Skinny Shaming

Penny Tration

Inanna wrote: »

Because the whole "fat shaming" thing is full of some of the most obnoxious idiots I've come across. The kind of people who object to hearing that maybe being overweight isn't exactly all that healthy.

Look, I'm gay. I get a lot of **** for that (far worse than these people have ever had to put up with) and I didn't have any choice in the matter. I didn't take any actions that led to me becoming gay. Yet I see these gormless wonders in the "fat shaming" movement going on about how hard they have it and isn't it awful what they have to put up with?

It pisses me off that they complain about the consequences of something they chose. And just so we're clear (because I can already envision the kinds of objections I'll meet) I'm talking about consequences that can reasonably be foreseen.



I never said anything about sticking one's nose into others' business but I don't like how certain people are telling others being fat is normal and that they shouldn't try to change who they are. Such people don't need reinforcement of their bad habits they need to be educated in how they can help themselves and why they should.

That's all. Just so it's explicitly clear: I'm not advocating going up to random people and calling them up on being fat.

You don't know what fat people have had to put up with, so you can't say you have it worse because you're gay.

It's not always an informed choice. At my worst, i was 5'1 and 23 stone. Yes, 23 stone.

I gained that much weight for two reasons - weight gain associated with the cocktail of medication I was on, and deliberately trying to make myself as unattractive to men as possible, after being raped (which is what I was on the cocktail of meds for). Hardly a rational decision.

What I experienced over my weight - 'fat' comments every day. Being egged. Having rocks thrown at me. Being told 'Oh this medication for your PCOS will make you feel sick, so you won't eat, which will help (stellar advice from a consultant - don't eat). Being constantly laughed at in work because it took me about a minute longer to climb the 6 flights of stairs to the canteen. Being told by colleagues that I obviously loved fast food. Being asked when I was due. Being asked were my breasts real.

You have no idea what issues lead to a person being overweight. I'm half the weight I was, and it was a hell of a fcuking struggle to get to that.

The ONLY time I started to consistently lose weight was when my friends and family supported me, instead of slagging me off.

Being gay isn't a choice? So what? For a lot of obese people, being that obese isn't a choice either, not a rational one. Just like for anorexics, it's not a rational choice, and for naturally petite people, it's not a choice.

How about we just stop shaming PEOPLE, whatever their size?

Lia_lia

DeltaWhite wrote: »

Have to add, I have also been questioned and interrogated about whether or not I have an eating disorder for years now and to me, that is an insult to any person who actually IS suffering with an eating disorder. It got to me so much that everytime I looked in the mirror, I believed there was something wrong with me. Thankfully, I developed SENSE and realised I'm not the one with the problem.

I sometimes get that. I'm always quite slim, but in times of stress I always lose loads of weight. Last year in my final year of college my weight went quite low, but I was still healthy. I just have feck all appetite when I am stressed so naturally I lose weight.. Anyway, last year I was on a night out and a friend of a friend pulled me over to one side and was all "I know you have an eating disorder, I do too" whilst pouring her heart out to me...didn't know what to do!

One thing that really annoys me is that when people are trying to lose weight, they refuse to take my advice. Even if they are actively asking for advice. And the reason I always get back is "sure you've always been skinny, what would you know about losing weight?" Errr, how do they think I am slim? From not knowing how to eat properly?

TheBeardedLady

Inanna wrote: »

Because the whole "fat shaming" thing is full of some of the most obnoxious idiots I've come across. The kind of people who object to hearing that maybe being overweight isn't exactly all that healthy.

Look, I'm gay. I get a lot of **** for that (far worse than these people have ever had to put up with) and I didn't have any choice in the matter. I didn't take any actions that led to me becoming gay. Yet I see these gormless wonders in the "fat shaming" movement going on about how hard they have it and isn't it awful what they have to put up with?

It pisses me off that they complain about the consequences of something they chose. And just so we're clear (because I can already envision the kinds of objections I'll meet) I'm talking about consequences that can reasonably be foreseen.



I never said anything about sticking one's nose into others' business but I don't like how certain people are telling others being fat is normal and that they shouldn't try to change who they are. Such people don't need reinforcement of their bad habits they need to be educated in how they can help themselves and why they should.

That's all. Just so it's explicitly clear: I'm not advocating going up to random people and calling them up on being fat.

Listen, there's no "fat shaming movement" here, it's just a group of women discussing the rude comments they've had to put up with because of their appearance. I'm sorry to hear you've had to put up with **** because of your sexuality and that's absolutely horrible and having been bullied myself in my teens, I know how horrible it is, so although I'm not overweight myself and have never had weight issues, I have empathy with others because I know how hurtful it is.

