Should it be illegal to cycle while wearing headphones? On the spot fine?

Jawgap

mrty wrote: »

People in cars shouldn't be driving whilst wearing headphones its ludicrous. Nobody in charge of any vehicle should be listening to music through headphones. Motorcycle helmets are designed so your hearing is impeded as little as possible.

But motorbike helmets still impede hearing!

Also, I'm in the processor getting a new car and one attribute that's been pitched to me a few times is how quiet the cabins are - cars are increasingly designed to exclude ambient noise.

a148pro

What do cyclists lose by having earphones in? The sound of a vehicle driving badly that's going to kill them anyway? Serious question.

peneau

Deedsie wrote: »

Well a motorist has mirrors and an almost 360 view of the area surrounding his or her car... A cyclist doesn't...

People on bikes can turn their head

loinnsigh

magicbastarder wrote: »

are noise generators mandatory on electric vehicles?

Yep but the noise generator only operates below 30km/h because above that speed for ALL cars the majority of noise is road/wind noise not engine noise. So EVs are not some kind of phantom menace that will creep up on you

Deedsie

peneau wrote: »

People on bikes can turn their head

Yes, I am one of them... A lot of cyclists don't bother though, it seems the 180 in front is all that matters. Listening to music while cycling definitely impedes ability to hear any other cyclists or motorists attempting to overtake etc?

To me that is just inconsiderate of other road users...

lennymc

Jawgap wrote: »

And what about motorcyclists with their helmets - don't they impair hearing?

No, however, it is normally recommended that you wear ear plugs to prevent hearing damage due to wind noise.

bambergbike

When cycling through cold rain, snow, and winter fog, I wear a fleece cap with earflaps, and a cycling helmet on top to clamp it firmly in place. It works, I get home with toasty ears in horrendous weather. But once I'm dressed and ready to go, I can't stop for a chat with anybody - I wouldn't be able to hear it. I don't hear any wind noise at all on the bike, either - the whole world goes really quiet. I just assume that there is probably traffic coming up behind me whether I can hear any or not, and try and position myself to be visible from quite far back and predictable in my movements.

Any headphones law mooted falls short on this simple logic - when Boris Johnson had a rant about cyclists and headphones, some pictures quickly surfaced showing him wearing a hat which was as noise-insulating as any headphones to keep his ears warm. If you ban headphones because they impair hearing, you have to ban hats. That would make winter cycling a crappy experience, especially for people who wear glasses or live in places that get snow.

Distracted cycling while on a mobile phone is something I see a lot - it mainly seems to make cyclists very slow. Irritating when stuck behind them in rush hour traffic waiting for a safe overtaking opportunity, but not up really up there with the hazards of drivers playing with phones or programming satnavs or (legally but stupidly!) concentrating hard on language learning CDs or other educational or work-related audio material requiring very intense concentration.

There are so many better candidates crying out for road-safety legislation. We could set out in excruciating detail what "driving to the conditions" means, for example: if you have 50 metres visibility, you drive at not more than 50 km/h. 40 metres visibility = 40 km/h and so on. So that you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear. If the road is so narrow that you are sharing carriageway space with oncoming traffic, you need to be able to stop in half the distance you can see to be clear.

With legislation like that, even cyclists with hats and helmets and headphones and dogs and children and suitcases would feel a bit safer when they venture out on cold, dark winter evenings.

victorcarrera

Deedsie wrote: »

Should it be illegal to cycle while wearing headphones? On the spot fine?

Just wondering other people's opinions on this? Maybe start a discussion.

I think it's a bit careless and potentially very dangerous for a cyclist to be on the public road and not be focused totally on the job of cycling safely from A to B?

Legal or illegal? IMO irrelevant. The implementation of the existing (try this try that) Road Traffic Act and mostly the lack of prosecutions and deterrents for dangerous and careless driving in close proximity to cyclists is the real problem. The relevant question is is it safer? Again IMO as someone who cycles on average 10hrs a week with headphones at 80% volume, no for the following reasons.

Using headphones will not prevent me from being hit from behind or being side-swiped by an overtaking vehicle. Neither will they increase my chances of hitting something in front of me because I always have my eyes open when cycling.

I can still hear traffic approaching from behind (so what! they are in no danger from me) I just can't hear my radio in traffic.

A bicycle weighs approx 10Kgm and moves at an average of 25km/hr whereas the average car weighs 2000kgm and moves at an average of 50km/hr.
We already know who the heavyweight, high speed hitters are and I doubt cyclists wearing headphones feature to often in the statistics.

biko

There is an inherent danger yes (same for people walking around with h/p on or loud music in cars) but not enough to make it illegal.

macnab

I would never wear head phones while cycling, but that's my choice, based on my opinion.
If headphones were banned for cyclists then would you not also have to ban deaf people from cycling? or carry out random hearing tests?

victorcarrera

biko wrote: »

There is an inherent danger yes (same for people walking around with h/p on or loud music in cars) but not enough to make it illegal.

