Sea the Stars

FIVE2_THREE

Maybe it's me but I always thought Sea the stars would be in high demand as a Stallion but the numbers in the article show otherwise. Maybe the daunting presence and influence of Galileo has hurt him or maybe the breeders are not all that impressed by his first foals but to go from covering 150 foals to just 96 is a big drop.


Sea The Stars set pulses racing during the flat season in 2009, becoming World Champion with wins in the 2000G/Epsom Derby & Prix De L'Arc De Triomphe. When it was announced the unbeaten three-year-old would be retired to stud, rumours were circulating that he would be sold to stand in Japan. Thankfully his owners the T'sui's were dedicated to keeping him in Ireland. It was then rumoured that he would stand at The Irish National Stud, where he was foaled and raised & also where his dam the legendary Urban Sea spent until her death in April 2009. It was later announced Sea The Stars would stand at The Aga Khan studs alongside proven Group 1 sires Dalakhani & Azamour. With a fee set at €85,000, 130 mares were booked to the impeccably bred six times Group 1 winner, among them were 90 Group 1 winners/producers.

Sea The Stars was always guaranteed to become a successful stallion. By leading miler Cape Cross, a son of the top class Green Desert. Sea The Stars was out of Arc winner Urban Sea. His half siblings included Dual derby winner & world leading sire Galileo, dual Group 1 winner & sire Black Sam Bellamy, Group 1 placed pair Melikah & All To Beautiful, Grade 1 winner My Typhoon & LR winning 2yo Born To Sea.

There was great anticipation when Sea The Stars first crop turned two-year-olds. With 117 registered with Weatherby's. These two-year-olds included some regally bred youngsters out of Group 1 winners such as Alpine Rose, Speciousa, Zarkava, Queens Logic, Finsceal Beo, & Vodka. Sea The Stars profile suggested he would not become a major sire of two-year-olds. He himself won two of his three starts at two including at Group 2 level. While many judges expected that he should sire some Group 1 class two-year-olds. His only stakes winner among his first two-year-olds was Group 3 winner My Titania. However he did get some unbeaten eye catching two-year-olds including Rip Roaring, Taghrooda & Sea The Moon. While it was a fair start for his first crop. Some judges had been dissapointed with Sea The Stars first two-year-olds. However better things were to come.

It was revealed that Sea The Stars received his lowest book of mares in 2011 which was his second season at stud receiving 87 mares, however his books increased rapidly in 2012 covering 150 mares and decreasing again in 2013 to 96 mares.

Sea The Stars progeny were always expected to be in demand in the sales ring. His average sales for his first crop of foals in 2011 was €324,085 with a median of €246,305. While he had two mares in foal to him averaging €492,500.

In 2012 his foal average decreased to €197,010 & the median to €230,000 however he only had three foals up for grabs at auction that year. He had five mares sell in foal to him for an average of €367,000 with a median of €480,000. His first yearlings averaged €248,767 with a median of €180,000. His top priced yearling was Edkhan who sold in Arqana for €1.200,000.

In 2013 he had sixteen foals sell at auction for an average of €186,375 & a median of €180,000. He had nine mares sell in foal for an average of €224,000 with a median of €170,000. While his second crop of yearlings stood at twenty-three sold for an average of €185,054 and a median of €116,144, a decrease from his first Yearling sales in 2012. His highest priced yearling in 2013 was Globalist who sold for 460,000gns at Tattersalls.

His first crop of three-year-olds however have brought Sea The Stars to be behind only the exceptional sire Galileo on the European sires of three-year-olds list. He is also the third leading sire in Europe in order of prize money behind only exceptional sires Galileo & Invincible Spirit. He is the sire of NINE individual Stakes Winners including three Group 1 winners. They are dual Group 1 winner Taghrooda, unbeaten German derby winner & Arc favourite Sea The Moon & Prix Alary winner Vazira. While his Group/Listed winners include Zarshana, Anipa, My Titania, Afternoon Sunlight, Sivoliere & All At Sea.

The exceptional year Sea the Stars has had with his first classic crop will insure that he will continue to be well supported from breeders. His early yearling sales this year already look to become some of his best with two yearlings in the top 10 at Arqana at prices of €700,000 & €600,000. He has thirty-five yearlings catalogued in the prestigious Tattersalls Book 1 yearling sale in October, while at Goffs Orby sale he has eight yearlings. The Aga Khan Studs have also announced that due to high demand for Europe's most exciting young stallion Sea The Stars will cover a limited book of mares to Southern Hemisphere time.