The majority of comments that people have discussed here have not been constructive criticism or comments made by concerned family members (etc.) in order to help the person with the weight problem but people who've overstepped the line and butted in without

You can see the venom from so many people directed at overweight people on this very forum and I can understand why the latter get defensive and put the guard up. It's a perfectly human why to deal with being bullied (because the vaaaaaast majority of comments I read are bullying).

Perhaps the constructive crticism gets lost in there somewhere because the fact that most of the criticism is bullying and can you really blame the defensiveness if you see it from their POV?


With all due respect, the obnoxious people who you speak of in your first paragraph can't be found in this thread, so I'm not seeing the justification for your posts tbh.

Hate to state the obvious here but most people with weight problems know they have one and want to change.

eviltwin

The issue I've had is not that people are trying to support me losing weight, that is fine, its the other stuff. I've had people shout at me in public and call me fatty or make fat jokes or call me a fat bitch, I've been refused entry to a bar because of it, called an ugly fat cow for turning down a bloke in a club and had the Pretty Woman moment in some shops...none of that made me feel encouraged to lose weight, it made me feel worthless.

Yes I'm in that position because of actions I've taken but that doesn't make it okay to be rude.

pwurple

I remember a long time ago, first year in college. I was chatting to some people after a class. One of them complimented me, saying something like, "oh you have a great figure". I said thanks, and one of the girls in the group was throwing me DAGGERS. So the guy turned around and said to her, "oh don't worry, she's no threat to you, she has no tits".

I laughed it off at the time, but cripes that stung. A LOT of padded bras were purchased from that moment on.

I'd never comment on someone's shape, other than to say 'you look great'.

Shakespeare's Sister

Comments to a person about how thin they are tend to come from a place of envy, unlike comments about a person being overweight, so I agree they're not two sides of the same coin.
But still, passing negative/accusatory remarks on a person's appearance is of course unacceptable.

cookiexx wrote: »

Who are you to say whats healthy and right for an individual?

Well there is obviously a point at which someone's weight isn't healthy. Lots of things are subjective but that isn't one of them.

Not that I'd be saying it to their face as it is none of my business, but it's not unreasonable to say, generally speaking, that there is an unhealthy way to live in terms of diet.

Shakespeare's Sister

pwurple wrote: »

I remember a long time ago, first year in college. I was chatting to some people after a class. One of them complimented me, saying something like, "oh you have a great figure". I said thanks, and one of the girls in the group was throwing me DAGGERS. So the guy turned around and said to her, "oh don't worry, she's no threat to you, she has no tits".

Mind = officially blown.

The Cool

I don't know what the logic is in saying "Real women have curves" and the like.
How to be a real woman:
1) Be a living human being.
2) Be female.
Ta-dah!


It's not a million miles from "real men don't cry" or "real men hold the door open for women" and the like which is also incredibly insulting.

Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, stuff that goes in their favour and some kind of shít to deal with. People talking that kind of bollox need to get over themselves.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I've always been fairly slim and I do get comments occasionally. I also lose weight pretty easily and lose my appetite if I'm stressed or upset and I definitely get more comments during those times (which is of course, massively helpful). I wouldn't compare "skinny shaming" with the real deal; I can go about my life and not really have to think about my size or be ashamed of my body for the vast majority of the time, from what I can gather that's really not the scenario for overweight people. But, skinny shaming does happen and it has influenced how I relate to people a small bit.

I found it more prevalent in school and the earlier years of college, I guess there's more "competition" between girls at that age and people are more conscious of appearance generally. I'm actually slimmer now than I was at around 17 or 18 but I can remember the digs about my size being much more of a problem then than they are now.

I'm fairly happy with my body these days, I'm skinny enough but I have a kind of broad frame, I've come to accept that I'll never have a teeny waist or much in the way of cleavage. I'm still very wary of getting into conversations about body image or weight IRL though because I don't want to have people turn around with "sure what would you know about it" "feck off you skinny bitch" etc. The other thing (I have a feeling this might come across as really big-headed but it's not intended like that) is that if a friend or relative has gained weight or is trying to lose weight I get a bit paranoid that being around me is going to make them feel bad. Years of comments like "Ugh, I could never wear that, looking at you makes me feel sick" and being told I'm not allowed into conversations about body image have kind of accumulated and made me react less than rationally to stuff.

Das Kitty

I think the "unhealthy" excuse for judging people who are overweight is a poor one.

