New Coffee Shop in Clondalkin - Your Thoughts

Jontronix

Hi There, I am currently in the planning phase of opening my own coffee shop in 2015. I am trying to identify the best areas for locating my business and while there are several which appeal to me I keep coming back to the idea of a coffee shop in Clondalkin. I have a few reasons for this idea and I'd like to know if you agree, have a different opinion or can recommend any other areas that I might not have thought of.

I know Clondalkin well having grown up there and I've only moved out of the area in the past couple of years.

Reasons:
1. Clondalkin is one of the few remaining old villages left in Dublin which is still busy and thriving. It hasn't been killed off by a local mega shopping-centre because Liffey Valley & The Square are just that bit far away. Thankfully.
2. Clondalkin has a large population.
3. The village is packed with takeaways and fastfood offerings, but I can only think of 2 cafes, and both of those would have to be classed as the "greasey spoon" style offering.
4. I can't think of anywhere in the village area that you can actually get a proper espresso based coffee drink & having lived in some other parts of Dublin now, there are loads of coffee shops/cafes in any decently populated area.
5. There are many businesses and business parks located within a couple of miles of Clondalkin village.

I've obviously mentioned this idea to some friends and family before and some of the negatives I've received back have been.

1. There's no appetite for a "nice" or "fancy" café in Clondalkin, people in Clondalkin just won't appreciate good coffee.
I don't believe that. Sure there are many who love a brekkie roll and a pot of cheap tea, but I think there's a large enough population that there are many who would also appreciate some high quality coffee, cakes and sandwiches. I'm from the area myself and many a time when I was meeting someone I literally couldn't think of a nice place to meet them so end up meeting in the pub, or a local hotel.
2. People who want nicer stuff just go to Avoca in Rathcoole.
I think this is a good point because if people are willing to leave the area and travel for nicer food and drinks then surely those people would appreciate something closer to home.
3. Is Clondalkin busy enough on weedays?
This is one point I have to investigate myself as I've never actually worked in the area so have not seen it very often on weekdays. On the odd occasions I have passed through the village on weekdays it seems extremely busy.

Anyway, this is where I'm at, at the moment and I'd appreciate any feedback or suggestions you may have, as I'm well aware of people getting blinkered when an idea takes root and I don't want to be that guy who ignores all the advice and ploughs on into a disaster.

jetsonx

First of all, congratulations on asking for advice. Many entrepreneurs do plough straight in and often pay dearly for their "deaf-ears" approach.

The main problem I see is this:

You want to setup a good class cafe.

But, quality coffee / food - will increase your overhead substantially.

This cost might not be sustainable in some demographic areas.

Jontronix wrote: »

5. There are many businesses and business parks located within a couple of miles of Clondalkin village.

Proximity is key when it comes to the cafe business. People are not prepared to travel for coffee. Some coffee shop entrepreneurs have even found that proximity even trumps the product offering itself.

I suppose the main problem you will have to find out is this: what is the price sensitivity of your average consumer walking down main street Clondalkin at 11am in the morning like? Look at the shops there already - are there any mid-to-high end retailers there? Have a walk into the newsagents there - look at the newspapers which they are selling...All of these can be ad-hoc but useful ways of doing research on an area.

pedronomix

I ran a business for years in a nearby industrial estate, and avoided going into Clondalkin as it is a traffic nightmare. The Mill centre seems to be busy but the rest of the town is dire for parking. If it was close to the Mill with the offices etc across the road, it could be good.

Liberalbrehon

I suggest you examine very carefully your methodology for opening a coffee shop in clondalkin. Many questions.
Have you worked in a coffee shop?
Do you know what the margins are?
Have you done a three year projection, including every cost and contingencies. For this you need to know your fixed and variable costs.
Who does the bookkeeping and accounting? Do you plan to take holidays during the year? What if you're sick? How much can you pay staff? Labour intensive business.
Good location in the village? I don't think there is one.
Go on the street and do market research, how many people walk down the street Monday to Sunday? How many willing to pay 3.50 for just a nice coffee.
Seriously you need to really think about it and plan before laying out real money. Probably easier things to do to invest your money. What rate of return are you looking for? Possibly business opportunities in or around Clondalkin but don't invest because you grew up there or think you see a business opportunity. Maybe there is gap in market but is there market in the gap?

Jontronix

jetsonx wrote: »

First of all, congratulations on asking for advice. Many entrepreneurs do plough straight in and often pay dearly for their "deaf-ears" approach.

The main problem I see is this:

You want to setup a good class cafe.

But, quality coffee / food - will increase your overhead substantially.

This cost might not be sustainable in some demographic areas.




Proximity is key when it comes to the cafe business. People are not prepared to travel for coffee. Some coffee shop entrepreneurs have even found that proximity even trumps the product offering itself.

I suppose the main problem you will have to find out is this: what is the price sensitivity of your average consumer walking down main street Clondalkin at 11am in the morning like? Look at the shops there already - are there any mid-to-high end retailers there? Have a walk into the newsagents there - look at the newspapers which they are selling...All of these can be ad-hoc but useful ways of doing research on an area.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm aware that offering better quality means higher costs and that I must factor this into any business plan, but it's definitely the route I want to go down as it's not catered for at the moment, and I also want to run a business that I'm proud of and would like to be a customer in myself.