For the most part cyclists move with the flow of traffic and cross the road at junctions, pedestrians are at a greater risk because they can cross two or more lanes of traffic legally anywhere they like. Not the same at all.

Of course blaming cyclists for the use of headphones along with a myriad of other excuses for hitting, killing or injuring another person with 2000kg in broad daylight having signed licensing and insurance proposals to always drive with due care and attention and be in charge of that vehicle at all times will absolve many people in a nation where alcohol 86% and drugs 6% are abused.

No worries Paddy your motor insurance and no claims protection will look after it unless of course you are one of the 5% of drivers that have neither.

CatFromHue

Wearing headphones while cycling is similar to the whole wearing a helmet when cycling argument. Both are way down the list of important things for cyclists.

Proper lights and proper cycling etiquette/practice would be No.1 and 2 for me.

WillyFXP

CatFromHue wrote: »

Wearing headphones while cycling is similar to the whole wearing a helmet when cycling argument. Both are way down the list of important things for cyclists.

Proper lights and proper cycling etiquette/practice would be No.1 and 2 for me.

This argument is way further down than the helmet one. Every cyclist has a head, not all cyclists have hearing.

Qualitymark

The_Sub wrote: »

Why? whats the difference between that and the radio? (assuming the wire isn't getting in the way).

tbh its as futile as making high viz, helmets & lights compulsory.

trying to get all road users to behave in a sensible manner and respect each other is whats needed to make the roads safer.

Oddly, it is quite different. A couple of years ago I was walking the dog by the river while listening to a particularly riveting This American Life podcast on the Shuffle. Got into the car and decided to keep listening to it as I drove - after all, I normally listened to the radio. But I found that the earphones in the car somehow made me quite slow in my reactions. Can't understand why, but it did.

I'd actually be for making high-viz compulsory, and of course lights already are. As for helmets - well, yes, probably they should be, I suppose, hideous things that they are. Perhaps if they were compulsory more stylish ones would come on the market.

Back in the troglodytic days before headphones, I used to cycle to and from school from Dalkey to Shankill every weekday. The cycle was pretty boring, and I dreaded the schoolday, with a class full of bullying bitches and featherheads teaching it. So I'd prop whatever book I was reading on the handlebars and cycle along happily reading.

I suppose you'd want that banned too, OP, huh? Huh?

tomasrojo

Probably best to keep hi-viz and helmets to their respective mega-threads (at least, I think we have a hi-viz one; I know we have a helmet one).

On the topic at hand, making things forbidden or compulsory to reduce excessive risk-taking with one's own health or life (as opposed to endangering others) should really be a last resort. Funnily enough, road safety is one of the few areas of public life where it tends to be closer to a first resort.

beauf

Deedsie wrote: »

Well a motorist has mirrors and an almost 360 view of the area surrounding his or her car... A cyclist doesn't...

Regardless, my position on motorists being focused 100% on safely getting from A to B is the same as for cyclists. Using mobiles etc

It's a bit of a strange argument to point at the wrong doings of motorists to justify the wrong doings of cyclists

A drivers vision is much worse than a cyclists hence why so many stats relate to drivers not seeing things as the cause of accidents. You have double standards though is your ok for drivers to have music/radio but not for a cyclist if its the same safety issue. I don't think you can hear that well on a bike though with wind noise and cycling at any speed its hard to hear behind you anyway. Unless its a relatively loud noise. A good bit of my commute is off road. So I sometime listen to music there, then once I hit the roads I pop the earphones out. That's personal choice.

Considering the authorities don't enforce a lot of existing more important laws/rules. Why introduce more laws that won't be enforced, when you've not backed it up with any stats, and as such you have no way of knowing if the law (if introduced) had made it better or worse. A set of common sense guidelines might be more useful. Like check you have lights, that work, that good batteries. Etc.

beauf

Deedsie wrote: »

Yes, I am one of them... A lot of cyclists don't bother though, it seems the 180 in front is all that matters. Listening to music while cycling definitely impedes ability to hear any other cyclists or motorists attempting to overtake etc?

To me that is just inconsiderate of other road users...

If you are relying on hearing and not vision to check around you you're doing it wrong.

Pawn

Deedsie wrote: »

Should it be illegal to cycle while wearing headphones? On the spot fine?

Not really, people use it as a hands-free set rather than to listen music.

Wishbone Ash

Deedsie wrote: »

Listening to music while cycling definitely impedes ability to hear any other cyclists or motorists attempting to overtake etc?.