Mod edit: Link: http://horsefan1.blogspot.ie/

kfallon

Wasn't Galileo a very average stallion to begin with?

hucklebuck

Are the numbers northern hemisphere covers? It says at the end he will be covering some southern hemisphere.

The price may have gone up too, I thought 85k was a very low starting point for him.

hucklebuck

Are the numbers northern hemisphere covers? It says at the end he will be covering some southern hemisphere.

The price may have gone up too, I thought 85k was a very low starting point for him.

FIVE2_THREE

kfallon wrote: »

Wasn't Galileo a very average stallion to begin with?

I wouldn't say he was average. He started out as a shuttle stallion because the old man was still alive(Sadler's Wells) along with Montjeu,and High Chaparral

FIVE2_THREE

hucklebuck wrote: »

Are the numbers northern hemisphere covers? It says at the end he will be covering some southern hemisphere.

The price may have gone up too, I thought 85k was a very low starting point for him.

2014 is the first time He will cover SH mares

FIVE2_THREE

hucklebuck wrote: »

Are the numbers northern hemisphere covers? It says at the end he will be covering some southern hemisphere.

The price may have gone up too, I thought 85k was a very low starting point for him.

It is interesting that he started out at 85,000 and hasn't moved although Galileos fee is listed privet. many have given his 2014 fee
between 200 and 250€

Cape Cross (IRE) - Urban Sea, by Miswaki
2006, b, 16.2 hands, entered stud 2010.
Stallion Register
Weatherbys
2014 FEE:
85,000
Standing at Gilltown Stud
Co. Kildare, Ire

Nulty

Did you write that or did someone else?

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Maybe it's me but I always thought Sea the stars would be in high demand as a Stallion but the numbers in the article show otherwise. Maybe the daunting presence and influence of Galileo has hurt him or maybe the breeders are not all that impressed by his first foals but to go from covering 150 foals to just 96 is a big drop.


Sea The Stars set pulses racing during the flat season in 2009, becoming World Champion with wins in the 2000G/Epsom Derby & Prix De L'Arc De Triomphe. When it was announced the unbeaten three-year-old would be retired to stud, rumours were circulating that he would be sold to stand in Japan. Thankfully his owners the T'sui's were dedicated to keeping him in Ireland. It was then rumoured that he would stand at The Irish National Stud, where he was foaled and raised & also where his dam the legendary Urban Sea spent until her death in April 2009. It was later announced Sea The Stars would stand at The Aga Khan studs alongside proven Group 1 sires Dalakhani & Azamour. With a fee set at €85,000, 130 mares were booked to the impeccably bred six times Group 1 winner, among them were 90 Group 1 winners/producers.

Sea The Stars was always guaranteed to become a successful stallion. By leading miler Cape Cross, a son of the top class Green Desert. Sea The Stars was out of Arc winner Urban Sea. His half siblings included Dual derby winner & world leading sire Galileo, dual Group 1 winner & sire Black Sam Bellamy, Group 1 placed pair Melikah & All To Beautiful, Grade 1 winner My Typhoon & LR winning 2yo Born To Sea.

There was great anticipation when Sea The Stars first crop turned two-year-olds. With 117 registered with Weatherby's. These two-year-olds included some regally bred youngsters out of Group 1 winners such as Alpine Rose, Speciousa, Zarkava, Queens Logic, Finsceal Beo, & Vodka. Sea The Stars profile suggested he would not become a major sire of two-year-olds. He himself won two of his three starts at two including at Group 2 level. While many judges expected that he should sire some Group 1 class two-year-olds. His only stakes winner among his first two-year-olds was Group 3 winner My Titania. However he did get some unbeaten eye catching two-year-olds including Rip Roaring, Taghrooda & Sea The Moon. While it was a fair start for his first crop. Some judges had been dissapointed with Sea The Stars first two-year-olds. However better things were to come.

It was revealed that Sea The Stars received his lowest book of mares in 2011 which was his second season at stud receiving 87 mares, however his books increased rapidly in 2012 covering 150 mares and decreasing again in 2013 to 96 mares.

Sea The Stars progeny were always expected to be in demand in the sales ring. His average sales for his first crop of foals in 2011 was €324,085 with a median of €246,305. While he had two mares in foal to him averaging €492,500.

In 2012 his foal average decreased to €197,010 & the median to €230,000 however he only had three foals up for grabs at auction that year. He had five mares sell in foal to him for an average of €367,000 with a median of €480,000. His first yearlings averaged €248,767 with a median of €180,000. His top priced yearling was Edkhan who sold in Arqana for €1.200,000.

