Schools called to accommodate Isalamic beliefs

Hotblack Desiato

Pwned.

http://www.atheist.ie/2014/09/dr-ali-selim-of-the-islamic-cultural-centre-calls-for-revolution-of-inclusivity-in-irish-schools-and-an-upheaval-in-irish-educational-perspectives/

According to their website the Muslim National School in Dublin is the first state funded primary school for Muslim children in Ireland. It was established by the Islamic Foundation of Ireland in 1990. At present the ethos of the school is not exactly welcoming of those of us who do not share the Islamic ethos and it gives us no indication of how our children will access a neutral studying environment in accordance with human rights law. Hopefully this is all about to change as part of the revolution of inclusivity.

Brown Bomber

recedite wrote: »

TBH I don't find that quote from the Koran very comforting.
There are two justifications for murder there;

Not exactly, there are two justifications for judicial punishments resulting in the death of the accused. This is all beside the point though. What is important is the Iman's interpretation and he is explicit in his rejection and condemnation of ISIS and their violence.

Personally, I think it is important that as a leader of young, naive and impressionable Muslims that he spoke out but it is preposterous to think that he should be obliged to apologise for something that has nothing to do with him in every interview he gives regardless of the topic.

Should Woody Allen have to apologise in every interview he gives for the barbarity of the Jewish State just because he is Jewish? And if he doesn't then the implication being that he is giving tacit support to their violence?

It's a massive misconception that Muslim leaders and groups don't speak out against the terrorist fringe of Islamic extremism. They do. Time and time again. It's just that nobody listens, it doesn't fit the narrative.

I'd have to check this but I'd be fairly sure that Islamic extremists have spoken out against ISIS too. There already was an Islamic state and Mullah Omar is it's Emir.

recedite

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Not exactly, there are two justifications for judicial punishments resulting in the death of the accused.

I don't have much faith in the "justice" of judgements handed down by religious clerics on others during the imposition of Sharia Law either.

I take your point that this guy doesn't speak for, or apologise for, the interpretations of other muslims re the koran and jihad. Its the same point I made. He should be more clear about that.

BuilderPlumber

Of course, there is a need for accommodation of all religions and also non believers in ours schools. However, what we don't want to see is religious extremism take root.

To me, this concentration on so-called 'hijab' is a worrying form of anti-female extremism and a neo-Nazist thing and not Islam. This is a poor, poor argument coming from someone like Dr Ali Selim, an educated man who should know better and be calling for an end to such practices as compulsory veiling of women (which has NO legal status in Islam at all btw). The comparison to the veiled 'Muslim' woman and the German Jew with the Star of David is obvious and it labels a woman as a possession of a fascist male. Selim could be a force for good and speak out against this abysmal fascism. Instead, he goes along with the status quo and is yet another apologist for 'Islamic' fascism. Is he afraid? Is he getting money for spouting such views and defending the undefendable? Or is he a bigot himself despite his education? Hard to know.

Hair covering garments have been traditional for men and women in the Middle East. But for practical and not religious reasons. Desert sand, extreme sun. The Russian Orthodox was the first religion to endorse veils. Not Islam. No religion endorsed Burqas and the like.

Irish women Muslim or otherwise should be allowed to dress as they please and not feel obliged that it is their duty to wear a certain garment because of religious duty especially in the light no such religious duty even exists in any religion. Just because the mostly fascist tyrants that call the shots literally in the Middle East and Africa force this on people and sell it off as 'Islam' does not mean others have to follow this like sheep.

Allowing forced-veiled girls into our schools and thus aiding and abetting fascism is wrong. We need to adhere to our values of freedom and choice and our Muslims deserve this too. Muslim girls should be enlightened and told they too have a choice of dress that is supported 100% by their religion which does not require them to 'cover up'. Likewise, what Selim says about a raffle is more of same: yes, gambling is wrong if done excessively but a raffle for a good cause is charity and completely allowed in Islam. Again, the double standards come to mind: Godolphin, the Aga Khan, the love of horse racing in the Middle East, and the whole thing about predicting a winner rather than betting tells us how our beloved fascist regimes in the Middle East have hypocritical ways of breaking their own rules to suit them. The gambling industry is massive in most of the Gulf States. Large parts of Kildare are owned by Arab horse racing professionals.

Both the Bible and Koran are the two most abused books on the planet and dictators and terrorists have warped their teachings for years.

Nodin

The hijab is not a veil.

SpaceTime

Humans... There are times when my cat seems FAR more rational, logical and sensible!

So much argument over religious beliefs. After a while you just feel like putting on some good music, going for a walk and enjoying the brief time you get maybe 100 years if you're extremely lucky to enjoy just being alive and being sentient.