On any typical cycle I'm overtaken by hundreds of motorists. I don't understand what difference it makes if I hear them or not. I'm hardly going to jump into the ditch every few seconds just because I hear a vehicle approaching. It's just a constant wall of traffic noise and the onus is on the overtaking driver to carry out the manoeuvre in a safe manner. If I'm changing my road position I'll check that it is safe to do so first.

As for cyclists overtaking - that doesn't happen too often but they are difficult to hear approaching anyway. When I'm overtaking other cyclists I don't expect them to hear me approaching.

I don't use headphones when cycling anyway.

Deedsie

Qualitymark wrote: »

Oddly, it is quite different. A couple of years ago I was walking the dog by the river while listening to a particularly riveting This American Life podcast on the Shuffle. Got into the car and decided to keep listening to it as I drove - after all, I normally listened to the radio. But I found that the earphones in the car somehow made me quite slow in my reactions. Can't understand why, but it did.

I'd actually be for making high-viz compulsory, and of course lights already are. As for helmets - well, yes, probably they should be, I suppose, hideous things that they are. Perhaps if they were compulsory more stylish ones would come on the market.

Back in the troglodytic days before headphones, I used to cycle to and from school from Dalkey to Shankill every weekday. The cycle was pretty boring, and I dreaded the schoolday, with a class full of bullying bitches and featherheads teaching it. So I'd prop whatever book I was reading on the handlebars and cycle along happily reading.

I suppose you'd want that banned too, OP, huh? Huh?

Yup, and texting, phone calls while cycling (I have witnessed it many times in Dublin)... I am an awful spoil sport when it comes to safety.

I don't want to derail my own thread but I think people not wearing helmets are crazy. Is it really down to the vanity of them not looking good they don't wear them?

beauf

Deedsie wrote: »

Yup, and texting, phone calls while cycling (I have witnessed it many times in Dublin)... I am an awful spoil sport when it comes to safety.

I don't want to derail my own thread but I think people not wearing helmets are crazy. Is it really down to the vanity of them not looking good they don't wear them?

If its a safety issue then maybe you find out where in the top 20 this is.

Handsandtools

It all depends on level of volume. It can be just hands free or so. Than what about bikes, maybe make helmets illegal.
I was cycling other day and a lot of pedestrians where walking on cycling line I use my bell, but no one moved, so I presume they where with hearing problems, because non of them have earphones.

Ole Rodrigo

Headphones might look dangerous from the point of view of a motorist. If you're driving along and a cyclist with headphones swerves out, you might well blame that action on the headphones. You might not notice the pothole/ glass/pedestrian that they would have had to avoid anyway, and that the headphones had nothing to do with it.

A good driver will within reason anticipate the actions of a cyclist. If they see a car parked in the cycle lane, they will know the cyclist will probably not drive into its boot and will have to pull out into the road avoid. So the driver will in turn act to provide the necessary space for them to do so. The same goes for potholes, glass and everything else. A good driver will know these are obstacles for cyclists and provide them with space.

Macha

I listen to music while cycling. It's never been a safety issue except when a motorist tries to tell me to take them off...while I'm cycling and they're driving.

I rely far more on visuals than sound. And any accident I've been in with another vehicle wouldn't have happened any differently if I hadn't had headphones in.

Qualitymark

Macha wrote: »

I rely far more on visuals than sound. And any accident I've been in with another vehicle wouldn't have happened any differently if I hadn't had headphones in.

Accidents I've had:

• blown over by a sudden gust of wind while turning between tall buildings, faceplanted onto the sharp ridge that used to be at the top of car doors. Luckily wearing contacts not glasses, so not blinded by glass, just a nasty wound under the eye for some weeks.
  
• driver flung door of car wide open as I passed it - I was well out, but he managed to catch a pannier, which leaped off but was hooked to the frame by elastic, so I sprawled right across that busy curve approaching Ranelagh where buses sweep around; luckily no buses. "Oh, I'm awful sorry," he said.
  
• doored by passenger opening car in traffic; luckily i whipped my hand off the handlebars so didn't break my fingers, just carommed off the door and onto the road in front of a car whose driver jammed on the brakes in time.
  
• slammed in the face by a pillow swung by a kid playing "break the neck of the cyclist"; swerved right and left after it hit and cycled on.
  
• spat at by angry pedestrian as I whizzed down Dame Street one windy day; combination of the wind and my speed whipped his spittle back and it covered his own face. Will always remember the look of disgusted outrage on him.
  
• slipped sideways on a glistening manhole cover, don't know how many times until I learned to avoid them.
  
• near miss from cars as I swerved to avoid manhole covers.

None caused by earphones; I don't wear them anyway but they wouldn't have made a difference to any of these. Or helmets, though if they'd existed at the time, one might have helped when I landed flat on face and hands while holding three pound notes having been sent for the messages at 15; I was more worried about catching those £1s than retaining consciousness.