If I walk down the street in Clondalkin at the moment there aren't many higher end shops at all, and definitely no higher end food offering. That doesn't put me off in this instance because it's not as if there has been previous efforts that have failed, there just hasn't been any efforts at all.

It's always a risk offering something different to what's being done at the moment but it can also be the usp of a successful business.

Jontronix

pedronomix wrote: »

I ran a business for years in a nearby industrial estate, and avoided going into Clondalkin as it is a traffic nightmare. The Mill centre seems to be busy but the rest of the town is dire for parking. If it was close to the Mill with the offices etc across the road, it could be good.

Yeah I've been through Clondalkin on the odd afternoon when I've had a half day and it has been really busy. I suppose if I worked nearby then this would put me off going into the village to avoid the time waste and parking problems, but I also suppose this means that the village is already really busy with people.

I work near Maynooth at the moment and we all generally avoid the village as it is too busy to negotiate for our lunch hour, but that's only because it's busy and buzzing without us.

Perhaps I might reach out to the local businesses with a delivery service, if it's a problem for local workers to come into the village. This is definitely something I have planned on rolling out once the coffee shop is up and running smoothly.

duffman13

Jontronix wrote: »

Yeah I've been through Clondalkin on the odd afternoon when I've had a half day and it has been really busy. I suppose if I worked nearby then this would put me off going into the village to avoid the time waste and parking problems, but I also suppose this means that the village is already really busy with people.

I work near Maynooth at the moment and we all generally avoid the village as it is too busy to negotiate for our lunch hour, but that's only because it's busy and buzzing without us.

Perhaps I might reach out to the local businesses with a delivery service, if it's a problem for local workers to come into the village. This is definitely something I have planned on rolling out once the coffee shop is up and running smoothly.

Being very honest with you most of the people in the village during the week are not workers or people who would stop of for a coffee. There was a coffee shop/bakery beside Domino's which closed down about two years ago. I think another place has opened since in that location. The streat in the mill seemed to be going fairly well for food and a spot for a coffee but closed down recently.

I think location is huge for you but there would be a market for what you propose. Whether that market is large enough to sustain your business would require a lot of research.

When working I usually meet people in Costa in Liffey Valley and even though clondalkin village is a closer option, parking and traffic concerns would make me drive the extra couple of mins to LV.

Jontronix

Liberalbrehon wrote: »

I suggest you examine very carefully your methodology for opening a coffee shop in clondalkin. Many questions.
Have you worked in a coffee shop?
Do you know what the margins are?
Have you done a three year projection, including every cost and contingencies. For this you need to know your fixed and variable costs.
Who does the bookkeeping and accounting? Do you plan to take holidays during the year? What if you're sick? How much can you pay staff? Labour intensive business.
Good location in the village? I don't think there is one.
Go on the street and do market research, how many people walk down the street Monday to Sunday? How many willing to pay 3.50 for just a nice coffee.
Seriously you need to really think about it and plan before laying out real money. Probably easier things to do to invest your money. What rate of return are you looking for? Possibly business opportunities in or around Clondalkin but don't invest because you grew up there or think you see a business opportunity. Maybe there is gap in market but is there market in the gap?

Thanks for the points you raised there. Most of them are general points for anyone starting a new business and I've already taken these on board, I've been planning and thinking about this for over 2 years now, and I'm ready to make the leap from bill paying job to risk taking entrepreneur.

I'm not starting this business to become rich, I'm starting this business to do something I love, to work with coffee and food and people. I like to think I've got a sharp business mind so I want it to pay for itself top begin with and hopefully in time give me a good living.

I haven't completed all my research yet but it is the location problem that is mostly affecting me right now, and I want to get a clearer picture of this.

I think you have a point about lack of good locations in Clondalkin. I've been keeping an eye on the commercial property market for 2 years now, and not many come up in Clondalkin at all, and when they do they are usually not the right fit (wrong location/wrong size). I am actually encouraged by this to some extent because there isn't a high turnover of businesses in Clondalkin, a lot of the businesses have been there for a long time, so while this gives me hope that the village is a good place to have a business, it also means I will find it difficult to get a premises.
Chances are, like with all things of this nature, I will have to compromise somewhere. I will probably end up getting a property that is not quite where I like, or will require more work than I would have liked.

gavindublin

Might be a bit off track but ill throw it in. In liffey valley a new coffee shop opened about three months ago, cafe frei. Sell teas and coffee from around the world in all combinations.

They recently added in a panini bar, cake stand and mineral fridge. Looks like they spent serious money on the fit out.

might be worth a look to see if they would be competition.

Jontronix

duffman13 wrote:

When working I usually meet people in Costa in Liffey Valley and even though clondalkin village is a closer option, parking and traffic concerns would make me drive the extra couple of mins to LV.

duffman13 wrote:

Being very honest with you most of the people in the village during the week are not workers or people who would stop of for a coffee. There was a coffee shop/bakery beside Domino's which closed down about two years ago. I think another place has opened since in that location. The streat in the mill seemed to be going fairly well for food and a spot for a coffee but closed down recently.

duffman13 wrote:

I think location is huge for you but there would be a market for what you propose. Whether that market is large enough to sustain your business would require a lot of research.

Thanks for the feedback. I know thar location next to Domino's and have seen the last couple of businesses come and go. I feel like the location there is not ideal but I mostly think that there wasn't enough investment to make it look good. They never changed the crappy yellow steel windows and the signage was like something you'd print off yourself a home. I think a slicker operation in that building could do well, but it's not the ideal place for me.