In 2013 he had sixteen foals sell at auction for an average of €186,375 & a median of €180,000. He had nine mares sell in foal for an average of €224,000 with a median of €170,000. While his second crop of yearlings stood at twenty-three sold for an average of €185,054 and a median of €116,144, a decrease from his first Yearling sales in 2012. His highest priced yearling in 2013 was Globalist who sold for 460,000gns at Tattersalls.

His first crop of three-year-olds however have brought Sea The Stars to be behind only the exceptional sire Galileo on the European sires of three-year-olds list. He is also the third leading sire in Europe in order of prize money behind only exceptional sires Galileo & Invincible Spirit. He is the sire of NINE individual Stakes Winners including three Group 1 winners. They are dual Group 1 winner Taghrooda, unbeaten German derby winner & Arc favourite Sea The Moon & Prix Alary winner Vazira. While his Group/Listed winners include Zarshana, Anipa, My Titania, Afternoon Sunlight, Sivoliere & All At Sea.

The exceptional year Sea the Stars has had with his first classic crop will insure that he will continue to be well supported from breeders. His early yearling sales this year already look to become some of his best with two yearlings in the top 10 at Arqana at prices of €700,000 & €600,000. He has thirty-five yearlings catalogued in the prestigious Tattersalls Book 1 yearling sale in October, while at Goffs Orby sale he has eight yearlings. The Aga Khan Studs have also announced that due to high demand for Europe's most exciting young stallion Sea The Stars will cover a limited book of mares to Southern Hemisphere time.

FIVE2_THREE

Nulty wrote: »

Did you write that or did someone else?

Is there an issue with it ?

Gregk961

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Is there an issue with it ?

No harm to mention the source i suppose?

Huntthe

I would say he has done well enough given the mares he got. I also think the owners of those fancy mares will be considering Galileo, Dansili, invincible spirit and oasis dream as strongly as they will consider him come the spring.No guarantees in that game no matter how good a race horse .

FIVE2_THREE

Gregk961 wrote: »

No harm to mention the source i suppose?

Google.ie

h2005

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Google.ie

It's proper etiquette to cite or link the source.

FIVE2_THREE

h2005 wrote: »

It's proper etiquette to cite or link the source.

Thank you for telling me. now I know.

Peintre Celebre

hucklebuck wrote: »

Are the numbers northern hemisphere covers? It says at the end he will be covering some southern hemisphere.

The price may have gone up too, I thought 85k was a very low starting point for him.

85k not very low it's just that others were so high, bearing in mind Sea the Stars went to stud at a time all fees were decreasing he went to stud at about twice as much as any new stallion in recent years. Frankel at 115KGBP is astronomical. Think in comparison what the highest fee has been for first season sires (in Europe) last number of years. Off the top of my head the likes of Manduro at 40k euro, New Approach 30KGBP, Teofilo 40K, Raven's Pass 40k. even the proven top class sire Redoute's Choice stood his first season in Europe at a 25k cheaper fee who is by Danehill.

Trust me 85k was not a very low starting point. Still represented a big chance being taken by many breeders. We all know that race track performance doesn't mean you will make it as a sire and the same can be said for pedigree. Sure if that was the case Black Sam Bellamy would be challenging Galileo

Dubron

Nulty wrote: »

Did you write that or did someone else?

Almost positive it was written by a young woman called Michelle Kinane, she's well worth a follow on Twitter for anyone interested in the breeding side of things.

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

85k not very low it's just that others were so high, bearing in mind Sea the Stars went to stud at a time all fees were decreasing he went to stud at about twice as much as any new stallion in recent years. Frankel at 115KGBP is astronomical. Think in comparison what the highest fee has been for first season sires (in Europe) last number of years. Off the top of my head the likes of Manduro at 40k euro, New Approach 30KGBP, Teofilo 40K, Raven's Pass 40k. even the proven top class sire Redoute's Choice stood his first season in Europe at a 25k cheaper fee who is by Danehill.

Trust me 85k was not a very low starting point. Still represented a big chance being taken by many breeders. We all know that race track performance doesn't mean you will make it as a sire and the same can be said for pedigree. Sure if that was the case Black Sam Bellamy would be challenging Galileo

I have to disagree a bit. Frankles fee is spot on as he marks all the boxes needed.
1- Outstanding race record
2- By A sire of sires
3- From a remarkable family

also we mustn't forget that Juddmonte won't spread him thin. each season he will only cover 100 to 120 mares. and the people who will send mares to him are not poor people looking to breed a good horse. the people who will send mares to him are the who's who of the turf racing world with blue blooded mares.

