Schools called to accommodate Isalamic beliefs

actuallylike

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/call-for-state-schools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810

A spokesman for the Muslim community in Ireland has called for radical change in the educational system to accommodate
children with Islamic beliefs.
Dr Ali Selim, of the Islamic Cultural Centre in Dublin’s Clonskeagh and a lecturer in the Mater Dei Institute and Trinity College,
has called for “a revolution of inclusivity” in Irish schools and “an upheaval in Irish educational perspectives”.
This was necessary to accommodate the needs of a society which is now “home to a variety of Christian denominations, as well
as people of other faiths and of none”, he says in his book Islam and Education in Ireland, to be published next week.
Estimating that of approximately 65,000 Muslims in Ireland today as many as 20,000 would be in the under-18 school-going age,
he relates difficulties these young people face when it comes to admission to schools, as well as their problems with PE classes,
relationship and sexuality education, music and drama classes, and practice of their faith during school hours.

Preference

“Gaining admission to Irish schools is a challenge for Muslims,” Dr Selim says, describing as “legal discrimination” section 15 of the 1998 Education Act which
allows schools give preference to pupils on faith grounds. It was a “major problem for non-Catholic children who apply to them because of proximity or quality
of education”, he says.
This continued despite a prohibition of discrimination on religion grounds by all recent Equal Status Acts, he says and quotes the
example of a Catholic boys’ secondary school in Dublin that says in its policy statement: “Non-Catholic enrolment will only be
considered in the event of being undersubscribed.” In its order of priorities for admittance the school only begins to consider the
admission of non-Catholics at point number seven.
More generally Dr Selim says , “Muslim festivals are neither celebrated or marked in the calendar in Irish schools.”
He suggests they be days off for Muslim children. During Ramadan, the month of fasting, Muslims give to charity and schools
could co-operate by “raising funds for the poor and the needy”. But, he points out, “any form of raffle is strictly forbidden in
Islam”.
About the RSE programme in schools Dr Selim says there are “crucial differences” with Islam. It forbids pre- and extramarital
sexual relations, whereas RSE perceives sexual relations outside wedlock as part of normal practices.”
He suggests there is “a clash of values” also between Islam and “traditional ways of teaching PE”. In some schools, “under the
guise of health and safety, Muslim girls are obliged to take off their headscarves for PE classes, which is not acceptable to
them”.

‘Persistent’

Where schools were “persistent”, they should “employ a female PE teacher and provide students with a sports hall not accessible to men during times when girls
are at play. They should also not be visible to men while at play.”
Also, Muslim girls would resist changing clothes in a communal area.
When it came to music some Muslims would see it as prohibited but “if music is performed using non-tuneable percussion
instruments such as drums, most Muslims will have no problem”.
On school plays Dr Selim points out that “physical contact between members of the opposite sex who can be legally married is
forbidden in Islam” and that “gender role-reversal is not permissible”.
Acting “in a way that may arouse sexual feeling or give sexual hints causes objection.”

Well, I saw this coming. Will be interesting to see how it goes though. I personally think nothing will happen. If it's taken so long for non denominational schools to get any sort of input, I can't see this getting any traction. If anything though it's just another form of Pastafarianism to me. It's a religion the majority outright reject but have to realise that it is nonetheless a religion, meaning the only way to rationally deal with it is to eradicate all religions. This Ali Selim could do more for secularism than anyone else .

Getting to his requests though, they seem pretty brutal. Girls would have a separate gym to stop men looking at them when they have their head scarves off? No inadvertent touching of boys and girls, meaning school plays would be difficult if not impossible? I'm glad he's going the full hog and requesting such ridiculous things. It shows it up for the nonsense that it is and that's why I'm confident that nothing will happen other than a more secular education sysem be sought after.

Frank Lee Midere

Well, we still have a lot of single sex schools so some of those demands are easier than in other countries.

ahnowbrowncow

How about schools stop accommodating all religious beliefs?

I can't get enough of those non-tuneable percussive instruments. The man has a point.

who_me

Acting “in a way that may arouse sexual feeling or give sexual hints causes objection.”

Easy, just ban children above the age of 12/13..

magicbastarder

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Well, we still have a lot of single sex schools so some of those demands are easier than in other countries.

the majority of which, i suspect, would have an even more catholic ethos than
the mixed schools.

Savage93

actuallylike wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/call-for-state-schools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810



Well, I saw this coming. Will be interesting to see how it goes though. I personally think nothing will happen. If it's taken so long for non denominational schools to get any sort of input, I can't see this getting any traction. If anything though it's just another form of Pastafarianism to me. It's a religion the majority outright reject but have to realise that it is nonetheless a religion, meaning the only way to rationally deal with it is to eradicate all religions. This Ali Selim could do more for secularism than anyone else .

