Petrol "stretching"

derry

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The lead was also used to protect the valve seats from wearing. After the lead was removed, hardened valve seats where fitted to newer cars. If you have a classic, you will know all about it and your choice is to faff around with additives or get the head converted to take unleaded.

There exists another solution for the old leaded fuel cars . The 1940, through to the 2014 small aircraft engine still use leaded fuel . That is because in aviation they dont like to change what works in aircraft .
modern car fuel unleaded has ~5%ethanol in it and the ethanol can trap water from the air and cause engines to cut out so they stay with leaded fuel with no ethanol
The local airfield will have leaded fuel .However in ROI it costs €3 a liter as it is made in small batches of 10,000 gallons a time . If the fuel has bad batch they can trace it is the logic .
Av gas as it known as will be higher octane than old cars fuel will use. However there is to my knowledge generally no problem to use higher octane in cars that are lowwer octane engine . However the other way round would cause major problems melt pistons and Ping issues .

As many classic only do shows and driving on private lands that might be more easy for them buy a few liters of Av Gas


However leaded fuel in modern cars will wreck the CAT unless the car has the CAT removed and car is used in lead fuel friendly countries or on private lands .

Derry

Tail Docker

derry wrote: »

There exists another solution for the old leaded fuel cars . The 1940, through to the 2014 small aircraft engine still use leaded fuel . That is because in aviation they dont like to change what works in aircraft .
modern car fuel unleaded has ~5%ethanol in it and the ethanol can trap water from the air and cause engines to cut out so they stay with leaded fuel with no ethanol
The local airfield will have leaded fuel .However in ROI it costs €3 a liter as it is made in small batches of 10,000 gallons a time . If the fuel has bad batch they can trace it is the logic .
Av gas as it known as will be higher octane than old cars fuel will use. However there is to my knowledge generally no problem to use higher octane in cars that are lowwer octane engine . However the other way round would cause major problems melt pistons and Ping issues .

As many classic only do shows and driving on private lands that might be more easy for them buy a few liters of Av Gas


However leaded fuel in modern cars will wreck the CAT unless the car has the CAT removed and car is used in lead fuel friendly countries or on private lands .

Derry

A lot of dirt oval racers run on av-gas. If you fancy putting it in a normal car, fire ahead, I give you about two tanks before the engine is buggered. It kills the racer engines stone dead after a short while anyway and the smoke levels are unreal..

ossie23

i heard that a major outlet in ballindine co mayo is doing it. guy had his car damaged (but insurance company will cover it in his case). hearsay I guess until gardai/customs do the investigation. I'd say it's all over mayo.

RandomAccess

More of this story in the news today.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/kerosene-fuel-ruins-more-than-500-car-engines-30585224.html

visual

Horrible thing for any fly by night garage owner to do. Most wont be able to prove it was their local garage and insurance doesnt cover mechanical engine repairs so some poor sob left with expensive engine repairs.

Wouldn't take much for customs to inspect garages regularly.

bladebrew

I would imagine these are very dodgy garages though not Texaco or Maxol, I just spent 5 days in a class room doing ADR and the regulations around tankers are unbelievable, the petrol is brought from the refinery to the station and into the tank it seems to be a very strict process, to carry any amount of kerosene around in tanks again you have to comply with all the ADR regulations, I don't understand where they think all this kerosene is being put into the fuel?,
If you see a tanker with 1223 on the plate in a garage DONT fill up with petrol there!!

Comhrá

If you see a tanker with 1223 on the plate in a garage DONT fill up with petrol there!!

What's the significance of 1223?

bladebrew

tippman1 wrote: »

What's the significance of 1223?

Sorry I meant to say Orange plate for ADR 1223 is kerosene! I doubt the characters mixing kerosene with petrol are using legitimate tankers to deliver the kerosene though

visual

bladebrew wrote: »

Sorry I meant to say Orange plate for ADR 1223 is kerosene!

A lot of garages also sell kerosene legally
nothing to stop them topping up the petrol tanks with kerosene other than fear of inspection and the fuel tested.

dr.fuzzenstein

visual wrote: »

Horrible thing for any fly by night garage owner to do. Most wont be able to prove it was their local garage and insurance doesnt cover mechanical engine trepairs so some poor sob left with expensive engine repairs.

Wouldn't take much for customs to inspect garages regularly.

It would be more like customs to start dipping petrol cars and prosecuting the owners for using illegal fuel.
Because any Irish enforcement body will keep as far away from potentially violent scumbags as possible, its just so.much easier to bully the average Joe, because he won't visit you at 3 am. Ireland, the only country where the law is afraid if the criminals. So expect no action from customs any time soon, or ever.

Comhrá

Ireland, the only country where the law is afraid if the criminals. So expect no action from customs any time soon, or ever.