Peintre Celebre

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

I have to disagree a bit. Frankles fee is spot on as he marks all the boxes needed.
1- Outstanding race record
2- By A sire of sires
3- From a remarkable family

also we mustn't forget that Juddmonte won't spread him thin. each season he will only cover 100 to 120 mares. and the people who will send mares to him are not poor people looking to breed a good horse. the people who will send mares to him are the who's who of the turf racing world with blue blooded mares.

You think a fee of 115kGBP for an unproven first season sire is spot on? Much more than Dansili or Oasis Dream, about the same as the proven outstanding Derby sire Montjeu (at his peak fee)

Gregk961

Dubron wrote: »

Almost positive it was written by a young woman called Michelle Kinane, she's well worth a follow on Twitter for anyone interested in the breeding side of things.

I knew i recognised it. Here is the original

http://horsefan1.blogspot.ie/2014/09/sea-stars-stallion-career.html?m=1

Andalucia

should be a bit of an increase in his fee for 2015 given how well the 3 year olds have performed, with a chance for some more races to add to the roll of honour just yet

Breeding at the top level is quite reasoned, breeders tend to go with lines and crosses that have worked well in the past, hence the reason its so difficult for the freshman sires to make it.

Granted the pool of Group 1 performers/producers he has covered meant he was destined to produce a few gems, but there is always a risk it won't work out

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

You think a fee of 115kGBP for an unproven first season sire is spot on? Much more than Dansili or Oasis Dream, about the same as the proven outstanding Derby sire Montjeu (at his peak fee)

Horse breeding is a gamble. just as with any commodity something is only worth what people are willing to pay. Coolmore once spent 16 million on a horse in the states. unraced and unproven. if any horse from Frankel's first crop go on to be Superstars 115 GBP will be a drop in the bucket compared to what his stallion fee will rise to.

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

You think a fee of 115kGBP for an unproven first season sire is spot on? Much more than Dansili or Oasis Dream, about the same as the proven outstanding Derby sire Montjeu (at his peak fee)

Horse breeding is a gamble. just as with any commodity something is only worth what people are willing to pay. Coolmore once spent 16 million on a horse in the states. unraced and unproven. if any horses from Frankel's first crop go on to be Superstars 115 GBP will be a drop in the bucket compared to what his stallion fee will rise to.

Peintre Celebre

That is true but there are better bred horses than Frankel that have gone to stud and flopped. Frankel will have every chance but it is a very expensive gamble


And I didn't realise it's 125GBP not 115. Nearly twice the price of Sea the Stars

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

That is true but there are better bred horses than Frankel that have gone to stud and flopped. Frankel will have every chance but it is a very expensive gamble


And I didn't realise it's 125GBP not 115. Nearly twice the price of Sea the Stars

Yes very expensive to the common working man or small time breeders. BUT not expensive to the Saudis, Qutaris, Coolmore and top Asian racing teams who will breed to him.

tryfix

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

85k not very low it's just that others were so high, bearing in mind Sea the Stars went to stud at a time all fees were decreasing he went to stud at about twice as much as any new stallion in recent years. Frankel at 115KGBP is astronomical. Think in comparison what the highest fee has been for first season sires (in Europe) last number of years. Off the top of my head the likes of Manduro at 40k euro, New Approach 30KGBP, Teofilo 40K, Raven's Pass 40k. even the proven top class sire Redoute's Choice stood his first season in Europe at a 25k cheaper fee who is by Danehill.

Trust me 85k was not a very low starting point. Still represented a big chance being taken by many breeders. We all know that race track performance doesn't mean you will make it as a sire and the same can be said for pedigree. Sure if that was the case Black Sam Bellamy would be challenging Galileo

It was a fair enough initial price for a covering that would be very likely to make a nice return in the sales ring where the Sea The Stars legend and Sea The Stars own fine confirmation were always likely to produce stock that would sell very well. Wouldn't have been wild about chancing him at that price after his first crop had been exposed to the racetrack. He's a successful stallion for now, but there's not a lot of depth to his stock so far outside of his two stars.

New Approach who's now dearer than him made a similar start to him and his stock are more precocious but he's not having a great second crop which seems to happen to a lot of horses.