I didn't realise The Streat had closed down. I was only in it once but it struck me as a poor man's coffee chain. I thought The Mill was the right location for it.

interesting that u bring up the parking question, this definitely is a huge consideration for workers and convenience it seems.

BTW being honest who are the type of people in the village during the day? my sister worked in one of the banks there and I know they end up in Centra for lunch a lot of days but she'd tell me there are all sorts during the day. unemployed people, retired people, school kids, housewives/ husbands and a few skobies thrown in :-)

jetsonx

Jontronix wrote: »

lunch a lot of days but she'd tell me there are all sorts during the day. unemployed people, retired people, school kids, housewives/ husbands and a few skobies thrown in :-)

Unfortunately, some of this demographic are type who would phone up Joe Duffy saying they they were "ripped off" because they paid €8 for a sandwich and a coffee (having no idea of the costs which are incurred in running a small business).

Your product or service positioning must have a target market who are willing and able on a repeated basis to pay a premium for your product.

duffman13

Jontronix wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback. I know thar location next to Domino's and have seen the last couple of businesses come and go. I feel like the location there is not ideal but I mostly think that there wasn't enough investment to make it look good. They never changed the crappy yellow steel windows and the signage was like something you'd print off yourself a home. I think a slicker operation in that building could do well, but it's not the ideal place for me.

I didn't realise The Streat had closed down. I was only in it once but it struck me as a poor man's coffee chain. I thought The Mill was the right location for it.

interesting that u bring up the parking question, this definitely is a huge consideration for workers and convenience it seems.

BTW being honest who are the type of people in the village during the day? my sister worked in one of the banks there and I know they end up in Centra for lunch a lot of days but she'd tell me there are all sorts during the day. unemployed people, retired people, school kids, housewives/ husbands and a few skobies thrown in :-)

Huge generalisations but most of the people in the village during the day are unemployed or retired. These are generally seen stopping off in Boss Hogs or Subway on the one day of the week they go to the village.

Parking and traffic for me are an issue, during the summer I have no problem popping down the village but with schools back the traffic is a lot worse and there is a lot of kids around the village at lunch time. For me personally if the only option was to go grab a coffee in Clondalkin to have a chat with a colleague or a client the only place I would have went was the mill. The food and coffee was muck though but with a better offering you might attract some more people in.

I don't know what the footfall is like on main street in comparison to the mill. If it was my business I would lean towards the Mill due to the fact you have a large base of people in the village who collect money from the post office and would probably stop in for a sambo and a coffee on the way to Dunnes. I don't know if this your target market but IMO it would appeal to people on the go aswell. Moves you a little closer to parkwest and the industrial estates and takes out the fear of getting caught in traffic with free parking thrown in for good measure.

I dont know the clondalkin area well at all, but when I was a student I worked in a cafe in Dunlaoghaire called GTI. This was a high end cafe, nice coffees, sandwiches, and other food and meals. He spent a lot on the decor, and was constantly upgrading the place, expanding the menu, adding an alcohol license etc.
I think it stayed open for about 5-6 years and just chewed up all the investment and closed down eventually. The owner was a passionate guy with a good background in marketing. He was certainly dedicated.

Now Dunlaoghaire has been a graveyard for many's a business, but he had a location v close to the cinema, and also bloom fields shopping centre. So there was lots of traffic. Despite a decent lunch trade and packed on a saturday afternoon it still wasn't enough. He couldnt get people in the door in the mornings or the evenings and that was his undoing I think.

duffman13

In fairness Dun Laoghaire is a completely different area. Clondalkin IMO wouldn't be as dependent on a lunch trade and would probably trade very well if the product was right. Looking at Clares Pizzeria which recently reopened. Been doing a roaring trade due to quality and recommendations, they've already had to expand floor space.

There is a lot of reasons to be optimistic opening a new business in Clondalkin

Dutchie

I have a business located in a industrial estate on the Neilstown side of Clondalkin. For years it has been a bugbear of mine that there is no decent place to go to for lunch.
Myself and my colleagues eat mainly in the Waterside. They offer a good selection of food with a great service.

We never go into the village for lunch as parking and general traffic is a nightmare. My accountant walks from the office to the bank to do lodgements as it is quicker than driving!

Maybe, to test the water would it be prudent to run a 'mobile' coffee and snack van around the industrial estates in the morning (pre-10am) and then park up in one spot from 12-2. This would reduce your fixed costs, offer a fantastic mobile marketing platform and limit your exposure should the project not work out.

Good luck.

pedronomix

Dutchie wrote: »

I have a business located in a industrial estate on the Neilstown side of Clondalkin. For years it has been a bugbear of mine that there is no decent place to go to for lunch.
Myself and my colleagues eat mainly in the Waterside. They offer a good selection of food with a great service.

We never go into the village for lunch as parking and general traffic is a nightmare. My accountant walks from the office to AIB to do lodgements as it is quicker than driving!

Maybe, to test the water would it be prudent to run a 'mobile' coffee and snack van around the industrial estates in the morning (pre-10am) and then park up in one spot from 12-2. This would reduce your fixed costs, offer a fantastic mobile marketing platform and limit your exposure should the project not work out.

Good luck.

We went to Palmerstown as it was quicker and had an Ulster Bank too!!

