Sea the Stars

Peintre Celebre

hucklebuck wrote: »

Exactly my point before STS progeny hit the track Frankel is standing for almost double the price of the stoutly bred champion half brother to Galileo.

Invincible Spirit is an established stallion standing around 75k off memory, even in STS first year I would think more of the rich people involved in racing would see that as a chance worth taking.

But Sea the Stars' fee could not have increased this season given how little they did at two and I'd be surprised if they increased him much this year unless one of his bolts up in the Arc


Invincible Spirit is a top class sire. A classic sire unlike even Dansili Oasis Dream or Pivotal. IS and STS aren't really comparable though you will get a totally different foal

hucklebuck

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

But Sea the Stars' fee could not have increased this season given how little they did at two and I'd be surprised if they increased him much this year unless one of his bolts up in the Arc


Invincible Spirit is a top class sire. A classic sire unlike even Dansili Oasis Dream or Pivotal. IS and STS aren't really comparable though you will get a totally different foal

I wasn't saying it should have increased I was surprised at the price it started at.

It wouldn't have increased after the two year olds but I would be surprised if the price doesn't go up this year, some very good performances and I nailed my colours to Sea The Moon a while back and he is in to 4/1 and I think he will dot up in the Arc which will give STS progeny some winnings total for the year.

tryfix

hucklebuck wrote: »

Exactly my point before STS progeny hit the track Frankel is standing for almost double the price of the stoutly bred champion half brother to Galileo.

Invincible Spirit is an established stallion standing around 75k off memory, even in STS first year I would think more of the rich people involved in racing would see that as a chance worth taking.

People don't want stoutly bred flat stallions, and Sea The Stars isn't actually stoutly bred, his successes as a stallion mostly coming from injecting the speed from the Cape Cross element of his pedigree into dour staying lines as in the case of Taghrooda and Sea The Moon. He's an ideal sire for the likes of Estimate the Ascot Gold Cup winner.

I also think he needs a crack at some mares with plenty of precocious speed in them, cheap speed even but he's priced out of that range, then you might get some decent 2yos and miler types out of him.

hucklebuck

tryfix wrote: »

People don't want stoutly bred flat stallions, and Sea The Stars isn't actually stoutly bred, his successes as a stallion mostly coming from injecting the speed from the Cape Cross element of his pedigree into dour staying lines as in the case of Taghrooda and Sea The Moon. He's an ideal sire for the likes of Estimate the Ascot Gold Cup winner.

I also think he needs a crack at some mares with plenty of precocious speed in them, cheap speed even but he's priced out of that range, then you might get some decent 2yos and miler types out of him.

If you have 85k to spend on a cover then chances are you have a decent horse to send to him and surely the most desirable races are the Derby and Arc.

Sure the dam and her sire are very strong influences but we are looking at arguable the greatest horse of all times out of the greatest broomare of all times.

Has Zarkavas 2 year old run yet?

cack_handed

hucklebuck wrote: »

Has Zarkavas 2 year old run yet?

Zarkash? Nearly the end of his three year old season and still no sign of an appearance...got to be something wrong there i'd venture

Panrich

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

But Sea the Stars' fee could not have increased this season given how little they did at two and I'd be surprised if they increased him much this year unless one of his bolts up in the Arc


Invincible Spirit is a top class sire. A classic sire unlike even Dansili Oasis Dream or Pivotal. IS and STS aren't really comparable though you will get a totally different foal

You're right there and it is a very different pool of breeders that will use the likes of STS. With sires like Invincible Spirit you can hope to get a very good horse. Based on his first crop, with STS you can hope for a champion.

Nulty

Dubron wrote: »

Almost positive it was written by a young woman called Michelle Kinane, she's well worth a follow on Twitter for anyone interested in the breeding side of things.

Yeah, I read it a few days ago.

Peintre Celebre

hucklebuck wrote: »

If you have 85k to spend on a cover then chances are you have a decent horse to send to him and surely the most desirable races are the Derby and Arc.

Sure the dam and her sire are very strong influences but we are looking at arguable the greatest horse of all times out of the greatest broomare of all times.