Sea The Stars looks to be a source for a few top 3yos every so often but he doesn't look like a rival to Galileo in the long term. A bit like an In The Wings or Singspiel.

kfallon

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

I wouldn't say he was average. He started out as a shuttle stallion because the old man was still alive(Sadler's Wells) along with Montjeu,and High Chaparral

His fee dropped from €60,000 in 2003 to €37,500 in 2005....hardly a sign of a successful stud career or in fact a sign of things to come!

Peintre Celebre

kfallon wrote: »

His fee dropped from €60,000 in 2003 to €37,500 in 2005....hardly a sign of a successful stud career or in fact a sign of things to come!

You do realise he had zero runners by that stage, it's not uncommon for stallions fees' to drop from their first year at stud until they have runners. Sure Mastercraftsman fell to a low of 10k despite some decent sales. Galileo sired a classic winner in his first crop. The rest is history though I doubt even the most optimistic would have thought he'd dominate quite like he is

FIVE2_THREE

kfallon wrote: »

His fee dropped from €60,000 in 2003 to €37,500 in 2005....hardly a sign of a successful stud career or in fact a sign of things to come!

God bless those who got in for 60 and 37,500 because now it's 250k

salfordseven

See da stars was an equine superstar. Shame I only won money on her once.
My next fav horse after Nortons Coin .

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

I have to disagree a bit. Frankles fee is spot on as he marks all the boxes needed.
1- Outstanding race record
2- By A sire of sires
3- From a remarkable family

He looks very expensive compared to STS, particularly now that STS is a proven sire

hucklebuck

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

85k not very low it's just that others were so high, bearing in mind Sea the Stars went to stud at a time all fees were decreasing he went to stud at about twice as much as any new stallion in recent years. Frankel at 115KGBP is astronomical. Think in comparison what the highest fee has been for first season sires (in Europe) last number of years. Off the top of my head the likes of Manduro at 40k euro, New Approach 30KGBP, Teofilo 40K, Raven's Pass 40k. even the proven top class sire Redoute's Choice stood his first season in Europe at a 25k cheaper fee who is by Danehill.

Trust me 85k was not a very low starting point. Still represented a big chance being taken by many breeders. We all know that race track performance doesn't mean you will make it as a sire and the same can be said for pedigree. Sure if that was the case Black Sam Bellamy would be challenging Galileo

Exactly my point before STS progeny hit the track Frankel is standing for almost double the price of the stoutly bred champion half brother to Galileo.

Invincible Spirit is an established stallion standing around 75k off memory, even in STS first year I would think more of the rich people involved in racing would see that as a chance worth taking.

Peintre Celebre

hucklebuck wrote: »

Exactly my point before STS progeny hit the track Frankel is standing for almost double the price of the stoutly bred champion half brother to Galileo.

Invincible Spirit is an established stallion standing around 75k off memory, even in STS first year I would think more of the rich people involved in racing would see that as a chance worth taking.

But Sea the Stars' fee could not have increased this season given how little they did at two and I'd be surprised if they increased him much this year unless one of his bolts up in the Arc


Invincible Spirit is a top class sire. A classic sire unlike even Dansili Oasis Dream or Pivotal. IS and STS aren't really comparable though you will get a totally different foal

hucklebuck

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

But Sea the Stars' fee could not have increased this season given how little they did at two and I'd be surprised if they increased him much this year unless one of his bolts up in the Arc


Invincible Spirit is a top class sire. A classic sire unlike even Dansili Oasis Dream or Pivotal. IS and STS aren't really comparable though you will get a totally different foal

I wasn't saying it should have increased I was surprised at the price it started at.

It wouldn't have increased after the two year olds but I would be surprised if the price doesn't go up this year, some very good performances and I nailed my colours to Sea The Moon a while back and he is in to 4/1 and I think he will dot up in the Arc which will give STS progeny some winnings total for the year.

tryfix

hucklebuck wrote: »

Exactly my point before STS progeny hit the track Frankel is standing for almost double the price of the stoutly bred champion half brother to Galileo.

Invincible Spirit is an established stallion standing around 75k off memory, even in STS first year I would think more of the rich people involved in racing would see that as a chance worth taking.

People don't want stoutly bred flat stallions, and Sea The Stars isn't actually stoutly bred, his successes as a stallion mostly coming from injecting the speed from the Cape Cross element of his pedigree into dour staying lines as in the case of Taghrooda and Sea The Moon. He's an ideal sire for the likes of Estimate the Ascot Gold Cup winner.