Getting to his requests though, they seem pretty brutal. Girls would have a separate gym to stop men looking at them when they have their head scarves off? No inadvertent touching of boys and girls, meaning school plays would be difficult if not impossible? I'm glad he's going the full hog and requesting such ridiculous things. It shows it up for the nonsense that it is and that's why I'm confident that nothing will happen other than a more secular education sysem be sought after.

No mention of butchery of non muslims in Iraq or condemnation of same by this eminent religious official of the muslim faith

wrt40

I don't think it would be too difficult to teach children that they are not allowed to touch their muslim class mates or to have some sort of privacy in the changing room or to let the muslim kids bang on bin lids during music sessions. But letting them have a prayer room or to up and leave the class to do prayers is a step too far. What about all the other religions, do they get their prayer time too? at what point do you stop? Should we have a sacrificial alter and stop for 15 mins every day to slaughter a lamb?

zef

Savage93 wrote: »

No mention of butchery of non muslims in Iraq or condemnation of same by this eminent religious official of the muslim faith

If you read the article its nothing more than a book review for this guys next book. So why should there be?

Cabaal

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

How about schools stop accommodating all religious beliefs?

That is really the only real solution,
Its either that or we waste tax payer money on different restrictions for different religions in schools or we built more and more schools to meet all the restrictions.

The solution is no religion in any tax payer funded school, outside of that if you want ANY special treatment then go build, run and fund your own school...but it still must operate within the laws of the Irish state and meet Dept Of Ed guidelines.

Turtwig

Worst case scenario is we go the state faith schools route.

Pherekydes

Apart from banning pianos, ham sandwiches, gyms, contact sports, the school hop, singing, laughter, swimming, sports days, school trips, science, music, birdsong and custard, I see no problems with this guy's opinions.

Turtwig

Pherekydes wrote: »

Apart from banning pianos, ham sandwiches, gyms, contact sports, the school hop, singing, laughter, swimming, sports days, school trips, science, music, birdsong and custard, I see no problems with this guy's opinions.

Really you see no problem with the statement there's no such thing as a gay Muslim?

:pac:

evolving_doors

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Well, we still have a lot of single sex schools so some of those demands are easier than in other countries.

Girls schools with male PE teachers though! He'd be against that... poor fella forgot about female teachers who might be lesbian too..haha. (not that theres anything wrong with that in my books it has to be said).

Problems with music!! wtf? I would agree that some pop songs sung are highly sexualised and objectify women but I know the way he wants it to go... During our HDip we were guest lectured by the principal to the muslim school in clonskeagh where he gleefully told us that music was TOTALLY outlawed in the school. This was to be fair to everyone ... Don't forget many muslim traditions have a deep musical heritage predating our 'pseudo' traditional irish music... but no, music gone.

Any issues the principal/parents had...straight to the Imam for a decision.

I am glad he.started the debate though as there was a muslim secondary school due to be built in D15 iirc...

Talk about battle lines being drawn ! French system is best... if you wanna do religion ,do it outside school in your time.

Gatling

Would this mean schools wouldn't be able to celebrate Christmas or the likes of Saint patricks day .
Be interesting to see how to explain to kids boys and girls are equals.
Unless religion is involved

Cabaal

Gatling wrote: »

Be interesting to see how to explain to kids boys and girls are equals.
Unless religion is involved

Thats the thing, religion is involved so boys and girls are not equal by any stretch of the imagination.

It doesn't change when they grow up either, muslim faith, catholic faith it doesn't matter......the outcome is the same, the only difference is how extreme it is and that only varies on the people who inflict teach the religion, not the religion itself.

vibe666

time to make a stand on behalf of all our kids and get them some pirate costumes for school so they can practice their pastafarianism unimpeded by religious persecution.

being as we're going to be making allowances for all religious beliefs now in the education system.

actuallylike

Gatling wrote: »

Would this mean schools wouldn't be able to celebrate Christmas or the likes of Saint patricks day .
Be interesting to see how to explain to kids boys and girls are equals.
Unless religion is involved

Christmas would mean nothing religious to my children. I would treat it as a family holiday and teach it as a time to be together (pretty much what it was before it was hijacked). I think that to most of the people I know that's how it goes. I know very little if any who focus on the religious side of it, apart from going to church, which is purely a cultural thing.