Has Zarkavas 2 year old run yet?

As tryfix said regarding stoutly bred stallions, speed means more to breeders. That's why O'Brien says just how much speed Camelot, Australia, Dylan Thomas, Cape Blanco have etc

tryfix

hucklebuck wrote: »

If you have 85k to spend on a cover then chances are you have a decent horse to send to him and surely the most desirable races are the Derby and Arc.

Sure the dam and her sire are very strong influences but we are looking at arguable the greatest horse of all times out of the greatest broomare of all times.

Has Zarkavas 2 year old run yet?

That's a good point, the big money stallions produce Derby winners and Classic winners, but look at Montjeu the greatest Derby winner producing machine probably ever. He never reached the stallion fees of Sadler's Wells, Danehill and Galileo because he didn't produce the conveyor belt of 1 mile classic prospects and Dewhurst/National Stakes types that the others did. That's where the money is in producing breeding stock that can do more across the spectrum at the highest level than just stay well. Just look at how little enthusiasm there is for great recent 12f horses like Derby-Arc double winning Workforce and Sinndar.

Zarkava's Sea The Star's colt hasn't run yet, but there's a Sea The Stars half sister to Zarkava herself called Zarshana who is bred very similarly to Zarkava ( being by Sea The Stars DI 3.00 compared to Zarkava's sire Zamindar DI 3.67 ) and she's starting to motor along nicely winning a GP 3 over 13f on her latest start.

FIVE2_THREE

I think all the rumblings over Frankels' stud fee are greatly embellished. More than anything stallion fees are often set on precedence. despite the calls of Sea the stars being a horse of a life time he really isn't. for most of us we've seen horses like him in the not so recent past. Lammtara and Dancing Brave and Njinsky II spring to mind.Fast peaking 3 year olds whose talent would have obviously declined at 4.

Lammtara went to stud at 3 with a sire fee of £30,000 in 1995.
£30,000 today is equivalent to £43,748, an offley high sire fee for a horse who only won 4 races, No ?

Dancing Brave was sent to stud at a fee of £120,000 in 1986.
£120,000 today is £ 258,961.

So while Sea The Stars is modestly priced at 85,000 compared to Frankels £125,000. Frankel's fee reflects not just his record as a horse or his pedigree but most importantly it is unprecedented that a horse of his caliber has gone to stud.

Ribot was syndicated By Lord Derby in 1959 for $1.35 million to Derby Dan Farm in the U.S.
if that deal were to take place today it would be worth $11,052,835.05/£ 6,770,662.10

Nijinsky II was syndicated for $5,440,000 in 1970 to Claiborne Farm in the U.S.
Today that deal would be worth $33,404,123.71/ £20,461,317.39

Lastly, The Minstrel was purchased for $200,000 in 1975($885,687.73 in today's money) and sold back to his Breeder EP Taylor for $9,000,000 ($35,383,663.37/£21,673,861.98 in Today's Money)

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

That's a good point, the big money stallions produce Derby winners and Classic winners, but look at Montjeu the greatest Derby winner producing machine probably ever. He never reached the stallion fees of Sadler's Wells, Danehill and Galileo because he didn't produce the conveyor belt of 1 mile classic prospects and Dewhurst/National Stakes types that the others did. That's where the money is in producing breeding stock that can do more across the spectrum at the highest level than just stay well. Just look at how little enthusiasm there is for great recent 12f horses like Derby-Arc double winning Workforce and Sinndar.

Zarkava's Sea The Star's colt hasn't run yet, but there's a Sea The Stars half sister to Zarkava herself called Zarshana who is bred very similarly to Zarkava ( being by Sea The Stars DI 3.00 compared to Zarkava's sire Zamindar DI 3.67 ) and she's starting to motor along nicely winning a GP 3 over 13f on her latest start.

Montjeu's stud fee was as high as 125,000 euro in 2008 and his last published price was 75,000 euro in 2011.

