Sea the Stars

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. the horses you've listed left a question mark on their ability as a 4 year old.

Sea The Stars didn't have anything left to prove at the end of his 3 year old career. He'd already won everything. he had probably the most successful classic season in history. Frankel's achievements as a three-year-old weren't in the same league. He had to run as a four-year-old to prove himself.

Peintre Celebre

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

I can understand why one would say that. BUT what do you do if you want to race your Horse past 3 years old ? STS left a big question mark in that category and His Owner provided a great disservice to his stallion CV by not running at 4. He is off to a solid start but if his horses hit the wall at 4 Breeders will move away from him.

In fairness you are using Sea the Stars to produce a quality classic horse. The way they've trained from 2 to 3 they'll more than likely improve as they get older

FIVE2_THREE

ronsh2000 wrote: »

Sea The Stars didn't have anything left to prove at the end of his 3 year old career. He'd already won everything. he had probably the most successful classic season in history. Frankel's achievements as a three-year-old weren't in the same league. He had to run as a four-year-old to prove himself.

I disagree. Frankels Guineas run supplied all the ammunition needed to secure that breeders would flock to him. Speed in Europe is at a premium. very few horses can run horses off their feet like he did. on one hand their is Dayjur, Slade Power and Frankel. who else can you think of ? maybe star spangled banner ?

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

In fairness you are using Sea the Stars to produce a quality classic horse. The way they've trained from 2 to 3 they'll more than likely improve as they get older

Time will tell.

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

I disagree. Frankels Guineas run supplied all the ammunition needed to secure that breeders would flock to him. Speed in Europe is at a premium. very few horses can run horses off their feet like he did. on one hand their is Dayjur, Slade Power and Frankel. who else can you think of ? maybe star spangled banner ?

It was a sub-standard Guineas though. The only horse other than Frankel to come out of it and win a Group One was Roderick O'Connor, and he lost his chance at the start and didn't compete. Almost all of the others ended up running in handicaps. He made them look like handicappers because by and large that's what they were, apart from the odd good 2-y-o who hadn't trained on. e.g., Pathfork.

FIVE2_THREE

ronsh2000 wrote: »

It was a sub-standard Guineas though. The only horse other than Frankel to come out of it and win a Group One was Roderick O'Connor, and he lost his chance at the start and didn't compete. Almost all of the others ended up running in handicaps. He made them look like handicappers because by and large that's what they were, apart from the odd good 2-y-o who hadn't trained on. e.g., Pathfork.

Saying the field was "Sub standard" makes no account for his overall ability. ok Exclude the Guineas race. What about his Queen Anne smashing ? or The International he won on the bridle ? The horse has speed for days. something very few horses in Europe have. and that's a commodity becoming ever more important.

hucklebuck

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Despite the calls of Sea the stars being a horse of a life time he really isn't.

Fast peaking 3 year olds whose talent would have obviously declined at 4.

Lammtara went to stud at 3 with a sire fee of £30,000 in 1995.
£30,000 today is equivalent to £43,748, an offley high sire fee for a horse who only won 4 races, No ?

Dancing Brave was sent to stud at a fee of £120,000 in 1986.
£120,000 today is £ 258,961.

So while Sea The Stars is modestly priced at 85,000 compared to Frankels £125,000. Frankel's fee reflects not just his record as a horse or his pedigree but most importantly it is unprecedented that a horse of his caliber has gone to stud.

Ribot was syndicated By Lord Derby in 1959 for $1.35 million to Derby Dan Farm in the U.S.
if that deal were to take place today it would be worth $11,052,835.05/£ 6,770,662.10

Nijinsky II was syndicated for $5,440,000 in 1970 to Claiborne Farm in the U.S.
Today that deal would be worth $33,404,123.71/ £20,461,317.39

Lastly, The Minstrel was purchased for $200,000 in 1975($885,687.73 in today's money) and sold back to his Breeder EP Taylor for $9,000,000 ($35,383,663.37/£21,673,861.98 in Today's Money)

Sorry but that is nonsense about STS obviously declining at 4, John Oxx told me STS was thriving and put on 85kg between the Arc and early April, sounds more like he would have been a much improved horse at 4.