Sadly seems to be the case alright - and also - a government with no real interest in, or appetite to challenge the fuel-launderers or cigarette smugglers either. Ireland must be an organised criminal's paradise.

youtube!

I think we should start a new thread not naming and shaming (for fear of libel) but instead we should do the opposite, for example..

"I filled up last week with tesco petrol drogheda, car ran fine".

"I used topaz Navan car ran fine" and so on , at least then we will have a good idea where to go based on other motorists experience of the fuel. Just a thought.

Ghost Train

Definitely not good to read this news, would make me wonder if the car running a bit rough at start up when cold could be related to something like this or would effect be more obvious

visual

Ghost Train wrote: »

Definitely not good to read this news, would make me wonder if the car running a bit rough at start up when cold could be related to something like this or would effect be more obvious

When you notice its too late damage is done

deaglan169

is there anyway of finding out which service stations are owned by fuel company and those who are owned by private individuals who have selected fuel company as supplier?

Gazzmonkey

Ghost Train wrote: »

Definitely not good to read this news, would make me wonder if the car running a bit rough at start up when cold could be related to something like this or would effect be more obvious

All cars run a little rough when stone cold, some more than others.

mikeecho

deaglan169 wrote: »

is there anyway of finding out which service stations are owned by fuel company and those who are owned by private individuals who have selected fuel company as supplier?

I mailed Topaz a few months back, asking which of their stations were operated by them.


I never got a reply.

Gazzmonkey

youtube! wrote: »

I think we should start a new thread not naming and shaming (for fear of libel) but instead we should do the opposite, for example..

"I filled up last week with tesco petrol drogheda, car ran fine".

"I used topaz Navan car ran fine" and so on , at least then we will have a good idea where to go based on other motorists experience of the fuel. Just a thought.

I think that's not a bad idea, which ever stations are never mentioned would be avoided.

JustAddWater

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

I think that's not a bad idea, which ever stations are never mentioned would be avoided.

Avoid a petrol station because nobody on an internet forum had anything to say about them?

Brilliant idea ....

mayo.mick

Serious number of people at the meeting tonight in Gateway Hotel Swinford about #petrolstretching in Swinford. Over 70 claims to one insurance company from Swinford area alone. On a survey from people coming to the meeting tonight, 29 affected from 1 garage and 19 from another garage. There were people there from Roscommon, Foxford, Charlestown Ballina and numerous other towns, i could not hear. I only got as far as the hallway! Figures quoted are from the chairman of the committee who gathered the names and is handing them into An Garda.

1st report was on 8th of August last, but contamination was going on since June/July. Seems to be mostly newer cars, 08 upwards. Also motorbikes, quads, lawnmowers and strimmers.

An Garda was present but not customs & excise or revenue. Cllr Michael Smyth, Cllr Annie Mae Reape, Michelle Mulhern TD, Dara Callery TD were some of the elected representitives present. This is going to get bigger, a lot more counties affected also, mostly in the BMW region.

Some insurance companies have paid out but they have now refused to cover the costs, according to numerous victims speaking from the floor. — at Swinford Co Mayo

RandomAccess

Good to see some more information on this. The depth of info in the media has been pretty dire, often it's just a regurgitated press release from the Gardai.

Esel

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It would be more like customs to start dipping petrol cars and prosecuting the owners for using illegal fuel.
Because any Irish enforcement body will keep as far away from potentially violent scumbags as possible, its just so.much easier to bully the average Joe, because he won't visit you at 3 am. Ireland, the only country where the law is afraid if the criminals. So expect no action from customs any time soon, or ever.

The 'potentially violent scumbags' are the ones selling the contaminated fuel to the station. The person profiting from the station, while certainly knowing someone (who knows someone etc.) who knows a 'potentially violent scumbag', is probably not 'potentially violent', but might well fit your definition of a scumbag.

I don't think that enforcement bodies are afraid of investigating and prosecuting proprietors of these kind of stations. They need to follow procedure, gather evidence etc. before there is any chance of a successful prosecution. The 'potentially violent scumbags' are usually many degrees removed from the point of sale, and the driver of the tanker is far down the food chain. The 'potentially violent scumbags' are probably well-known to the authorities on both sides of the border. Imo, pressure must be happening if the game is changing from washed diesel to 'stretched petrol'.

I would think that this 'streched petrol' phenomenon will be fairly short-lived.

In the meantime, the safest course of action for the motorist is to only buy fuel from large, mainstream, well-established stations - and be sure to get (and keep!) a receipt. Save a few cents per litre by shopping around between these stations, certainly.