You'd just get sick of this stuff after a while. Life's for living, not tying yourself in knots about dogmatic beliefs.

evolving_doors

SpaceTime wrote: »

Humans... There are times when my cat seems FAR more rational, logical and sensible!

So much argument over religious beliefs. After a while you just feel like putting on some good music, going for a walk and enjoying the brief time you get maybe 100 years if you're extremely lucky to enjoy just being alive and being sentient.

You'd just get sick of this stuff after a while. Life's for living, not tying yourself in knots about dogmatic beliefs.

Yes, all fine and dandy though, until one has to forget about the cat, music and Joycean preambles and worry about their child in school.

CptMackey

Nodin wrote: »

The hijab is not a veil.

It's still crazy tho. If God created every thing including women then why does their hair offend him so much

BuilderPlumber

CptMackey wrote: »

It's still crazy tho. If God created every thing including women then why does their hair offend him so much

The whole concept of what 'Hijab' meant originally and what it means today is the problem. Women and men were both required to dress modestly (that is to cover up the penis, testicles, backside and breasts). But extremists have taken it to new levels: women to cover their hair and faces, sometimes even everything inclusive of gloves on hands (ISIS for example would like to implement this).

Fascist extremist interpretations of Islam have been like a runaway train: worse and worse interpretations are coming up all the time. 1979 was a huge turning point and a bad year for the Middle East and the world in general and the start of many bad years. A lot of the troublesome organisations and conflicts erupted in that year.

'Islamic' fascism was a problem in 1979 but action was not taken. Pretty much it was left happen in the hope it would cause problems for Russia! By right, the US should have intervened to stop the Revolutionary Guards take over Iran. It instead left them take over. The US should not have supported Saudi Arabia as much and should not have supported al Qaeda/Taliban in the USSR-Afghanistan war. But weakness in 1979 allowed these bad Islamofascists take hold in Iran and win in Afghanistan but inspired much much worse to come into being later on. Now, our 1979 Islamofascists look decent by comparison and one can only look at how emboldened they have got due to they getting away with so much. Even Zawahiri, the 9/11 mastermind, is still free for gods sake. A message has been shown: The Iranian junta took US hostages imprisoned for over a year and the US did not take out the regime in 1981 or any time since after they were released. Then, embassies are attacked in 1998 in Kenya and Tanzania and yet the Taliban are left in power. So, they risk a 9/11 creating a war but still even Zawahiri is left free! America gets bogged down in Iraq and no appetite to fight?

In reality, the 1979 regime in Iran should never have been allowed form. The intervention in Afghanistan and support of Saudi foreign fighters should not have gone ahead. More recently, the Iraq war should not have been fought. Support for Syrian rebels should not have been given either. These are all the things where mistakes were made.

vibe666

it goes back to the old saying of "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

any organisation, given enough power will crave more and more and will be willing to do absolutely anything to get it and keep it, and it doesn't matter where or who, it always goes the same way, whether it be clergy covering up child abuse in Ireland, the Isreali government bombing civilians in Palestine or ISIS promoting the rape, murder and beheadings of men women AND children in Iraq & Syria (and everywhere else if they could).

secularism is the only fair way forward for everyone as it is the only way that doesn't favour one religious group over another. one *might* try and argue that removing religion from schools would give an unfair advantage to already non-religious children, but removing an unfair advantage for one group to elevate all other groups is not the same as GIVING an advantage to a particular group.

I honestly don't blame catholics for wanting to keep things the way they are, afterall it's making life easier for them by them not having to go out of their way to catholicise their kids themselves and a lot of non-catholics are still baptising their kids to get onto easy street schools wise, most people just want an easy life and will try their best to avoid anything that could make it more difficult.

but it's deeply unfair for non-catholic kids in this country at the moment and (as I mentioned in another thread) with practicing catholics currently at around 30% in ireland (according to church figures) and falling faster than almost anywhere else on the planet, plus a rapidly aging and dying off clergy that can't be replaced due to a lack of new priests entering service, there is only one way this is going to go, it's just a matter of time, but when it DOES eventually happen, it will undoubtably mean the end of the church in it's current form in this country within the next generation and I have no doubt at all that they know it which is why they are fighting tooth and nail to stave off the inevitable for as long as they possibly can. every year they manage to fight off a secular schools system in Ireland is a year longer they survive in this country.

Nodin

CptMackey wrote: »

It's still crazy tho. If God created every thing including women then why does their hair offend him so much

That I cannot answer. Making them baldys would have been easier.

CptMackey

Nodin wrote: »

That I cannot answer. Making them baldys would have been easier.

It's something nobody can answer tho because it was made up by man . It is just a tool to control women. Something which all religions are guilty of.

A good a reason as any to not accommodate any religion in schools. Especially any religion that calls for separation of sexes and for girls to cover parts of their bodies because a imaginary friend who happens to be a pedophile says so