Weight is only one indicator of a person's overall health, the fact that it is the most visible one is not to say it's the most significant one. In fact I would wager that a good portion of the people who complain about the unhealthiness of fat people are they themselves just as unhealthy in another way.

I dunno. We're each given this cool meat robot that does the most amazing things, and still we get hung up on what our awesome robots look like in comparison to other people's ones.

Shakespeare's Sister

I don't get this - being overweight is unhealthy, just like smoking and being underweight are unhealthy. There's no two ways about it.
I've put on weight recently due to being on steroids and I have no issue with acknowledging it's not healthy and I'd be healthier if I got the excess weight off. I feel it in my energy levels and fitness, and frankly I hate it.

It doesn't matter about it just being one indicator of unhealthy or if those who point it out could be unhealthy (maybe they're not?) it's simply not unreasonable or incorrect to say its unhealthy.

Das Kitty

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

I don't get this - being overweight is unhealthy, just like smoking and being underweight are unhealthy. There's no two ways about it.
I've put on weight recently due to being on steroids and I have no issue with acknowledging it's not healthy and I'd be healthier if I got the excess weight off. I feel it in my energy levels and fitness, and frankly I hate it.

It doesn't matter about it just being one indicator of unhealthy or if those who point it out could be unhealthy (maybe they're not?) it's simply not unreasonable or incorrect to say its unhealthy.

I wasn't talking about statement of fact. I was talking about judging and shaming people based on their appearance.

Some people who do this to overweight people, wheel out the excuse that the person is unhealthy so they have the right to say what they like. I just think that is a poor excuse for being unkind to others.

eviltwin

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

I don't get this - being overweight is unhealthy, just like smoking and being underweight are unhealthy. There's no two ways about it.
I've put on weight recently due to being on steroids and I have no issue with acknowledging it's not healthy and I'd be healthier if I got the excess weight off. I feel it in my energy levels and fitness, and frankly I hate it.

It doesn't matter about it just being one indicator of unhealthy or if those who point it out could be unhealthy (maybe they're not?) it's simply not unreasonable or incorrect to say its unhealthy.

The problem if your're overweight is that you wear your weakness, there are other things that are unhealthy, not just from a physical point of view but a mental one as well but they are easier to hide. Its not the first thing everyone notices about you. No one is saying overweight people shouldn't have a lecture but if losing weight was that easy we'd all be slim. Every big person knows they need to eat less and move more but its actually making that happen that is the hard part, the mental part of it is the key and all the lectures or guilt tripping in the world won't change that.

Lyaiera

Das Kitty wrote: »

I wasn't talking about statement of fact. I was talking about judging and shaming people based on their appearance.

Some people who do this to overweight people, wheel out the excuse that the person is unhealthy so they have the right to say what they like. I just think that is a poor excuse for being unkind to others.

And it really annoys me because it does nothing to help that person who is overweight. As was pointed out the vast majority of overweight people know it's not healthy and the problem is finding the ability to lose the weight. It's why self-pride messages are so important. If someone has the strength of mind to know they are a good person, and a strong person, no matter their weight, or no matter what people say to them then it becomes a lot easier to live a healthy life.

I know this for a fact myself. As my life started getting back in order after a hugely turbulent decade I started losing weight. I was finally proud of myself as a person and that made it much easier to lose my hugely over weight pounds. I'm still not at a weight I would deem healthy, I've had set backs and ups and downs but knowing I am a good person, and that my weight has nothing to do with whether I'm a good person makes it a lot easier to find the confidence to lose weight.

I'm sure people with eating disorders, or simply people who want to put on a few pounds for health or appearances sake, or anyone who wants to live a healthy life would do so much more easily if they weren't being judged and people were helping them be happy and confident without talking about their weight.

fillefatale

eviltwin wrote: »

The issue I've had is not that people are trying to support me losing weight, that is fine, its the other stuff. I've had people shout at me in public and call me fatty or make fat jokes or call me a fat bitch, I've been refused entry to a bar because of it, called an ugly fat cow for turning down a bloke in a club and had the Pretty Woman moment in some shops...none of that made me feel encouraged to lose weight, it made me feel worthless.

Yes I'm in that position because of actions I've taken but that doesn't make it okay to be rude.

This article my mate wrote on body positivity/fat shaming is great: http://smokintofu.com/2014/08/28/body-positivity-****-your-fatkini-handwringing/

Tarzana

Wibbs wrote: »

The joke's on the facebook types as Marilyn Monroe was tiny for most of her adult life. No way was she a "curvy woman".