Thoie

I live near, but not in, Clondalkin, and would be interested in a high end coffee shop, but I wouldn't be your daily customer. If it helps, here's what I'd like:

- Parking. I'd generally be driving into Clondalkin, so want somewhere handy to park.
- Weekends. I'd be most interested in Saturday/Sunday brunches, with all day breakfasts and fancier options. I want to be able to get breakfast at 2pm on a Sunday when hungover
- I am less likely to use a coffee shop in the village during the week, but if I do, it will most likely be around the 11am, coffee and a bun time.
- I want quality coffee rather than quantity. I'm not that interested in a giant bucket of coffee. A normal "mug" size of coffee is fine, provided it's nice
- Comfortable chairs. They don't have to be sofas/armchairs, but they need to be comfortable to sit on for more than 20 minutes.
- Either table service or self-service. I have an unreasonable dislike of half and half.


If you go ahead and open this, post back here so I can go check it out!

smellmepower

Any of the cafes that have opened in the village haven't lasted very long.There's been a few given a go in the little shopping centre beside Dominos Pizza over the last few years in particular.Think there's a bakery/coffee shop there now,but it never looks that busy.

Parking in the village is a nightmare too,and there's not much of an office crowd that would be into/willing to pay for fancy coffee either.Most people go to the streat cafe or the Dunnes one in the Mill for tea/coffee if they're doing shopping.Laurels pub do decent food at lunch time,but never that busy.

Village is more of a place people pass through as opposed to wander around and spend time in,as there's feck all really in it besides Tesco,Credit Union and AIB.

The proposed visitor centre at the Round Tower has plans for a cafe too I believe.

jetsonx

Thoie wrote: »

- I want quality coffee rather than quantity. I'm not that interested in a giant bucket of coffee. A normal "mug" size of coffee is fine, provided it's nice

This is amazingly common in Ireland.

Usually, the bigger the cup - the worse the quality.

msdoc

I used to work in Park West and Clondalkin would be a bit off putting because of parking. But don't know the area or the demographics.

There is a strip of shops near the Crumlin Children's hospital and I often think that a coffee shop would do well there. There would be hospital employees as well as patients & their parents who want to get out for a couple of hours. If the coffee shop was child friendly (milkshakes, ice cream bar) I think that would be a bonus. The Ronald McDonald house is at the top of the road so maybe some fresh ready meals. It is a busy enough road with a good spread of shops (pharmacy, butchers, centra, greengrocers).

scwazrh

I think this will really come down to your pricing .If you can deliver better quality food and coffee for the same price as the "greasy spoon " cafes you mention , there's a good chance you will be onto a winner.If you cant I don't think it will work as imo the demographic of the daytime visitors to clondalkin village will not pay extra for what you may believe is a better product.

With that said , there does seem to be a growing demand for old style cafe's offering freshly baked cakes , scones, sandwiches etc and a decent cup of tea / coffee at a fair price.This is usually something the greasy spoon place doesn't offer so that may be an option. I wouldn't get too much into barrista style coffee though as the margins on good coffee is very low contrary to what most people seem to think

Jontronix

duffman13 wrote: »

Huge generalisations but most of the people in the village during the day are unemployed or retired. These are generally seen stopping off in Boss Hogs or Subway on the one day of the week they go to the village.

Parking and traffic for me are an issue, during the summer I have no problem popping down the village but with schools back the traffic is a lot worse and there is a lot of kids around the village at lunch time. For me personally if the only option was to go grab a coffee in Clondalkin to have a chat with a colleague or a client the only place I would have went was the mill. The food and coffee was muck though but with a better offering you might attract some more people in.

I don't know what the footfall is like on main street in comparison to the mill. If it was my business I would lean towards the Mill due to the fact you have a large base of people in the village who collect money from the post office and would probably stop in for a sambo and a coffee on the way to Dunnes. I don't know if this your target market but IMO it would appeal to people on the go aswell. Moves you a little closer to parkwest and the industrial estates and takes out the fear of getting caught in traffic with free parking thrown in for good measure.

I hadn't really thought of The Mill as a location for a nice cafe, but I'll definitely take your points on board and consider it again. not sure it would suit the style of cafe I have in mind but the number one priority is to have a profitable business.

Jontronix

Deleted User wrote: »

I dont know the clondalkin area well at all, but when I was a student I worked in a cafe in Dunlaoghaire called GTI. This was a high end cafe, nice coffees, sandwiches, and other food and meals. He spent a lot on the decor, and was constantly upgrading the place, expanding the menu, adding an alcohol license etc.
I think it stayed open for about 5-6 years and just chewed up all the investment and closed down eventually. The owner was a passionate guy with a good background in marketing. He was certainly dedicated.

Now Dunlaoghaire has been a graveyard for many's a business, but he had a location v close to the cinema, and also bloom fields shopping centre. So there was lots of traffic. Despite a decent lunch trade and packed on a saturday afternoon it still wasn't enough. He couldnt get people in the door in the mornings or the evenings and that was his undoing I think.

Yeah from everything I've researched it seems to be so important to generate trade in the quieter periods of mid-morning and after lunch. Any cafe worth it's salt has to be busy at lunch time or else it's doomed.

I know Dun Laoghaire fairly well as i live near there now, and like Clondalkin I think it contains a wide array of people from different backgrounds, it's just about weighing up the right location with the right offering. The million dollar question.

