop, can you try to express yourself in a more mature way?

I'd love to but i can't afford another ban so i will let you continue to post codswallop and bid you good day.

realweirdo

I would hate to see our schools become a propaganda platform for any religion which is why religion shouldn't be taught in schools fullstop. Children are in no way capable of deciding if a particular religion is for them or not, or if it is historically factual or man-made myths posing as historical "facts".

In other words, children get a one-sided view of religion with next to no critical view of it. Which is wrong.

_Brian

I think were getting to the stage where no religion is in schools.

The only potential benefit I could see is that if it were state regulated would there be less chance of it being radicalised ?

rozeboosje

realweirdo wrote: »

Is that so?

How well do you think I would fare by making the statements I have been in an Islamic country? Not very well! And not just a small radical minority but the entire population would be out to get me. Like I said, western culture has had a mitigating impact on Islamic followers for the most part in the west.

But all in all, the religion is against all things western including democracy. So like I said when you teach Islam to someone, you are already sowing seeds of radicalism. It just needs someone even more radical to tip someone over the edge into outright hostility and violent militancy towards the west.

The entire population, eh?

Do you admire the bravery of Malala Yousafzai? You should. She stood up against the barbarity and the backwardness of her local Taliban fanatics. And she paid a heavy price for her bravery.

Never saw her denounce her RELIGION though. She was a Muslimah then, and she still is a Muslimah now.

The only thing you need to disprove a sweeping generalisation is a SINGLE exception.

realweirdo

rozeboosje wrote: »

The entire population, eh?

Do you admire the bravery of Malala Yousafzai? You should. She stood up against the barbarity and the backwardness of her local Taliban fanatics. And she paid a heavy price for her bravery.

Never saw her denounce her RELIGION though. She was a Muslimah then, and she still is a Muslimah now.

The only thing you need to disprove a sweeping generalisation is a SINGLE exception.

And you have to prove how Islam is a liberal progressive religion which shares any values with the west. Not its adherants as such but Islam.

You have proven the point that there is no free speech in islamic societies. People are executed regularly in the middle east by nation states such as Iran for the slightest rejection of Islam. Its not a benign religion. Its not a religion of peace unfortunately no matter how many Imans say otherwise. And it should have no place in state schools.

rozeboosje

realweirdo wrote: »

And you have to prove how Islam is a liberal progressive religion

Show me where I made that claim, then issue demands. Because I am most certainly not going to defend a position that YOU attribute to me.

K.Flyer

realweirdo wrote: »

.....
In other words, children get a one-sided view of religion with next to no critical view of it. Which is wrong.

Which is why I was, even at a very young age, considered quite disruptive in religion class during my school days.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

No, no, no. You made the comparison, you spell it out.

The aetheists made a good start in their responses...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/atheist-ireland-invites-muslim-schools-in-ireland-to-be-inclusive-1.1920757

Dr Selim's list of requirements which will make the Irish Educational system acceptable to whatever number of Muslims he may represent..

Islamic Holidays to be marked and celebrated

Special days off for Muslim children

Schools to actively participate in Ramadan by raising funds for "the needy"

A ban on raffles as a method of fund raising as they are "strictly forbidden" in Islam

"Crucial" changes to Relationships and Sexuality Education curriculum to exclude reference to or attempted normalization of pre-marital relationships

Exemptions and radical change to PE to ensure female only teachers and a ban on male staff accessing areas where girls might be taking lessons

All music to exclude any instruments that makes a note ("tunable instruments")

School Plays to forbid any physical contact between boys and girls and a ban on gender role reversals

Most people reading through this stuff will see a common thread with the "Rules of Isis" as is currently being rolled out across their parish...although it seems that belatedly,the saner side of Islam is at last standing up to the NutJobs....

Perhaps to ensure clarity of purpose,the good Dr Selim will declare either for or agin the policies of ISIS,some of which may have a familiar ring for him....

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/life-under-isis-robbery-sex-slaves-headless-bodies-street-1459147

The militants ordered mandatory school curriculum changes, and closed the universities. Women were ordered to wear the Niqab and forbidden from leaving their homes unless accompanied by a brother, husband or father. Everyone was required to attend prayers, with markets and shops being forced to shut down during the prayer times. Smoking was banned across the city.

Look, for example, at the way the militants repressed people's personal freedoms and trampled on their livelihoods by closing cafes and shops where men and woman may come into contact.

Maisaa, 22, says: "We have become afraid to leave our house for fear of prosecution. If we wish to marry foreigners, we can be kidnapped;

So,that's enough "spelling-out" for me,but only for me,Mind you.....

Everybody else is free to make up their own mind as to whether the Islam "friendly" Irish Education system desired by Dr Selim,will eventually come to resemble the system currently being enforced by the new Islamic State rulers.

There is also a DCU video,from March 2012, which may assist such folks in their deliberations.

The interview is some 40 minutes long,but is worth both listening to and watching,for both the views of Imam Sheikh Halawa and the Translation skills of Dr Selim.

(Although Skeikh Halawa has lived in Ireland for 18 years,he apparently does not speak English.It is perhaps also worth noting that he is the father of the Irish Hawalla family who were deported by the Egyptian authorities with the elder son still remaining in prison there)

http://www4.dcu.ie/talkingheads/sheik_hussein_halawa.shtml

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

The aetheists (....................)

Other than bull, muck throwing and more rabbit holes, you seem to have offered nothing.


You stated here that protests on the scale of those seen against ISIS should be employed against Dr Selim.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92422816&postcount=209

You have shown nothing to justify that call, at all, in any way shape or form.

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

Everybody else is free to make up their own mind as to whether the Islam "friendly" Irish Education system desired by Dr Selim,will eventually come to resemble the system currently being enforced by the new Islamic State rulers.

Let me give that the time it deserves to ponder. Finished! It's a nonsense.

gallag

rozeboosje wrote: »

The entire population, eh?

Do you admire the bravery of Malala Yousafzai? You should. She stood up against the barbarity and the backwardness of her local Taliban fanatics. And she paid a heavy price for her bravery.

Never saw her denounce her RELIGION though. She was a Muslimah then, and she still is a Muslimah now.

The only thing you need to disprove a sweeping generalisation is a SINGLE exception.

and the poor girl requires round the clock security in the UK due to religion of peace nutters still trying to kill her! also good job she does not denounce her religion or literally hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the UK would happily see her be decapitated. 36% of young british muslims believe apostates should be killed!
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/

rozeboosje

gallag wrote: »

and the poor girl requires round the clock security in the UK due to religion of peace nutters still trying to kill her!

Kindly explain how that fact allows you to make sweeping statements about 1.5 billion people who self identify as "Muslim"