Well, not tiny, she flitted between a size 8 and size 12 going by modern measurements. She had a tiny waist though. (As did women in general 50 years ago. Even modern playboy models would have far less cinched waists than their counterparts of the 50s, 60s and 70s) But the bust and hip measurements were in the 8-12 range. So, in keeping with a lot of Irish women.

Tarzana

Dolbert wrote: »

This, along with the Dove 'real women' crap just screams of pandering tbh.

Hated those ads. And it's wasn't just pandering for the sake of making bigger women feel better about themselves, it was pandering so that bigger women would think Dove were really right-on with the effect of increasing revenue for Dove. It was an entirely cynical, money-making endeavour.

Tarzana

meeeeh wrote: »

Btw you know you are on top of the social ladder when it is not politically incorrect to make jokes or comments about your appearance.

Very astute point. Making people feel bad for being slim is really awful, but not a hope do slim people have it worse than overweight people.

Dolbert

Tarzana wrote: »

Hated those ads. And it's wasn't just pandering for the sake of making bigger women feel better about themselves, it was pandering so that bigger women would think Dove were really right-on with the effect of increasing revenue for Dove. It was an entirely cynical, money-making endeavour.

Yeah, it was and is completely cynical.

Tarzana

Dolbert wrote: »

Yeah, it was and is completely cynical.

Do those ads still exist? I never read magazines now, don't have a telly service, and never watched ads for the last few years even when I did, due to pausing then fast-forwarding through them.

Wibbs

Tarzana wrote: »

Well, not tiny, she flitted between a size 8 and size 12 going by modern measurements. She had a tiny waist though. (As did women in general 50 years ago. Even modern playboy models would have far less cinched waists than their counterparts of the 50s, 60s and 70s) But the bust and hip measurements were in the 8-12 range. So, in keeping with a lot of Irish women.

Not quite.

"As a direct example of her size, the white dress she wore in The Seven Year Itch was recently auctioned off and was put on a mannequin that was a size 2, but they were still unable to zip up the dress as the mannequin was too big. Many of her other dresses that exist from throughout her career match up to about the same, give or take an inch or two. That being said, Marilyn Monroe at times would have her dresses so tight they’d have to be sown onto her, so something more comfortable in a size 4-ish (American) and something like an 8 in the U.K. is probably more accurate with most brands, though it should be noted that a 22 inch waist in many popular American jean sizes today would be below a 0"

Overall she was a 5 foot 5 size 8 in today's sizes(with a much smaller waist). What's interesting in that article is how the shapes have changed in the interim. " the average American woman in the 1950s had a 25 inch waist compared to Monroe’s 22 inches. Whereas today, the average American woman has a waist size of 34 inches, so the gap between the models and “average” was much less pronounced then." Now much of that would come down to people in the west being taller overall too, but it's a pretty big change. Goes for men's sizes too. Men were much thinner on average back then. In shape and frame not just extra fat. If you ever get the chance to see Victorian or Edwardian clothes for men and women they were usually tiny by comparison to today and not just in height. The wrist holes on shirts and jackets for men were tiny. I'm thin and have scrawny wrists(6.5 inch) and they'd be tight on me.

Wibbs

Tarzana wrote: »

Very astute point. Making people feel bad for being slim is really awful, but not a hope do slim people have it worse than overweight people.

+1. Skinny men might have more of it going on, but even there not close to how overweight men do. And that's before we look at how much less society judges men by weight anyway.

LenaClaire

Wibbs wrote: »

Now much of that would come down to people in the west being taller overall too, but it's a pretty big change. Goes for men's sizes too. Men were much thinner on average back then. In shape and frame not just extra fat. If you ever get the chance to see Victorian or Edwardian clothes for men and women they were usually tiny by comparison to today and not just in height. The wrist holes on shirts and jackets for men were tiny. I'm thin and have scrawny wrists(6.5 inch) and they'd be tight on me.

There have been several interesting studies that show that the nutritional health of your parents and even your grandparents can have an impact on your height and build. We started having much more available and higher quality food across most levels of society in the past few generations, so we are seeing much taller and broader averages. The upper class and warrior classes used to be taller and stronger than the peasant class just due to the nutrition available during their childhoods.

Small final adult height and broadness of bones is related to your mother's nutrition and your nutrition prior to age 18-20. The Average woman 100 years ago was 5 foot 1 and now the average woman is around 5 foot 6. Pretty impressive bump in 3-4 generations when you think of the ratios.

Also, women up until the recent years have worn fairly strong shape wear, that can have a permanent impact on your shape if you wear it during your teens and twenties, as it can actually change the ways your bones and organs grow.