Jontronix

duffman13 wrote: »

In fairness Dun Laoghaire is a completely different area. Clondalkin IMO wouldn't be as dependent on a lunch trade and would probably trade very well if the product was right. Looking at Clares Pizzeria which recently reopened. Been doing a roaring trade due to quality and recommendations, they've already had to expand floor space.

There is a lot of reasons to be optimistic opening a new business in Clondalkin

It's good to hear that Claires is doing well, I used to love meals there years ago when it was open originally. Clondalkin sorely misses a couple of restaurants as well and it's no wonder a nice Italian is doing well. there's only so much re-heated food in The Treetop that people can take.

Thoie

Jontronix wrote: »

I hadn't really thought of The Mill as a location for a nice cafe, but I'll definitely take your points on board and consider it again. not sure it would suit the style of cafe I have in mind but the number one priority is to have a profitable business.

I'd prefer somewhere that does "just ok" coffee and a bun (or scone or whatever) to a fancier place in The Mill. I find the place a bit depressing, and not somewhere I want to hang around. Though maybe from your perspective that would be a good thing - get the customers moving through

Jontronix

Dutchie wrote: »

I have a business located in a industrial estate on the Neilstown side of Clondalkin. For years it has been a bugbear of mine that there is no decent place to go to for lunch.
Myself and my colleagues eat mainly in the Waterside. They offer a good selection of food with a great service.

We never go into the village for lunch as parking and general traffic is a nightmare. My accountant walks from the office to AIB to do lodgements as it is quicker than driving!

Maybe, to test the water would it be prudent to run a 'mobile' coffee and snack van around the industrial estates in the morning (pre-10am) and then park up in one spot from 12-2. This would reduce your fixed costs, offer a fantastic mobile marketing platform and limit your exposure should the project not work out.

Good luck.

Thanks for the suggestion, a couple of other people have also mentioned a mobile option to me as well. This is a good idea and the Street Food phenomenon has really taken off in other cities around the world where food vans have massive queues every day.

Only problem with this type of operation is the usual red-tape with everything in Ireland. You have to apply for permission to trade in any area, and these requests take time and cost money, but it's the type of business that requires striking while the iron is hot.

I will look into this further though as a mobile unit does offer the appeal of travel and setting up in some nice venues, as well as the lower financial risk.

Jontronix

Thoie wrote: »

I live near, but not in, Clondalkin, and would be interested in a high end coffee shop, but I wouldn't be your daily customer. If it helps, here's what I'd like:

- Parking. I'd generally be driving into Clondalkin, so want somewhere handy to park.
- Weekends. I'd be most interested in Saturday/Sunday brunches, with all day breakfasts and fancier options. I want to be able to get breakfast at 2pm on a Sunday when hungover
- I am less likely to use a coffee shop in the village during the week, but if I do, it will most likely be around the 11am, coffee and a bun time.
- I want quality coffee rather than quantity. I'm not that interested in a giant bucket of coffee. A normal "mug" size of coffee is fine, provided it's nice
- Comfortable chairs. They don't have to be sofas/armchairs, but they need to be comfortable to sit on for more than 20 minutes.
- Either table service or self-service. I have an unreasonable dislike of half and half.


If you go ahead and open this, post back here so I can go check it out!

ha ha thanks for your input. I like the suggestions. Brunch has to be the best meal of all.
I agree about the coffee, I like Italian style rather than American.

Jontronix

smellmepower wrote: »

Any of the cafes that have opened in the village haven't lasted very long.There's been a few given a go in the little shopping centre beside Dominos Pizza over the last few years in particular.Think there's a bakery/coffee shop there now,but it never looks that busy.

Parking in the village is a nightmare too,and there's not much of an office crowd that would be into/willing to pay for fancy coffee either.Most people go to the streat cafe or the Dunnes one in the Mill for tea/coffee if they're doing shopping.Laurels pub do decent food at lunch time,but never that busy.

Village is more of a place people pass through as opposed to wander around and spend time in,as there's feck all really in it besides Tesco,Credit Union and AIB.

The proposed visitor centre at the Round Tower has plans for a cafe too I believe.

Yeah I've actually made some enquiries into the Round Tower project because it could be an amazing tourist site, and a nice cafe there could do great business. The problem is that the details are really sketchy at the moment and no one seems quite sure when exactly the project will definitely go ahead. I also think that a government backed facility are likely to go with a long standing catering business in order to minimise risk, but it will also minimise the chances of creating something new and exciting.

Jontronix

msdoc wrote: »

I used to work in Park West and Clondalkin would be a bit off putting because of parking. But don't know the area or the demographics.

There is a strip of shops near the Crumlin Children's hospital and I often think that a coffee shop would do well there. There would be hospital employees as well as patients & their parents who want to get out for a couple of hours. If the coffee shop was child friendly (milkshakes, ice cream bar) I think that would be a bonus. The Ronald McDonald house is at the top of the road so maybe some fresh ready meals. It is a busy enough road with a good spread of shops (pharmacy, butchers, centra, greengrocers).

Thanks for the tip, I don't know that area much at all so it hasn't really crossed my mind. My only concern with that location would be the plans for the childrens hospital to move in future.