Using inflation to justify a horses current day price simply doesnt work. Nijinksky and Minstrel were both by Northern Dancer and his yearlings were changing hands for a million at that time. Sure Northern Dancer was $1,000,000 a cover from the late 70s on

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Saying the field was "Sub standard" makes no account for his overall ability. ok Exclude the Guineas race. What about his Queen Anne smashing ? or The International he won on the bridle ? The horse has speed for days. something very few horses in Europe have. and that's a commodity becoming ever more important.

I'm not saying he wasn't a brilliant horse. I'd argue that speed is becoming less important though, now that American sires are less dominant. What differentiates European horses and makes them superior nowadays is their ability to stay. and I think that's a healthy thing for horse racing.

FIVE2_THREE

ronsh2000 wrote: »

I'm not saying he wasn't a brilliant horse. I'd argue that speed is becoming less important though, now that American sires are less dominant. What differentiates European horses and makes them superior nowadays is their ability to stay. and I think that's a healthy thing for horse racing.

Ascot just carded a Group 1 for next year over a 6f speed is becoming more and more Important to offset the staying ability.

FIVE2_THREE

hucklebuck wrote: »

Sorry but that is nonsense about STS obviously declining at 4, John Oxx told me STS was thriving and put on 85kg between the Arc and early April, sounds more like he would have been a much improved horse at 4.

Using inflation to justify a horses current day price simply doesnt work. Nijinksky and Minstrel were both by Northern Dancer and his yearlings were changing hands for a million at that time. Sure Northern Dancer was $1,000,000 a cover from the late 70s on

Indeed it dose work. it puts things into a proper perspective in relation to today's financial structure. I know all about ND he stood only one season at a million with no Guarantee.

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Ascot just carded a Group 1 for next year over a 6f speed is becoming more and more Important to offset the staying ability.

Ballydoyle run top class horses in the Ascot Gold Cup. That's something that didn't happen in the '80s or '90s.

FIVE2_THREE

ronsh2000 wrote: »

Ballydoyle run top class horses in the Ascot Gold Cup. That's something that didn't happen in the '80s or '90s.

England and Ireland are in no short supply of staying horses. After all they are a necessity given the popularity of National Hunt horses. on the flip side of that England and Ireland are not known for producing horses who can excel on the sprinting stage. How often have we seen Australian and America horses come over during Royal Ascot to blow away Irish and English horses ? Black Caviar No Nay Never ? England and Ireland must be able to combat those horses and I think a horse like Frankel can offer support in that area because He has blistering speed that he can carry.

hucklebuck

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

I can understand why one would say that. BUT what do you do if you want to race your Horse past 3 years old ? STS left a big question mark in that category and His Owner provided a great disservice to his stallion CV by not running at 4. He is off to a solid start but if his horses hit the wall at 4 Breeders will move away from him.

Dunno how anyone could even suggest there is even the hint of a question mark over Sea The Stars. The horse won horse of the year and Champion 3 year old, winner of six group 1s in 5 months over distances between 8f and 14f and the first horse to win the Guineas, Derby and Arc in one year.

Using that rationale should Frankel have run until he was 6, because owners who want to keep racing won't know what he was like as a 5 year old.

hucklebuck

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

I disagree. Frankels Guineas run supplied all the ammunition needed to secure that breeders would flock to him. Speed in Europe is at a premium. very few horses can run horses off their feet like he did. on one hand their is Dayjur, Slade Power and Frankel. who else can you think of ? maybe star spangled banner ?

Sick of hearing this rubbish about his Guineas, they were coming back to him at the end. STS ran his Guineas quicker too and he finished with tons left.

FIVE2_THREE

hucklebuck wrote: »

Sick of hearing this rubbish about his Guineas, they were coming back to him at the end. STS ran his Guineas quicker too and he finished with tons left.

The proof is in the numbers people are lined up around the corner to pay £125,000 for Frankel, STS is on 85k Euros and can't fill his Book

hucklebuck

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Indeed it dose work. it puts things into a proper perspective in relation to today's financial structure. I know all about ND he stood only one season at a million with no Guarantee.

Wrong, he was $1M for at least 6 years at the end.