His fee for this term was listed as private.
http://sportinglife.aol.co.uk/horse-racing/news/article/22888/7634843/montjeu-dies-aged-16

tryfix

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

I think all the rumblings over Frankels' stud fee are greatly embellished. More than anything stallion fees are often set on precedence. despite the calls of Sea the stars being a horse of a life time he really isn't. for most of us we've seen horses like him in the not so recent past. Lammtara and Dancing Brave and Njinsky II spring to mind.Fast peaking 3 year olds whose talent would have obviously declined at 4.

Lammtara went to stud at 3 with a sire fee of £30,000 in 1995.
£30,000 today is equivalent to £43,748, an offley high sire fee for a horse who only won 4 races, No ?

Dancing Brave was sent to stud at a fee of £120,000 in 1986.
£120,000 today is £ 258,961.

So while Sea The Stars is modestly priced at 85,000 compared to Frankels £125,000. Frankel's fee reflects not just his record as a horse or his pedigree but most importantly it is unprecedented that a horse of his caliber has gone to stud.

Ribot was syndicated By Lord Derby in 1959 for $1.35 million to Derby Dan Farm in the U.S.
if that deal were to take place today it would be worth $11,052,835.05/£ 6,770,662.10

Nijinsky II was syndicated for $5,440,000 in 1970 to Claiborne Farm in the U.S.
Today that deal would be worth $33,404,123.71/ £20,461,317.39

Lastly, The Minstrel was purchased for $200,000 in 1975($885,687.73 in today's money) and sold back to his Breeder EP Taylor for $9,000,000 ($35,383,663.37/£21,673,861.98 in Today's Money)

Ah here, Lammtara fine horse that he was wasn't in the same league as the Likes of Sea The Stars, Dancing Brave, Nijinsky or Frankel, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef etc. To claim the cosseted Frankel tops the others in terms of caliber is buying into the hype. By that reckoning Hawk Wing is a god.

Dancing Brave was the best of them ( faster furlongs over 12f than any of them achieved at any distance ) but he was the worst bred of them. He still commanded a huge fee because he had versatility and super star quality. The portents for his stud career were never going to be good, just like Shergar's he wasn't well enough bred to be a champion stallion.

Nijinsky was by the greatest stallion and had it all, he achieved way more in terms of exceptionalism than Frankel in his time racing, going from Champion 2yo to the Triple Crown and more of Guineas, Derby, King George, St Leger and 2nd in the Arc after an illness, compared to the cosseted 3yo Frankel he had proven himself beyond all doubt and he proved himself to be top quality in the breeding shed.

Frankel and Sea The Stars are both superstars in the mold of former champions, what they also bring to the table are their pedigrees by blue hen mares and with pedigrees laced with champion stallions.

Cape Cross brings Sea The Stars down but Urban Sea brings him up as a stallion prospect which is why hype and all he doesn't command such a high fee compared to Frankel.

Frankel's miler speed overcomes the limitations of his untested immediate family stallion pedigree, but he's got the all conquering Galileo /Danehill sires of sires cross going for him. His fee reflects the saleability of his produce and demand for his services as everyone wants a bit of the superstar, rather than the actual potential of his stock.

Personally. I think Frankel will make it as a stallion, but he will be a much greater stamina influence than his racing career would imply.

tryfix

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Montjeu's stud fee was as high as 125,000 euro in 2008 and his last published price was 75,000 euro in 2011.

His fee for this term was listed as private.
http://sportinglife.aol.co.uk/horse-racing/news/article/22888/7634843/montjeu-dies-aged-16

Yes, but compared to Danehill, Sadler's Wells and Galileo his fee didn't reflect the quantity of GP1 winners he was capable of consistently producing.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

Ah here, Lammtara fine horse that he was wasn't in the same league as the Likes of Sea The Stars, Dancing Brave, Nijinsky or Frankel, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef etc. To claim the cosseted Frankel tops the others in terms of caliber is buying into the hype. By that reckoning Hawk Wing is a god.