Birdsong

Hi, I live in Clondalkin, just on the outskirts of the village & to be honest up to a year ago I would have said there was no where, but in the past 12 months there are 2 places which nobody has mentioned which I would go on a regular basies & you should check out I think. There is Honeycomb in Bawnogue Enterprise Centre, little expensive but very good & has parking or is walking distance for me, and there is now a cafe in Newlands Garden Centre, again has parking, both of these seem to be doing very well. Pandinis at Newlands cross which is also nice

Jontronix

scwazrh wrote: »

I think this will really come down to your pricing .If you can deliver better quality food and coffee for the same price as the "greasy spoon " cafes you mention , there's a good chance you will be onto a winner.If you cant I don't think it will work as imo the demographic of the daytime visitors to clondalkin village will not pay extra for what you may believe is a better product.

With that said , there does seem to be a growing demand for old style cafe's offering freshly baked cakes , scones, sandwiches etc and a decent cup of tea / coffee at a fair price.This is usually something the greasy spoon place doesn't offer so that may be an option. I wouldn't get too much into barrista style coffee though as the margins on good coffee is very low contrary to what most people seem to think

I definitely won't be able to offer better quality for the same price, not unless other cafes are overcharging for their food and drinks. I will offer something superior to what's on offer, but not something so cutting edge that it will alienate everyone, I'm not sure 3FE would do well in Clondalkin. I hope that there will be enough of a market that will recognise this superior quality and value, and maybe open some others up to some great food and coffee.

Jontronix

Birdsong wrote: »

Hi, I live in Clondalkin, just on the outskirts of the village & to be honest up to a year ago I would have said there was no where, but in the past 12 months there are 2 places which nobody has mentioned which I would go on a regular basies & you should check out I think. There is Honeycomb in Bawnogue Enterprise Centre, little expensive but very good & has parking or is walking distance for me, and there is now a cafe in Newlands Garden Centre, again has parking, both of these seem to be doing very well. Pandinis at Newlands cross which is also nice

I've never heard of Honeycomb but I will definitely check this out, thanks for the heads up. I have been in the cafe in Newlands and it is definitely a step up from anything in the village but I still think it is some way off the quality of cafes that are just taken for granted in most areas.

daviecronin

Hello OP,
I'm nowhere near familiar with clondalkin area at all. But what I would say to you is to almost pick a target market but obviously try not to exclude anyone. But maybe target you teenagers. Is there schools nearby? Can you offer something different. I myself go to this lovely unique retro style cafe with my friends. They give you a lump of chocolate on a stick and hot frothy milk mmmmm and you get to melt it yourself. They offer free wifi, and a free chocolate with each drink. Towards the back of the premises they have around 30 computer which are nearly always packed! It's a very studenty/ unique cafe you wouldn't see much old folk in their! The interior design is different and cosy at the same time. They've a fabulous location so much footfall! Maybe it's something you want to think about who ideally do you want in your cafe. Student/college folk, young families, older friends stuff like that. What your cafe looks like and what it offers can appeal to everyone or now one. Maybe you could go for a country feel offering great food and unique jams stuff like that. Definitely sit outside your proposed spot for a few hours at different times different days etc it will give you an idea! It's sounds good though best of luck!

Jontronix

Has anyone tried Fude Cafe in Parkwest?

msdoc

Jontronix wrote: »

Thanks for the tip, I don't know that area much at all so it hasn't really crossed my mind. My only concern with that location would be the plans for the childrens hospital to move in future.

The wheels are turning very slowly in that regard. Besides which, last I head was that that Crumlin hosptial would be kept as a teaching hospital. But I don't know anything about it. And I know even less about traffic flow for a cafe. But it could be worth your while checking out, if Clondalkin doesn't pan out.
Not wanting to put you off but always good to go in with eyes wide open
divaboutiquebakery.com/2010/04/the-hidden-costs-of-running-a-cafe-in-ireland/
slate.com/articles/life/a_fine_whine/2005/12/bitter_brew.html

NotInventedHere

There are 3 places I think you would have to consider.

1. The unit beside tescos. That is recently free
2 across the road beside Tuthills
3 the mill

There is also a unit free on the main street beside the steering wheel

Do not under any circumstances take the unit at the end of the monastery shops.

Jontronix

daviecronin wrote: »

Hello OP,
I'm nowhere near familiar with clondalkin area at all. But what I would say to you is to almost pick a target market but obviously try not to exclude anyone. But maybe target you teenagers. Is there schools nearby? Can you offer something different. I myself go to this lovely unique retro style cafe with my friends. They give you a lump of chocolate on a stick and hot frothy milk mmmmm and you get to melt it yourself. They offer free wifi, and a free chocolate with each drink. Towards the back of the premises they have around 30 computer which are nearly always packed! It's a very studenty/ unique cafe you wouldn't see much old folk in their! The interior design is different and cosy at the same time. They've a fabulous location so much footfall! Maybe it's something you want to think about who ideally do you want in your cafe. Student/college folk, young families, older friends stuff like that. What your cafe looks like and what it offers can appeal to everyone or now one. Maybe you could go for a country feel offering great food and unique jams stuff like that. Definitely sit outside your proposed spot for a few hours at different times different days etc it will give you an idea! It's sounds good though best of luck!