I also think he needs a crack at some mares with plenty of precocious speed in them, cheap speed even but he's priced out of that range, then you might get some decent 2yos and miler types out of him.

hucklebuck

tryfix wrote: »

People don't want stoutly bred flat stallions, and Sea The Stars isn't actually stoutly bred, his successes as a stallion mostly coming from injecting the speed from the Cape Cross element of his pedigree into dour staying lines as in the case of Taghrooda and Sea The Moon. He's an ideal sire for the likes of Estimate the Ascot Gold Cup winner.

I also think he needs a crack at some mares with plenty of precocious speed in them, cheap speed even but he's priced out of that range, then you might get some decent 2yos and miler types out of him.

If you have 85k to spend on a cover then chances are you have a decent horse to send to him and surely the most desirable races are the Derby and Arc.

Sure the dam and her sire are very strong influences but we are looking at arguable the greatest horse of all times out of the greatest broomare of all times.

Has Zarkavas 2 year old run yet?

cack_handed

hucklebuck wrote: »

Has Zarkavas 2 year old run yet?

Zarkash? Nearly the end of his three year old season and still no sign of an appearance...got to be something wrong there i'd venture

Panrich

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

But Sea the Stars' fee could not have increased this season given how little they did at two and I'd be surprised if they increased him much this year unless one of his bolts up in the Arc


Invincible Spirit is a top class sire. A classic sire unlike even Dansili Oasis Dream or Pivotal. IS and STS aren't really comparable though you will get a totally different foal

You're right there and it is a very different pool of breeders that will use the likes of STS. With sires like Invincible Spirit you can hope to get a very good horse. Based on his first crop, with STS you can hope for a champion.

Nulty

Dubron wrote: »

Almost positive it was written by a young woman called Michelle Kinane, she's well worth a follow on Twitter for anyone interested in the breeding side of things.

Yeah, I read it a few days ago.

Peintre Celebre

hucklebuck wrote: »

If you have 85k to spend on a cover then chances are you have a decent horse to send to him and surely the most desirable races are the Derby and Arc.

Sure the dam and her sire are very strong influences but we are looking at arguable the greatest horse of all times out of the greatest broomare of all times.

Has Zarkavas 2 year old run yet?

As tryfix said regarding stoutly bred stallions, speed means more to breeders. That's why O'Brien says just how much speed Camelot, Australia, Dylan Thomas, Cape Blanco have etc

tryfix

hucklebuck wrote: »

If you have 85k to spend on a cover then chances are you have a decent horse to send to him and surely the most desirable races are the Derby and Arc.

Sure the dam and her sire are very strong influences but we are looking at arguable the greatest horse of all times out of the greatest broomare of all times.

Has Zarkavas 2 year old run yet?

That's a good point, the big money stallions produce Derby winners and Classic winners, but look at Montjeu the greatest Derby winner producing machine probably ever. He never reached the stallion fees of Sadler's Wells, Danehill and Galileo because he didn't produce the conveyor belt of 1 mile classic prospects and Dewhurst/National Stakes types that the others did. That's where the money is in producing breeding stock that can do more across the spectrum at the highest level than just stay well. Just look at how little enthusiasm there is for great recent 12f horses like Derby-Arc double winning Workforce and Sinndar.

Zarkava's Sea The Star's colt hasn't run yet, but there's a Sea The Stars half sister to Zarkava herself called Zarshana who is bred very similarly to Zarkava ( being by Sea The Stars DI 3.00 compared to Zarkava's sire Zamindar DI 3.67 ) and she's starting to motor along nicely winning a GP 3 over 13f on her latest start.

FIVE2_THREE

I think all the rumblings over Frankels' stud fee are greatly embellished. More than anything stallion fees are often set on precedence. despite the calls of Sea the stars being a horse of a life time he really isn't. for most of us we've seen horses like him in the not so recent past. Lammtara and Dancing Brave and Njinsky II spring to mind.Fast peaking 3 year olds whose talent would have obviously declined at 4.

Lammtara went to stud at 3 with a sire fee of £30,000 in 1995.
£30,000 today is equivalent to £43,748, an offley high sire fee for a horse who only won 4 races, No ?

Dancing Brave was sent to stud at a fee of £120,000 in 1986.
£120,000 today is £ 258,961.

So while Sea The Stars is modestly priced at 85,000 compared to Frankels £125,000. Frankel's fee reflects not just his record as a horse or his pedigree but most importantly it is unprecedented that a horse of his caliber has gone to stud.