Remember the old saying: If it's too good to be true etc. More fool you!

mayo.mick

Esel wrote: »

The 'potentially violent scumbags' are the ones selling the contaminated fuel to the station. The person profiting from the station, while certainly knowing someone (who knows someone etc.) who knows a 'potentially violent scumbag', is probably not 'potentially violent', but might well fit your definition of a scumbag.

I don't think that enforcement bodies are afraid of investigating and prosecuting proprietors of these kind of stations. They need to follow procedure, gather evidence etc. before there is any chance of a successful prosecution. The 'potentially violent scumbags' are usually many degrees removed from the point of sale, and the driver of the tanker is far down the food chain. The 'potentially violent scumbags' are probably well-known to the authorities on both sides of the border. Imo, pressure must be happening if the game is changing from washed diesel to 'stretched petrol'.

I would think that this 'streched petrol' phenomenon will be fairly short-lived.

In the meantime, the safest course of action for the motorist is to only buy fuel from large, mainstream, well-established stations - and be sure to get (and keep!) a receipt. Save a few cents per litre by shopping around between these stations, certainly.

Remember the old saying: If it's too good to be true etc. More fool you!

Keeping receipts is only evidence that you bought the petrol at that station that day. The evidence is burnt! Everyone affected at the meeting last night had there tanks trsted and petrol was clean. Filled tank again with good petrol. Only thing, if you filled up with bad petrol and the engine blew with half a tank left, then you'd have evidence. Only problem also, the guards dont know what chemical there're adding to it, said so last night.

kona

jimgoose wrote: »

No. That's accounted for in properly configured turbo/supercharged setups.

I'd say a proper petrol turbo would **** itself running ****e like that, as mentioned before it would pre detonate until the pistons crumbled.

dr.fuzzenstein

JustAddWater wrote: »

Avoid a petrol station because nobody on an internet forum had anything to say about them?

Brilliant idea ....

Well, thank the libel laws of Ireland and also websites that have a policy of not naming businesses in a negative way.
But maybe pumps.ie or other sites could have a ratings section, if a station gets a low rating for the quality of their fuel, avoid.

Bandara

This practice has been going on for 3 or 4 years, I've always known it as 'Striping' this term stretching is new to me. Only reason it's in the public now is because they are doing it so badly now that vehicles are been noticeably damaged.

As an aside, filing your tank up after a fill of striped fuel will not show up clear on a test. It takes 3-6 months for all traces to be gone from a tank. Anything the Gardai tell you is nonsense they have no clue of the situation, either does revenue from what I can see. The government have ignored this problem for years and the inspection agencies are totally unqualified to identify or deal with it.

Unbranded or run down or independent sites are to be avoided, end of. Yes it is possible to have a rogue trader in a respected brand name site but it's a very tiny percentage of the dodgy sites out there.

The customs are blatantly aware of these sites, if only from the lists that many of us genuine dealers have sent them giving them names and addresses of where washed derv / striped unl fuel is being sold. Yet they do nothing.

There is 100% a fear aspect as there is a very well known operator in Dublin city with 2 sites himself and people are always on here saying what a great price the fuel there is. The owner is a known high profile republican thug who threatens (personally, and via his family members) anyone who enters their sites

Revenue are afraid to go on the site without Garda backup, there was an instance early last year of an inspector getting a knock on his front door late in the evening from this operator 'for a chat'.

If it looks too cheap, it is too cheap. We are making between 1.5c-3c a litre on fuel. So that guy who is 3c cheaper than everyone else. He's not doing it to be nice.

fryup

is there a chance of your car cutting out as you're driving along the motorway??

_______________________________________________

jos duffy talks about it on last thursdays liveline

mikeecho

fryup wrote: »

is there a chance of your cutting out as you're driving along the motorway??

_______________________________________________

jos duffy talks about it on last thursdays liveline

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/podcasts/

Thursday and Monday

Dartz

fryup wrote: »

is there a chance of your cutting out as you're driving along the motorway??

_______________________________________________

jos duffy talks about it on last thursdays liveline

It's possible. You're more likely to notice detonation under load however, when giving it a bit of a shoe. Under light load or cruising it's going to be less obvious.

Cerco

mayo.mick wrote: »

Keeping receipts is only evidence that you bought the petrol at that station that day. The evidence is burnt! Everyone affected at the meeting last night had there tanks trsted and petrol was clean. Filled tank again with good petrol. Only thing, if you filled up with bad petrol and the engine blew with half a tank left, then you'd have evidence. Only problem also, the guards dont know what chemical there're adding to it, said so last night.

So everybody cars tested had clean fuel. What evidence is there then to support the claims?
It is not credible that everyone affected , at the meeting, would have emptied their tanks leaving no trace of contamination before engine failure and testing.
Perhaps nobody was prepared to stand up and be counted?.
I don't doubt that stretching is happening but I think there may be some hysteria as well.