No it doesn't as already discussed in the thread the values of stallions peak and trough year on year, applying inflation which is an economic indicator is massively flawed.

If you buy a house this year for €330,000, assuming annual inflation of 3%, it would have been worth €99,631 in 1974.

The mortgage for the house bought in 2014 would have a fixed interest rate of 4%, whereas the house bought in 1974 had a 13% fixed interest rate. Using €330,000, if you paid the current day €20,000 off each mortgage a year, in 2038 the 4% mortgage is clear whereas on the 13% you would have over €3,000,000 to pay back.

hucklebuck

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

The proof is in the numbers people are lined up around the corner to pay £125,000 for Frankel, STS is on 85k Euros and can't fill his Book

You are the one saying Frankel was one of the quickest around without mentioning STS and now it's back to the price, which is back to breeding.

It's clear you are a Frankel fan but it's silly to rubbish a bombproof horse in order to try convince people Frankel is better and no I don't want another Frankel V STS

tryfix

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Saying the field was "Sub standard" makes no account for his overall ability. ok Exclude the Guineas race. What about his Queen Anne smashing ? or The International he won on the bridle ? The horse has speed for days. something very few horses in Europe have. and that's a commodity becoming ever more important.

He didn't win the International on the bridle, he was deliberately pushed out just as he was in the Queen Anne and just as he had been in all his impressive wins.

Which brings me to the BHA handicapper.

Fact 1. Frankel was pushed out on soft ground to beat the exposed German 6yo Indominito 108 by 12 1/2l = 25lbs = a 133 performance. The BHA handicapper rated it 140.

Fact 2. After raising the thrashed Indominito 4 lbs to 112 to justify Frankel's 140, even though that left Frankel 3lb shy of 140. Indominito went on to be beaten 10l by Excelebration in his next race ( a 105 performance ) followed by another 10 1/2l beating by Excelebration on soft ground.

Then he gave Frankel another 140 ( all time greatest horse ) for a 7l 12-13lb pushed out beating of Farrh OR 122 and St Nicholas Abbey over 10 1/2f ( a trip St Nicholas Abbey never won over ) in the Juddmonte. He's throwing in 5lbs for Frankel for supposedly having lots left in the locker and again raising the beaten horse Farhh from his Eclipse 2nd mark despite him getting thrashed here. Raising thrashed horses, like wtf?

Now he rates Australia 126 for an excellent Juddmonte win where the other International handicappers rate it 127-128. There's something disconcerting about this BHA handicapper, Frankel gets raised 7lbs more than the actual performance for consistency and having something in the locker despite being pushed out in his wins while the likes of Australia who wins somewhat cosily gets a 1lb bonus for his consistency and for having something in the locker while the improving Arod 109 is used as the base for Australias rating with no improvement allowed for the horse while extravagant improvements are judged for more exposed and totally exposed horses to boost Frankel.

It extends to decisions like seeing Taghrooda run to her new Handicap rating of 124 in a 7l beating of 113 rated Tasaday and rating the Winner Tapestry 4lb inferior to Taghrooda at 120 using the staying on 10l beaten 3yo Lustrous at 104 to give the lowest possible rating to the winner, despite the improving listed winner Lustrous having finished a staying on 2nd to the Irish Oaks winner Bracelet in the Ribblesdale at Ascot before bombing in the Irish Oaks and then finishing 5th beaten 6l over an inadequate trip in a 10f GP 1 before the Yorkshire oaks.

Only magic Frankel can raise the lower orders in the BHA handicapper's mind.

hucklebuck

tryfix wrote: »

He didn't win the International on the bridle, he was deliberately pushed out just as he was in the Queen Anne and just as he had been in all his impressive wins.

Which brings me to the BHA handicapper.

Fact 1. Frankel was pushed out on soft ground to beat the exposed German 6yo Indominito 108 by 12 1/2l = 25lbs = a 133 performance. The BHA handicapper rated it 140.

Fact 2. After raising the thrashed Indominito 4 lbs to 112 to justify Frankel's 140, even though that left Frankel 3lb shy of 140. Indominito went on to be beaten 10l by Excelebration in his next race ( a 105 performance ) followed by another 10 1/2l beating by Excelebration on soft ground.