Ribot was syndicated By Lord Derby in 1959 for $1.35 million to Derby Dan Farm in the U.S.
if that deal were to take place today it would be worth $11,052,835.05/£ 6,770,662.10

Nijinsky II was syndicated for $5,440,000 in 1970 to Claiborne Farm in the U.S.
Today that deal would be worth $33,404,123.71/ £20,461,317.39

Lastly, The Minstrel was purchased for $200,000 in 1975($885,687.73 in today's money) and sold back to his Breeder EP Taylor for $9,000,000 ($35,383,663.37/£21,673,861.98 in Today's Money)

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

That's a good point, the big money stallions produce Derby winners and Classic winners, but look at Montjeu the greatest Derby winner producing machine probably ever. He never reached the stallion fees of Sadler's Wells, Danehill and Galileo because he didn't produce the conveyor belt of 1 mile classic prospects and Dewhurst/National Stakes types that the others did. That's where the money is in producing breeding stock that can do more across the spectrum at the highest level than just stay well. Just look at how little enthusiasm there is for great recent 12f horses like Derby-Arc double winning Workforce and Sinndar.

Zarkava's Sea The Star's colt hasn't run yet, but there's a Sea The Stars half sister to Zarkava herself called Zarshana who is bred very similarly to Zarkava ( being by Sea The Stars DI 3.00 compared to Zarkava's sire Zamindar DI 3.67 ) and she's starting to motor along nicely winning a GP 3 over 13f on her latest start.

Montjeu's stud fee was as high as 125,000 euro in 2008 and his last published price was 75,000 euro in 2011.

His fee for this term was listed as private.
http://sportinglife.aol.co.uk/horse-racing/news/article/22888/7634843/montjeu-dies-aged-16

tryfix

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

I think all the rumblings over Frankels' stud fee are greatly embellished. More than anything stallion fees are often set on precedence. despite the calls of Sea the stars being a horse of a life time he really isn't. for most of us we've seen horses like him in the not so recent past. Lammtara and Dancing Brave and Njinsky II spring to mind.Fast peaking 3 year olds whose talent would have obviously declined at 4.

Lammtara went to stud at 3 with a sire fee of £30,000 in 1995.
£30,000 today is equivalent to £43,748, an offley high sire fee for a horse who only won 4 races, No ?

Dancing Brave was sent to stud at a fee of £120,000 in 1986.
£120,000 today is £ 258,961.

So while Sea The Stars is modestly priced at 85,000 compared to Frankels £125,000. Frankel's fee reflects not just his record as a horse or his pedigree but most importantly it is unprecedented that a horse of his caliber has gone to stud.

Ribot was syndicated By Lord Derby in 1959 for $1.35 million to Derby Dan Farm in the U.S.
if that deal were to take place today it would be worth $11,052,835.05/£ 6,770,662.10

Nijinsky II was syndicated for $5,440,000 in 1970 to Claiborne Farm in the U.S.
Today that deal would be worth $33,404,123.71/ £20,461,317.39

Lastly, The Minstrel was purchased for $200,000 in 1975($885,687.73 in today's money) and sold back to his Breeder EP Taylor for $9,000,000 ($35,383,663.37/£21,673,861.98 in Today's Money)

Ah here, Lammtara fine horse that he was wasn't in the same league as the Likes of Sea The Stars, Dancing Brave, Nijinsky or Frankel, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef etc. To claim the cosseted Frankel tops the others in terms of caliber is buying into the hype. By that reckoning Hawk Wing is a god.

Dancing Brave was the best of them ( faster furlongs over 12f than any of them achieved at any distance ) but he was the worst bred of them. He still commanded a huge fee because he had versatility and super star quality. The portents for his stud career were never going to be good, just like Shergar's he wasn't well enough bred to be a champion stallion.

Nijinsky was by the greatest stallion and had it all, he achieved way more in terms of exceptionalism than Frankel in his time racing, going from Champion 2yo to the Triple Crown and more of Guineas, Derby, King George, St Leger and 2nd in the Arc after an illness, compared to the cosseted 3yo Frankel he had proven himself beyond all doubt and he proved himself to be top quality in the breeding shed.

Frankel and Sea The Stars are both superstars in the mold of former champions, what they also bring to the table are their pedigrees by blue hen mares and with pedigrees laced with champion stallions.

Cape Cross brings Sea The Stars down but Urban Sea brings him up as a stallion prospect which is why hype and all he doesn't command such a high fee compared to Frankel.