Dancing Brave was the best of them ( faster furlongs over 12f than any of them achieved at any distance ) but he was the worst bred of them. He still commanded a huge fee because he had versatility and super star quality. The portents for his stud career were never going to be good, just like Shergar's he wasn't well enough bred to be a champion stallion.

Nijinsky was by the greatest stallion and had it all, he achieved way more in terms of exceptionalism than Frankel in his time racing, going from Champion 2yo to the Triple Crown and more of Guineas, Derby, King George, St Leger and 2nd in the Arc after an illness, compared to the cosseted 3yo Frankel he had proven himself beyond all doubt and he proved himself to be top quality in the breeding shed.

Frankel and Sea The Stars are both superstars in the mold of former champions, what they also bring to the table are their pedigrees by blue hen mares and with pedigrees laced with champion stallions.

Cape Cross brings Sea The Stars down but Urban Sea brings him up as a stallion prospect which is why hype and all he doesn't command such a high fee compared to Frankel.

Frankel's miler speed overcomes the limitations of his untested immediate family stallion pedigree, but he's got the all conquering Galileo /Danehill sires of sires cross going for him. His fee reflects the saleability of his produce and demand for his services as everyone wants a bit of the superstar, rather than the actual potential of his stock.

Personally. I think Frankel will make it as a stallion, but he will be a much greater stamina influence than his racing career would imply.

The horses Frankel defeated account for a combine total of 56 Group one Victories. Hawkwing doesn't come close to that. Dancing Brave for some reason flopped at stud and that was with the backing of Khalid's broodmare band who has been the largest since the late 80's and is numbered at 300 today.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

Yes, but compared to Danehill, Sadler's Wells and Galileo his fee didn't reflect the quantity of GP1 winners he was capable of consistently producing.

That's hard to say. His fee was set at privet his last year at stud.
that privet number could have been 200, 250, 280 who knows ? it was never going to be sadlers Wells who stood at 280k in his prime

Peintre Celebre

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

That's hard to say. His fee was set at privet his last year at stud.
that privet number could have been 200, 250, 280 who knows ? it was never going to be sadlers Wells who stood at 280k in his prime

150k

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

150k

150K for sadlers wells ? in his prime?

Peintre Celebre

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

150K for sadlers wells ? in his prime?

Montjeu the year his fee was private. This is according to workers at Coolmore

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Montjeu the year his fee was private. This is according to workers at Coolmore

Ok I'll take your word but this article says different. they give the Privet tag from 250k to 500k (Eurors)
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/super-stallion-to-push-stud-fees-at-coolmore-past-160m-26329187.html

I know for a fact the Coolmore had Sadlers Wells at the 280k mark because it was around the same time that they got a life time breeding and 10% of Storm Cat in the U.S. who stood at $500,000. At one time the held Ownership of the two highest priced Stallions in the world.

Peintre Celebre

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Ok I'll take your word but this article says different. they give the Privet tag from 250k to 500k (Eurors)
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/super-stallion-to-push-stud-fees-at-coolmore-past-160m-26329187.html

I know for a fact the Coolmore had Sadlers Wells at the 280k mark because it was around the same time that they got a life time breeding and 10% of Storm Cat in the U.S. who stood at $500,000. At one time the held Ownership of the two highest priced Stallions in the world.

That is an outdated article. Bearing in mind Fastnet Rock was private when he came to Ireland his fee was only 50k.

You can probably throw Kingmambo in there too didnt they have a share in him? 300KUSD he stood at his height (I think)

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

That is an outdated article. Bearing in mind Fastnet Rock was private when he came to Ireland his fee was only 50k.

Outdated but reflective of the time period I'm speaking of. As I've said I'll take your word.

Peintre Celebre

Not strictly true. Stallion fees worldwide were on a decline, very different case in 2008

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

That is an outdated article. Bearing in mind Fastnet Rock was private when he came to Ireland his fee was only 50k.

You can probably throw Kingmambo in there too didnt they have a share in him? 300KUSD he stood at his height (I think)

Yes they had a share of him and a Lifetime breeding.