Then he gave Frankel another 140 ( all time greatest horse ) for a 7l 12-13lb pushed out beating of Farrh OR 122 and St Nicholas Abbey over 10 1/2f ( a trip St Nicholas Abbey never won over ) in the Juddmonte. He's throwing in 5lbs for Frankel for supposedly having lots left in the locker and again raising the beaten horse Farhh from his Eclipse 2nd mark despite him getting thrashed here. Raising thrashed horses, like wtf?

Now he rates Australia 126 for an excellent Juddmonte win where the other International handicappers rate it 127-128. There's something disconcerting about this BHA handicapper, Frankel gets raised 7lbs more than the actual performance for consistency and having something in the locker despite being pushed out in his wins while the likes of Australia who wins somewhat cosily gets a 1lb bonus for his consistency and for having something in the locker while the improving Arod 109 is used as the base for Australias rating with no improvement allowed for the horse while extravagant improvements are judged for more exposed and totally exposed horses to boost Frankel.

It extends to decisions like seeing Taghrooda run to her new Handicap rating of 124 in a 7l beating of 113 rated Tasaday and rating the Winner Tapestry 4lb inferior to Taghrooda at 120 using the staying on 10l beaten 3yo Lustrous at 104 to give the lowest possible rating to the winner, despite the improving listed winner Lustrous having finished a staying on 2nd to the Irish Oaks winner Bracelet in the Ribblesdale at Ascot before bombing in the Irish Oaks and then finishing 5th beaten 6l over an inadequate trip in a 10f GP 1 before the Yorkshire oaks.

Only magic Frankel can raise the lower orders in the BHA handicapper's mind.

I got slated here for saying Frankel was over generously assessed because of Abdullah, Grimpthorpe and a sick Cecil being involved. The handicapper always said that he could only assess STS on his winning distances even though he finished a lot of races easing down with his head in his chest after doing the job.

The champion stakes was another one where the opposition were in an around where they should be compared to each other with Cirrus Des Aigles 2L or less and Nathaniel 5L or less behind him and he was left at 140, they are good animals but certainly aren't 135 sorts.

tryfix

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

England and Ireland are in no short supply of staying horses. After all they are a necessity given the popularity of National Hunt horses. on the flip side of that England and Ireland are not known for producing horses who can excel on the sprinting stage. How often have we seen Australian and America horses come over during Royal Ascot to blow away Irish and English horses ? Black Caviar No Nay Never ? England and Ireland must be able to combat those horses and I think a horse like Frankel can offer support in that area because He has blistering speed that he can carry.

Frankel ain't going to deliver sprinting speed, he's got a 12f D1 of 0.94, he never raced below 7f, made his debut at 1 mile and coped with 10 1/2f easily.

His dam is a wonder, she's out of a Lancashire Oaks winning daughter of Rainbow Quest and she was a sprinter, so there may be hope but really there's very little hope that he will be siring sprinters, although Rip Van Winkle who's faster on the dam side than Frankel seems capable of coming close to doing so.

FIVE2_THREE

hucklebuck wrote: »

You are the one saying Frankel was one of the quickest around without mentioning STS and now it's back to the price, which is back to breeding.

It's clear you are a Frankel fan but it's silly to rubbish a bombproof horse in order to try convince people Frankel is better and no I don't want another Frankel V STS

There are people who have skin in the game and who have decided. I don't need to convince anybody of anything because they have already established their opinions. Numbers speak louder than words and the fact remains 125 BPS with a full book for a first year stallion VS a 85,000 Euro stallion with just 90 or so mares. Clearly the breeders have spoken.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

Frankel ain't going to deliver sprinting speed, he's got a 12f D1 of 0.94, he never raced below 7f, made his debut at 1 mile and coped with 10 1/2f easily.

His dam is a wonder, she's out of a Lancashire Oaks winning daughter of Rainbow Quest and she was a sprinter, so there may be hope but really there's very little hope that he will be siring sprinters, although Rip Van Winkle who's faster on the dam side than Frankel seems capable of coming close to doing so.

We Don't know what he's going to deliver. Nothing is ever in stone.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

He didn't win the International on the bridle, he was deliberately pushed out just as he was in the Queen Anne and just as he had been in all his impressive wins.