St Patricks as well is a cultural thing. Yes he's the Patron Saint but again it brings Irish people together for been Irish (well that's how it's supposed to be). In the parade every year I see very little religious aspects, more snakes to be honest :rolleyes:.

It would be easy enough to explain to somebody that these holidays are present in Ireland so Irish people can celebrate their Irish identity (whatever that may be) and to stay close to their family.

Cabaal

actuallylike wrote: »

Christmas would mean nothing religious

I'm looking forward to this year, we get to replace our star on the tree with our new addition which we bought back in May
I jokingly suggested it to my wife and she was all for the purchase.

St Patricks as well is a cultural thing.

St Paddy's day is basically Ireland day, thats basically it.
Of course for alot of Ireland is not even Ireland day...its lets get totally **** faced day...far from religious

Bicycle

And if you are the parent of a child with a disability, you will find it so difficult to get any form of accommodation, no matter how small.

One thing many parents of a child with Asperger Syndrome or Sensory Processing Disorder would like is a quiet room, in their school, where the child could go when they are suffering from sensory overload.

We're not looking for a gym or a changing room. We don't want to ban drums or pianos or feckin tin whistles. Just a small room, 10 foot x 6 foot would do, doesn't have to be fancy, where our child can go just to sit quietly until the anxiety dissipates.

Lets accommodate EVERYONE, not just selective groups.

Help!!!!

To be honest we in Ireland want to be careful we don't go down the same path as the U.K.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZBaJU_Cvo

I know there will be some that will give smart ass questions in reply to this but it is Muslim mind set that everyone should be Muslim
Worked with many in the U.K. & had many interesting chats about religion & beliefs

Richard tea

Pherekydes wrote: »

Apart from banning pianos, ham sandwiches, gyms, contact sports, the school hop, singing, laughter, swimming, sports days, school trips, science, music, birdsong and custard, I see no problems with this guy's opinions.

You left out clapping. Watched a channel 4 documentary recently and seemingly the allah chap is offended by clapping

traprunner

Children don't have any beliefs apart from those imposed upon them. All schools should be secular. Let children with parents of no faith or different faiths mix. Let them be children.

vibe666

traprunner wrote: »

Children don't have any beliefs apart from those imposed upon them. All schools should be secular. Let children with parents of no faith or different faiths mix. Let them be children.

aaaand /thread

Cabaal

Help!!!! wrote: »

To be honest we in Ireland want to be careful we don't go down the same path as the U.K.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZBaJU_Cvo

I know there will be some that will give smart ass questions in reply to this but it is Muslim mind set that everyone should be Muslim
Worked with many in the U.K. & had many interesting chats about religion & beliefs

No we don't want to go down the route of the uk, but neither do we want to stay as we are.

The current situation in Ireland is everyone should be catholic, hence the catholic ethos school issue.

robindch

Richard tea wrote: »

Watched a channel 4 documentary recently and seemingly the allah chap is offended by clapping

Common misinterpretation. When you read it in context, turns out that Allah is offended by The Clap.(*)


(*) Which is perhaps a little odd, given that He created it.

lazygal

If Allah didn't want us to clap, why did he give us two hands?

krudler

I laughed at this way more than I should have:

any form of raffle is strictly forbidden in
Islam”.

masonchat

Help!!!! wrote: »

To be honest we in Ireland want to be careful we don't go down the same path as the U.K.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZBaJU_Cvo

I know there will be some that will give smart ass questions in reply to this but it is Muslim mind set that everyone should be Muslim
Worked with many in the U.K. & had many interesting chats about religion & beliefs

The opening up of borders was great for many reasons and in an ideal world the way you would like it to be.

And i find it hard to comment on this without seeming very racist , i am not racist at all but i am nationalistic i do believe in looking after your own citizens first.

If i went to a foreign country i would respect their laws and customs weather i was there for a day or life.

Grab a few paddys and march down some middle eastern city chanting burn in hell allah and see what reception you get

To put it simply , come to my country by all means cead mile failte, but fit in or f off

Hotblack Desiato

Disappointing that Dr Selim is unaware that drums are a tuneable instrument...

splashthecash

This boils my blood - I say no fuppin' way. I don't necessarily think that teaching religion in schools adds anything, never got anything out of it myself. The whole communion\confirmation thing is obviously pretty central but just the thought of this being brought up in any of the Islamic countries to change the way their state schools are run to accomodate the Catholic faith....we'd be laughed out of there.