Thanks for your input, that cafe sounds really interesting. Do you mind me asking where it is? I know I will have to decide on a look and feel for my cafe, and I have a couple of different ideas in mind, and I will tailor these to the location I end up getting and one idea I have will not suit a certain location and vice versa.
The main thing I know is that you can't cater to everyone, we all like different things and that's why there are so many different styles of cafe and coffee shop. I will go with something that appeals to me and appeals to the target I am seeking in a certain area.

msdoc

Jontronix wrote: »

Has anyone tried Fude Cafe in Parkwest?

My husband works in Parkwest and highly rates this place. He also thought that a food truck could do well once a week if it parked up in the area. re the issue of permits etc, is it better to ask forgiveness than ask permission, if that could apply?

daviecronin

Jontronix wrote: »

Thanks for your input, that cafe sounds really interesting. Do you mind me asking where it is? I know I will have to decide on a look and feel for my cafe, and I have a couple of different ideas in mind, and I will tailor these to the location I end up getting and one idea I have will not suit a certain location and vice versa.
The main thing I know is that you can't cater to everyone, we all like different things and that's why there are so many different styles of cafe and coffee shop. I will go with something that appeals to me and appeals to the target I am seeking in a certain area.

Sorry should have mentioned it,
It's called Eco cafe, or cafe Eco something like that. It's on Winthrop street off Patricks street in cork. It's such a busy route they're so lucky they also own a restaurant/cafe in Douglas outside of cork I think! Ya it's definitely good to see who you really want to appeal to but obviously want to make everyone welcome!

Jontronix

NotInventedHere wrote: »

There are 3 places I think you would have to consider.

1. The unit beside tescos. That is recently free
2 across the road beside Tuthills
3 the mill

There is also a unit free on the main street beside the steering wheel

Do not under any circumstances take the unit at the end of the monastery shops.

1. I see that unit became available lately but I've yet to look into it. I fear it might be a bit of a barn and need huge investment to get looking anything like a cafe
2. I drove past today and saw that letting sign and will be checking it out. I thought it might be just offices for lease but perhaps it's a proper premises.
3. I had ignored The Mill up until now because I don't like the centre myself, but I can't ignore that people keep recommending it. It is definitely an area of heavy pedestrian traffic, and it has that free parking that is so rare these days.

What is the problem with the unit at Monastery?

Jontronix

msdoc wrote: »

My husband works in Parkwest and highly rates this place. He also thought that a food truck could do well once a week if it parked up in the area. re the issue of permits etc, is it better to ask forgiveness than ask permission, if that could apply?

Yeah I've heard that very line before about forgiveness over permission. I think the food truck idea would work great as long as you have the brass neck to go with it, as well as a nose for good locations of course.

I follow Fude on Twitter and the sandwiches they make sound immense but I don't know anyone who's tried them. Good to hear that someone rates it.

msdoc

A friend of mine used to run a crepe stall and she quickly realised that the money for her was in doing big events like Electric Picnic, rather than the weekly food markets, where weather might have a big affect on sales. Was walking round town with her one day when we were talking about another crepe producer which had a few cafes now. She commented that just because they had outlets around town it didn't necessarily mean that they were making money. Didn't mean that they weren't either...
Best of luck with whatever you decide to do. Would advise doing a start your own business course.

NotInventedHere

Jontronix wrote: »

What is the problem with the unit at Monastery?

Get Fresh tends to obscure it.
People don't tend to walk to these shops, myself included
Parking.
All businesses over the past 10 years have failed or moved

BTW i hate the Mill myself and feel its day is done

Jontronix

NotInventedHere wrote: »

Get Fresh tends to obscure it.
People don't tend to walk to these shops, myself included
Parking.
All businesses over the past 10 years have failed or moved

BTW i hate the Mill myself and feel its day is done

Oh yeah the little unit in the corner that is now an alarm place or something. There is always a new business in there whenever I look. I did actually call the autioneer about that a while back when it was up on the market but he wasn't interested in a food business going in there as he knew the landlord wouldn't want to wait around for someone to obtain planning permission for a food business.

JMR

I live in Clondalkin Village and work not far away and while I would personally walk to Main Street for a nice coffee at the weekend I would not drive into the village during the week for the reason that many have pointed out - parking.

Boss Hogs appears to do well because it offers what a large demographic want. Students want a chicken roll and a can of Coke at lunch time, they also seem to do well with fried breakfasts, breakfast rolls etc.
The location of Boss Hogs is pretty unbeatable though for walk by traffic.

One other person mentioned Honeycomb Bakery & Cafe in the Bawnogue Enterprise Centre. Not sure how well they do but the offering is a significant step up from Boss Hogs.
Not sure how well they would do if located in the Village as their offering would not appeal to the multitude of schoolkids that take over on weekdays and the parking facilities that they have are probably required.

Have you looked at the vacant petrol station on the Monastery Road? Not sure if it would be viable but it would allow for parking.

I believe the visitor centre at the Round Tower is to begin construction before end of 2014 and will include a coffee shop.

Best of luck, whatever you decide

Nika Bolokov

Hi,

I grew up there myself and as you know OP there are a number of Clondalkins within Clondalkin.

Your target market is the Monastery Road, Floraville, Newlands demographic probably and so Id be looking at setting up in the village.

I think that a small place that was high quality would do well. I'm thinking across from Quinlans near the Ulster Bank around that area.

During the day you would have the school kids, who at the moment have only greasy options and are way more health concious than in my day so I would see them as a market. You would also have those who live in the village and have retired but would not be seen dead in a greasy spoon on main street. So parking not really an issue.