Which brings me to the BHA handicapper.

Fact 1. Frankel was pushed out on soft ground to beat the exposed German 6yo Indominito 108 by 12 1/2l = 25lbs = a 133 performance. The BHA handicapper rated it 140.

Fact 2. After raising the thrashed Indominito 4 lbs to 112 to justify Frankel's 140, even though that left Frankel 3lb shy of 140. Indominito went on to be beaten 10l by Excelebration in his next race ( a 105 performance ) followed by another 10 1/2l beating by Excelebration on soft ground.

Then he gave Frankel another 140 ( all time greatest horse ) for a 7l 12-13lb pushed out beating of Farrh OR 122 and St Nicholas Abbey over 10 1/2f ( a trip St Nicholas Abbey never won over ) in the Juddmonte. He's throwing in 5lbs for Frankel for supposedly having lots left in the locker and again raising the beaten horse Farhh from his Eclipse 2nd mark despite him getting thrashed here. Raising thrashed horses, like wtf?

Now he rates Australia 126 for an excellent Juddmonte win where the other International handicappers rate it 127-128. There's something disconcerting about this BHA handicapper, Frankel gets raised 7lbs more than the actual performance for consistency and having something in the locker despite being pushed out in his wins while the likes of Australia who wins somewhat cosily gets a 1lb bonus for his consistency and for having something in the locker while the improving Arod 109 is used as the base for Australias rating with no improvement allowed for the horse while extravagant improvements are judged for more exposed and totally exposed horses to boost Frankel.

It extends to decisions like seeing Taghrooda run to her new Handicap rating of 124 in a 7l beating of 113 rated Tasaday and rating the Winner Tapestry 4lb inferior to Taghrooda at 120 using the staying on 10l beaten 3yo Lustrous at 104 to give the lowest possible rating to the winner, despite the improving listed winner Lustrous having finished a staying on 2nd to the Irish Oaks winner Bracelet in the Ribblesdale at Ascot before bombing in the Irish Oaks and then finishing 5th beaten 6l over an inadequate trip in a 10f GP 1 before the Yorkshire oaks.

Only magic Frankel can raise the lower orders in the BHA handicapper's mind.

On the bridle off the bridle. have it whatever way you like the fact remains he won it and won it decisively.

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

On the bridle off the bridle. have it whatever way you like the fact remains he won it and won it decisively.

he didn't win the Derby though.

tryfix

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

On the bridle off the bridle. have it whatever way you like the fact remains he won it and won it decisively.

Correct and the horse is indeed one of the greatest of all time, but it wasn't the greatest performance of all time as its rating would wrongly imply that it should be seen as such.

hucklebuck

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

There are people who have skin in the game and who have decided. I don't need to convince anybody of anything because they have already established their opinions. Numbers speak louder than words and the fact remains 125 BPS with a full book for a first year stallion VS a 85,000 Euro stallion with just 90 or so mares. Clearly the breeders have spoken.

Thought that wasn't right, he too covered 130 mares in his first season, 90 of them/ their dams were group 1 winners.

http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/zarkava-darjina-spirit-of-tara-drama-class-sea-the-stars-set-to-cover-over-90-group-1-mares/680556/

FIVE2_THREE

ronsh2000 wrote: »

he didn't win the Derby though.

That's OK Nor did Sadlers Wells.

FIVE2_THREE

hucklebuck wrote: »

Thought that wasn't right, he too covered 130 mares in his first season, 90 of them/ their dams were group 1 winners.

http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/zarkava-darjina-spirit-of-tara-drama-class-sea-the-stars-set-to-cover-over-90-group-1-mares/680556/

And yet he's still stuck at 85,000. and his cover mares have drooped in number since his first year at stud. that sound to me like the breeders are not all that impressed.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

Correct and the horse is indeed one of the greatest of all time, but it wasn't the greatest performance of all time as its rating would wrongly imply that it should be seen as such.

As an American who spent 20 years in this sport one thing I've learned about ratings is to let the people charged with that task sort it out for them self's.

FIVE2_THREE

Sea the Moon headed to stud Soon. maybe in 2015
http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/owner-outlines-sea-the-moon-stud-plans/1715270/top/