CptMackey

Very dangerous if people actually listen to this rubbish. Should have no religion in schools at all. Least of all any religion that is based on some goat hearder thousands of years ago.
The sooner people leave religion behind the better.

masonchat

splashthecash wrote: »

This boils my blood - I say no fuppin' way. I don't necessarily think that teaching religion in schools adds anything, never got anything out of it myself. The whole communion\confirmation thing is obviously pretty central but just the thought of this being brought up in any of the Islamic countries to change the way their state schools are run to accomodate the Catholic faith....we'd be laughed out of there.

No you would be on a video uploaded with your head on your back lol

coolbeans

Lay schools. That is all.

Dades

Ironic how he believes "a revolution of inclusivity" in Irish schools can be brought about by separating children for prayer, music, PE, etc.

I wonder if there's a single Islamic country on the planet amenable to accommodating the beliefs of non-Muslims in their State schools...

splashthecash

With regards to the Muslim faith, there is a very strong belief that it is their way or the highway (i.e. hell) and I believe that allowing this, or in fact anything that remotely entertains the idea at a later date will only lead to situations similar to what is being seen in the UK - its an awful f*ck-up over there

Philip7304

Why do we have to accommodate this religion so much.....why cant we just say no...

flutered

has the seperate class rooms for girls, got anything to do with the muslim tradition of grooming young girls for underage sex.

Help!!!!

Cabaal wrote: »

No we don't want to go down the route of the uk, but neither do we want to stay as we are.

The current situation in Ireland is everyone should be catholic, hence the catholic ethos school issue.

I'm not religious but Ireland is a Christian country & so should stay that way.
I do not agree with Muslims wanting to come & change it. It would not happen in a Muslim country. So if they come they must integrate.
The problem with the U.K. is they bent over backwards to the extent that a white Englishman will get no council house even after paying taxes all there lives but a Somali family will come in & get a 4 bedroom house

Help!!!!

Philip7304 wrote: »

Why do we have to accommodate this religion so much.....why cant we just say no...

Totally agree, once they get the foot in the door they more they want to change.

Help!!!!

splashthecash wrote: »

This boils my blood - I say no fuppin' way. I don't necessarily think that teaching religion in schools adds anything, never got anything out of it myself. The whole communion\confirmation thing is obviously pretty central but just the thought of this being brought up in any of the Islamic countries to change the way their state schools are run to accomodate the Catholic faith....we'd be laughed out of there.

you would be very lucky if it was only laughing they did to you

Help!!!!

Dades wrote: »

Ironic how he believes "a revolution of inclusivity" in Irish schools can be brought about by separating children for prayer, music, PE, etc.

I wonder if there's a single Islamic country on the planet amenable to accommodating the beliefs of non-Muslims in their State schools...

I don't understand if they want all these things then why don't they go to a Muslim country....At least the weather will be nicer

Help!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY8K9Jt6dHQ

Would we allow it to get to this in Ireland?

Bertser

Assimilation and secularism please.

FairytaleGirl

'This boils my blood - I say no fuppin' way. I don't necessarily think that teaching religion in schools adds anything, never got anything out of it myself. The whole communion\confirmation thing is obviously pretty central but just the thought of this being brought up in any of the Islamic countries to change the way their state schools are run to accomodate the Catholic faith....we'd be jailed, tortured then stoned to death for offending Allah '


FYP

lazygal

Help!!!! wrote: »

I'm not religious but Ireland is a Christian country & so should stay that way.
I do not agree with Muslims wanting to come & change it. It would not happen in a Muslim country. So if they come they must integrate.
The problem with the U.K. is they bent over backwards to the extent that a white Englishman will get no council house even after paying taxes all there lives but a Somali family will come in & get a 4 bedroom house

Ireland is not a Christian country. It is a country with christian people living in it, as well as others. I and my family are Irish despite not being Christian.

Help!!!!

lazygal wrote: »

Ireland is not a Christian country. It is a country with christian people living in it, as well as others. I and my family are Irish despite not being Christian.

It is a Christian country the same way as Israel is a Jewish country etc.

endacl

Help!!!! wrote: »

It is a Christian country the same way as Israel is a Jewish country etc.

lazygal

Help!!!! wrote: »

It is a Christian country the same way as Israel is a Jewish country etc.

How so?

Help!!!!

Because the majority of people here are Christian
There are minority religions & beliefs living in Ireland
If not a chrisitan country then what would you call it?

lazygal

Help!!!! wrote: »

Because the majority of people here are Christian
There are minority religions & beliefs living in Ireland
If not a chrisitan country then what would you call it?

A country. Like how my children are children not atheist or Catholic or Dianna Fail children.