Deedsie

beauf wrote: »

If its a safety issue then maybe you find out where in the top 20 this is.

If it makes you, pedestrians and other road users (including cyclists) 1% safer then IMO it is definitely worth having a reasonable discussion on it?

I would never do it and I always wear a helmet. I can only control my behaviour on the road and encourage others to reconsider theirs... Blaming pedestrians and motorists for doing wrong as a way to justify cyclists doing wrong doesn't wash with me...

We all have personal responsibility and of course there are assholes out their that are totally oblivious as to how inconsiderate their behaviour is. I would hope that eventually the department of transport will be able to publish and updated Highway Code with regulations and recommendations on how to behave; be you a pedestrian, cyclist, motorist, bus driver etc etc

maw368

beauf wrote: »

A drivers vision is much worse than a cyclists hence why so many stats relate to drivers not seeing things as the cause of accidents. You have double standards though is your ok for drivers to have music/radio but not for a cyclist if its the same safety issue. I don't think you can hear that well on a bike though with wind noise and cycling at any speed its hard to hear behind you anyway. Unless its a relatively loud noise. A good bit of my commute is off road. So I sometime listen to music there, then once I hit the roads I pop the earphones out. That's personal choice.

Considering the authorities don't enforce a lot of existing more important laws/rules. Why introduce more laws that won't be enforced, when you've not backed it up with any stats, and as such you have no way of knowing if the law (if introduced) had made it better or worse. A set of common sense guidelines might be more useful. Like check you have lights, that work, that good batteries. Etc.

I'm the same, I'll often listen on the off road sections and take them out on the road sections, not always though. Conditions make a big difference, faster moving traffic makes me want to hear where slower moving traffic isn't as bad. But sometimes the noise generated across the ears from wind makes it impossible to hear music well sometimes, so makes hearing cars difficult until close, but riding rely on eyes more.

Don't see how anyone can say it is fine for a car to have music but not a bike because of a 360 view, everyone knows cars have blind spots, I can actually look 360 on a bike, and the main point for me is, most cyclists I know including myself are farm ore observant that cars and drive less wrecklessly because we have a lot more to lose if we crash, your car may get slightly dented by me, no drama... but my skull can be smahed quite easily by slow moving traffic, or even just being slightly knocked off but face planting a curb.

statistics show accidents between cars and cyclists, quite obviously the cyclists ends up with the fatalities a lot more often, which is my point that we are a lot more observant (not all cyclists) because we have a lot more to lose.

my main problem is actually many cars play chicken and force their way out when it is my right of way, because they know I will stop, because I am the one who will get hurt, but the problem there is most non cyclists under estimate the distances it takes to stop and time required to stop in a road bike, it's not like a mountain bike with disc brakes and chunky tyres, or like a car, if you are managing 20 mph on a road and slam road bike brakes on you are just gona slide like on ice and still smack into car, we need a good bit of distance to stop gently, it is hard to resist aqueezing brakes hard when you know you are going to crash, I have been in situations where I didn't bother with the brakes because it wasn't going to stop the collision, learnt the hard way with MTB with disc brakes when I was cut up by a aggressive motorist and I slammed brakes on full, and I just did a up and over bars landing head first on the floor.

Forever getting cut up and left in dangerous positions as a result of risky car drivers playing chicken coz they know a cyclist has NO choice but to give in to an aggressive motorist

Greenmachine

I had a lady come into the shop where I currently work looking for lights for her bike. Another lady had ran into the back of her. I don't know the full details not being there to witness it. The lady was pretty pissed about the accident naturally. As it happens she was hit by another cyclist who ran into the back of her. Clearly someone was distracted for the accident to occur. I sometimes get the impression that a large number of cyclists are completely reckless regarding their own safety. The amount of times I have seen cyclist cycling 2 abreast without lights on unlit road is unreal. I used to regularly drive a particular route in the early hours i.e between 5:30am and 6:00am. I saw it all the time.

I wouldn't drive with the stereo above a certain level in a car, but for cyclists with earphones it seems often times they have these thing at close to max speed.

Handsandtools

Deedsie wrote: »

Should it be illegal to cycle while wearing headphones? On the spot fine?

Just wondering other people's opinions on this? Maybe start a discussion.

I think it's a bit careless and potentially very dangerous for a cyclist to be on the public road and not be focused totally on the job of cycling safely from A to B?

I think that ears don't see and accidents happens due to lack of observation, hot because of earphones.

tomasrojo

Deedsie wrote: »

I don't want to derail my own thread but I think people not wearing helmets are crazy. Is it really down to the vanity of them not looking good they don't wear them?

You can read more here, plenty of voices for and against:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057030568

Sort of a quarantine area to keep the topic out of other threads.
Spoiler: it's not exclusively vanity by any means