Tarzana

Wibbs wrote: »

Not quite.

"As a direct example of her size, the white dress she wore in The Seven Year Itch was recently auctioned off and was put on a mannequin that was a size 2, but they were still unable to zip up the dress as the mannequin was too big. Many of her other dresses that exist from throughout her career match up to about the same, give or take an inch or two. That being said, Marilyn Monroe at times would have her dresses so tight they’d have to be sown onto her, so something more comfortable in a size 4-ish (American) and something like an 8 in the U.K. is probably more accurate with most brands, though it should be noted that a 22 inch waist in many popular American jean sizes today would be below a 0"

Overall she was a 5 foot 5 size 8 in today's sizes(with a much smaller waist). What's interesting in that article is how the shapes have changed in the interim. " the average American woman in the 1950s had a 25 inch waist compared to Monroe’s 22 inches. Whereas today, the average American woman has a waist size of 34 inches, so the gap between the models and “average” was much less pronounced then." Now much of that would come down to people in the west being taller overall too, but it's a pretty big change. Goes for men's sizes too. Men were much thinner on average back then. In shape and frame not just extra fat. If you ever get the chance to see Victorian or Edwardian clothes for men and women they were usually tiny by comparison to today and not just in height. The wrist holes on shirts and jackets for men were tiny. I'm thin and have scrawny wrists(6.5 inch) and they'd be tight on me.

That's all waist sizes. Her hips were between size 8 and 12, as was her bust. I already mentioned that her waist was smaller than that. Today, despite the smaller waist, she would have needed from size 8s to size 12s depending on the time period in her life. Can't remeber where it was but I saw an article on her measurements at various points in her life and compared them to current sizes for hips, bust and waist. The dress wouldn't zip up on a size 2 (UK size 8) if it was made to measure as her waist would have been smaller than that, whereas the modern size 2 would be assuming size 2 measurements across hips, waist and bust.

Dolbert

Tarzana wrote: »

That's all waist sizes. Her hips were between size 8 and 12, as was her bust. I already mentioned that her waist was smaller than that. Today, despite the smaller waist, she would have needed from size 8s to size 12s depending on the time period in her life. Can't remeber where it was but I saw an article on her measurements at various points in her life and compared them to current sizes for hips, bust and waist. The dress wouldn't zip up on a size 2 (UK size 8) if it was made to measure as her waist would have been smaller than that, whereas the modern size 2 would be assuming size 2 measurements across hips, waist and bust.

Yep, she had a tiny 22 inch waist but 35 inch bust and hips, so an extreme hourglass. I remember reading that all of her clothes had to be tailored to fit. People are mistaken when they say she was bigger, but she was curvy.

Penny Tration

LenaClaire wrote: »

There have been several interesting studies that show that the nutritional health of your parents and even your grandparents can have an impact on your height and build. We started having much more available and higher quality food across most levels of society in the past few generations, so we are seeing much taller and broader averages. The upper class and warrior classes used to be taller and stronger than the peasant class just due to the nutrition available during their childhoods.

Small final adult height and broadness of bones is related to your mother's nutrition and your nutrition prior to age 18-20. The Average woman 100 years ago was 5 foot 1 and now the average woman is around 5 foot 6. Pretty impressive bump in 3-4 generations when you think of the ratios.

Also, women up until the recent years have worn fairly strong shape wear, that can have a permanent impact on your shape if you wear it during your teens and twenties, as it can actually change the ways your bones and organs grow.

I mustn't have been fed as well as my siblings. They're all over 5'5 while I'm still only 5'1 :pac:

LenaClaire

green_screen wrote: »

I mustn't have been fed as well as my siblings. They're all over 5'5 while I'm still only 5'1 :pac:

There are lots of other variables involved, this is just a primary one :pac:

I, also, am the shortest of all my family, including cousins but that is due to all the meds I was on as a child Better short than dead!

Gyalist

Tarzana wrote: »

Very astute point. Making people feel bad for being slim is really awful, but not a hope do slim people have it worse than overweight people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVIs0D2acgw

Tarzana

Gyalist wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVIs0D2acgw

Ah, good ol' Chris.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

meeeeh wrote: »

Btw you know you are on top of the social ladder when it is not politically incorrect to make jokes or comments about your appearance.

See that's the thing. On an interaction-by-interaction level this whole skinny-shaming thing does have some kind of effect on me, but it's definitely a privileged problem. All other factors being equal (race, class, gender, etc.) I'm likely to have an easier ride through life than an overweight person. If I'm planning how I'm going about my day I'm not thinking about my weight and how people are going to react.