Frankel's miler speed overcomes the limitations of his untested immediate family stallion pedigree, but he's got the all conquering Galileo /Danehill sires of sires cross going for him. His fee reflects the saleability of his produce and demand for his services as everyone wants a bit of the superstar, rather than the actual potential of his stock.

Personally. I think Frankel will make it as a stallion, but he will be a much greater stamina influence than his racing career would imply.

tryfix

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Montjeu's stud fee was as high as 125,000 euro in 2008 and his last published price was 75,000 euro in 2011.

His fee for this term was listed as private.
http://sportinglife.aol.co.uk/horse-racing/news/article/22888/7634843/montjeu-dies-aged-16

Yes, but compared to Danehill, Sadler's Wells and Galileo his fee didn't reflect the quantity of GP1 winners he was capable of consistently producing.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

Ah here, Lammtara fine horse that he was wasn't in the same league as the Likes of Sea The Stars, Dancing Brave, Nijinsky or Frankel, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef etc. To claim the cosseted Frankel tops the others in terms of caliber is buying into the hype. By that reckoning Hawk Wing is a god.

Dancing Brave was the best of them ( faster furlongs over 12f than any of them achieved at any distance ) but he was the worst bred of them. He still commanded a huge fee because he had versatility and super star quality. The portents for his stud career were never going to be good, just like Shergar's he wasn't well enough bred to be a champion stallion.

Nijinsky was by the greatest stallion and had it all, he achieved way more in terms of exceptionalism than Frankel in his time racing, going from Champion 2yo to the Triple Crown and more of Guineas, Derby, King George, St Leger and 2nd in the Arc after an illness, compared to the cosseted 3yo Frankel he had proven himself beyond all doubt and he proved himself to be top quality in the breeding shed.

Frankel and Sea The Stars are both superstars in the mold of former champions, what they also bring to the table are their pedigrees by blue hen mares and with pedigrees laced with champion stallions.

Cape Cross brings Sea The Stars down but Urban Sea brings him up as a stallion prospect which is why hype and all he doesn't command such a high fee compared to Frankel.

Frankel's miler speed overcomes the limitations of his untested immediate family stallion pedigree, but he's got the all conquering Galileo /Danehill sires of sires cross going for him. His fee reflects the saleability of his produce and demand for his services as everyone wants a bit of the superstar, rather than the actual potential of his stock.

Personally. I think Frankel will make it as a stallion, but he will be a much greater stamina influence than his racing career would imply.

The horses Frankel defeated account for a combine total of 56 Group one Victories. Hawkwing doesn't come close to that. Dancing Brave for some reason flopped at stud and that was with the backing of Khalid's broodmare band who has been the largest since the late 80's and is numbered at 300 today.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

Yes, but compared to Danehill, Sadler's Wells and Galileo his fee didn't reflect the quantity of GP1 winners he was capable of consistently producing.

That's hard to say. His fee was set at privet his last year at stud.
that privet number could have been 200, 250, 280 who knows ? it was never going to be sadlers Wells who stood at 280k in his prime

Peintre Celebre

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

That's hard to say. His fee was set at privet his last year at stud.
that privet number could have been 200, 250, 280 who knows ? it was never going to be sadlers Wells who stood at 280k in his prime

150k

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

150k

150K for sadlers wells ? in his prime?

Peintre Celebre

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

150K for sadlers wells ? in his prime?

Montjeu the year his fee was private. This is according to workers at Coolmore

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Montjeu the year his fee was private. This is according to workers at Coolmore

Ok I'll take your word but this article says different. they give the Privet tag from 250k to 500k (Eurors)
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/super-stallion-to-push-stud-fees-at-coolmore-past-160m-26329187.html

I know for a fact the Coolmore had Sadlers Wells at the 280k mark because it was around the same time that they got a life time breeding and 10% of Storm Cat in the U.S. who stood at $500,000. At one time the held Ownership of the two highest priced Stallions in the world.

Peintre Celebre

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Ok I'll take your word but this article says different. they give the Privet tag from 250k to 500k (Eurors)
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/super-stallion-to-push-stud-fees-at-coolmore-past-160m-26329187.html

I know for a fact the Coolmore had Sadlers Wells at the 280k mark because it was around the same time that they got a life time breeding and 10% of Storm Cat in the U.S. who stood at $500,000. At one time the held Ownership of the two highest priced Stallions in the world.

That is an outdated article. Bearing in mind Fastnet Rock was private when he came to Ireland his fee was only 50k.

You can probably throw Kingmambo in there too didnt they have a share in him? 300KUSD he stood at his height (I think)