Another option is deliveries into Parkwest and and the other older industrial esate across the road at lunch and to be honest, deliveries at any time of the day as all delivery options in Clondalkin are greasy takeaway type stuff.

Weekends would be busy as there are a lot of people milling about.

I would not go 3FE as even ordering a coffee there is confusing but somewhere nice and modern would hit the spot.

I agree with you totally that the options at present are not the best and there is a specific slice of the Clondalkin demographic that would really go for this.

I'd be there whenever Im back there for one !!!

mini cooper

Hi Jontronix

How are your plans coming along? personally would love something like this for main street Clondalkin, I would like somewhere different to get good coffee/tea cakes during the day time & even at night time, it's not all about pubs...& Clondalkin has enough of them

When the tower visitor center gets up & running there will be more tourists about wanting to socialize locally at night time also & not all in the pubs.

A lot of foreign & Irish people like the idea of ice-cafe's in Dublin city center take Murphy's ice-cream shop on wicklow street you get your coffee & tea, cakes, good quality home-made ice-creams inter-net use & somewhere to chat with some low background music? something different? what about something like this for Clondalkin Café by day ice-café by night?

Take a look at unit 3 main street, sorry cant up-load photo of it,
It used to be the old EBS building society it might interest you location wise? no parking
but right on main street, where you want to be?

or what about approaching the owners of claires pizzeria & tell them of your wish to open up a high class coffee shop & maybe merge with them as their high class coffee-cake wing of their restraint/café that you could use in daytime for your own customers when they are normally closed, you could run it for the mornings mid afternoon & they work the late afternoon-evenings? it's only a suggestion but it might just work & you also have a share of their high end customers at the same time, who like that venue to eat & socialize as there venue of choice in main street area, except now the would have more choice, getting use from it day time as well as evening & night time.


best of luck anyway

Mini-cooper

Jontronix

mini cooper wrote: »

Hi Jontronix

How are your plans coming along? personally would love something like this for main street Clondalkin, I would like somewhere different to get good coffee/tea cakes during the day time & even at night time, it's not all about pubs...& Clondalkin has enough of them

When the tower visitor center gets up & running there will be more tourists about wanting to socialize locally at night time also & not all in the pubs.

A lot of foreign & Irish people like the idea of ice-cafe's in Dublin city center take Murphy's ice-cream shop on wicklow street you get your coffee & tea, cakes, good quality home-made ice-creams inter-net use & somewhere to chat with some low background music? something different? what about something like this for Clondalkin Café by day ice-café by night?

Take a look at unit 3 main street, sorry cant up-load photo of it,
It used to be the old EBS building society it might interest you location wise? no parking
but right on main street, where you want to be?

or what about approaching the owners of claires pizzeria & tell them of your wish to open up a high class coffee shop & maybe merge with them as their high class coffee-cake wing of their restraint/café that you could use in daytime for your own customers when they are normally closed, you could run it for the mornings mid afternoon & they work the late afternoon-evenings? it's only a suggestion but it might just work & you also have a share of their high end customers at the same time, who like that venue to eat & socialize as there venue of choice in main street area, except now the would have more choice, getting use from it day time as well as evening & night time.


best of luck anyway

Mini-cooper

Hey thanks for your input, the plans are coming along nicely. I won't be opening anything until early-mid 2015 but I haven't been put off Clondalkin following any of the feedback I've received so far, if anything I am more enthused now!

The former ESB would be a great location in Clondalkin, but that site is for sale at the moment so I am hoping an investor buys that and looks to lease it. If that happens then I will certainly be interested, but that site goes back a long way so it could be very expensive. It's on my radar though.

Operating on the site of an existing business is certainly an interesting proposition, and has worked well in other parts of Dublin so I would consider it. Is Claires Pizzeria open during the day at the moment?

The ice-cream cafes are doing well in some places for sure, but I think Clondalkin just needs a good normal café at the moment. The ice-cream businesses seem to be more for areas that already have the normal café market well covered, and they are an alternative to that.

Mr.Boots

Don't know the area, but my two cents....
Cater for your market, you wouldn't sell an Armani suit in penny's and vice versa. Give your public what they want, not what you think the shod have.
Location is key. Never ever under estimate that or compromise on that.

mini cooper

Jontronix

---

Is Claires Pizzeria open during the day at the moment?

Info below taken from their Facebook page:

Clare's Italian Resturaunt is now closed for September, to allow us to finish renovation works, expanding our seating.

(Now might be a good idea to approach them with your ideas?) Good Luck

Clare's Pizzeria - the Italian Restaurant

Italian restaurant

Phone (01) 413 6003

I think manager-owners name is Kevin (keep us informed if they are open to your ideas)

Jontronix

I visited the Honeycomb Cafe yesterday and was very impressed. A lot of effort has gone into the decor and overall look of the place. The selection of house made sweet foods is top notch and it all looks delicious. I went for a turkey& brie wrap and a cappuccino. The wrap was really good but not cheap at 8 euro with a small side salad. The place was fairly busy for the after lunch time of 2.30. This experience has given me great belief that a quality café selling premium produce can flourish in Clondalkin village. Bawnogue Enterprise Centre could well be the last place I would have considered for such a venture, but I take my hat off to the owner and employees because it's a great cafe and it seems to be doing well and gathering a great reputation.