FIVE2_THREE

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Not strictly true. Stallion fees worldwide were on a decline, very different case in 2008

True, that's why I put up the Post to support what I was told of Saddlers Wells 280k fee. that article is from 07. By the time 07 came SW had been dethroned and Danehill ruled.

tryfix

Montjeu's fee was just reported as €75k in 2011.. cheaper than Sea The Stars at that stage.

hucklebuck

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

As tryfix said regarding stoutly bred stallions, speed means more to breeders. That's why O'Brien says just how much speed Camelot, Australia, Dylan Thomas, Cape Blanco have etc

Ah sure look, ah now listen ah sure [=horse name] is the best we ever had and has plenty of speed and stamina.

Sure they want speed horses but these two races still have to considered the best two races in europe.

STS won from 8 - 14 and for my money he had the pace to beat the top milers of recent years, class horses dont necessarily look to be travelling quickly until you see the ground they make up when asked.

I am not saying its anyone in this thread but its like people seem to have formed the opinion that STS wasnt quick, maybe this is because he didnt appear to be moving quickly or because he only did enough. The horse was very versatile and could win no matter what way a race was run or what dirty tactics were used.

In terms of his 2 year olds he came into his own between 2 and 3 so I wouldnt be writing off anything by him til seeing it run as a 3 year old. This is the basis of my continuing to back Sea The Moon for the Arc, he was born a few months later than daddy so he could be anything next month, looking forward to the sneak peek tomorrow.

Its personal opinion but if I had a top filly and the cash she would be going to STS

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

...despite the calls of Sea the stars being a horse of a life time he really isn't. for most of us we've seen horses like him in the not so recent past. Lammtara and Dancing Brave and Njinsky II spring to mind...

So while Sea The Stars is modestly priced at 85,000 compared to Frankels £125,000. Frankel's fee reflects not just his record as a horse or his pedigree but most importantly it is unprecedented that a horse of his caliber has gone to stud.

Nijinsky, Dancing Brave and Sea The Stars all achieved more on the racecourse than Frankel did. Good as he was, Lammtara wasn't in the same class as the other three.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

Montjeu's fee was just reported as €75k in 2011.. cheaper than Sea The Stars at that stage.

True but keep in mind his competition. By the time 2011 came Galileo begin to rule the world. Galileo had Frakel, Misty for me, Roderic O'Connor,Together, Seville, Nathaniel, Galikova,Rip Van Winkle, New Approach,Igugu and so many others. Montjeu was a magnificent sire who's life was cut way too short but unfortunately for him He happen to be living in the same era as two of the top 3 sires Europe has ever seen.

FIVE2_THREE

ronsh2000 wrote: »

Nijinsky, Dancing Brave and Sea The Stars all achieved more on the racecourse than Frankel did. Good as he was, Lammtara wasn't in the same class as the other three.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. the horses you've listed left a question mark on their ability as a 4 year old.

FIVE2_THREE

hucklebuck wrote: »

Ah sure look, ah now listen ah sure [=horse name] is the best we ever had and has plenty of speed and stamina.

Sure they want speed horses but these two races still have to considered the best two races in europe.

STS won from 8 - 14 and for my money he had the pace to beat the top milers of recent years, class horses dont necessarily look to be travelling quickly until you see the ground they make up when asked.

I am not saying its anyone in this thread but its like people seem to have formed the opinion that STS wasnt quick, maybe this is because he didnt appear to be moving quickly or because he only did enough. The horse was very versatile and could win no matter what way a race was run or what dirty tactics were used.

In terms of his 2 year olds he came into his own between 2 and 3 so I wouldnt be writing off anything by him til seeing it run as a 3 year old. This is the basis of my continuing to back Sea The Moon for the Arc, he was born a few months later than daddy so he could be anything next month, looking forward to the sneak peek tomorrow.

Its personal opinion but if I had a top filly and the cash she would be going to STS

I can understand why one would say that. BUT what do you do if you want to race your Horse past 3 years old ? STS left a big question mark in that category and His Owner provided a great disservice to his stallion CV by not running at 4. He is off to a solid start but if his horses hit the wall at 4 Breeders will move away from him.