Better Call Saul ***Spoilers***

noodler

rob316 wrote: »

I must say I really am enjoying the show. It was slow to start but has taken off over the last few episodes and I'll be disappointed when it finishes next week. I think this has got a lot of potential and could certainly run for as long as BB.

I love how they recognised another solid character in Mike was needed to support Saul. I also think they done a very good job in picking the rest of the supporting cast - Chuck in particular.

I do have a couple of question about the show though. Is a spin-off suppose to exist successfully on its own without the premise of the original show?

Say you never watched BB would you find the show as enticing? As a BB fan I don't think I would and initially don't think I would have sat down to watch it.

I don't watch every episode hoping another BB character will pop up in to it but I do have BB in the back of my mind when I'm watching it and recognise its in the same universe which helps to draw me in.

Is there many posters watching it who didn't watch BB and what do they think?

The BB following undoubtedly helped sway people into trying it but it undoubtedly stands up on its own two feet without BB for me.

Snake Plisken

It actually goes to show how Walter White destroyed these people's lives!Saul ends up in hiding, Mike ends up dead and as a consequence his grand daughter never got the cash meant to give her a better life, not to mention Walter's own family and the death of his brother in law, not sure if anyone else feels the same but I'm starting to hate Walter the more I watch Better Call Saul!

squonk

Snake Plisken wrote: »

It actually goes to show how Walter White destroyed these people's lives!Saul ends up in hiding, Mike ends up dead and as a consequence his grand daughter never got the cash meant to give her a better life, not to mention Walter's own family and the death of his brother in law, not sure if anyone else feels the same but I'm starting to hate Walter the more I watch Better Call Saul!

Yeah that's for sure. Mike's death was always a sore point for me when watching BB. That, of course, and the kid in the desert. Walter White was kind of an anti hero by the end of Breaking Bad. I personally know by the final season I was finding it harder and harder to root for him. There was still a mythos about him by the end however. I felt he was everybody's favourite bad bástard, doing the things we'd love to do in our wildest fantasies but would never have the cajones to do ever in real life.

With BCS though we can see more of the world of BB now. Walter's actions are taking on much more significance and it's pretty much deconstructing the Heisenberg mythos and starting to show Walter up for the scum lord he actually became.

I'm sorry now I didn't rewatch BB before BCS because at this stage I'll never be able to watch BB in the same way ever again.

autumnbelle

Hamlin must have promised Kim partnership if he takes the deal

Will I Amnt

autumnbelle wrote: »

Hamlin must have promised Kim partnership if he takes the deal, Chuck Im guessing rang Howard.

Pretty sure he just told her that it was Chuck preventing him from taking Jimmy on.

jcsoulinger

autumnbelle wrote: »

Hamlin must have promised Kim partnership if he takes the deal

Not lightly, he just told her it was chuck that didn't want Jimmy at HHM, She realised Jimmys hate for hamlin was misplaced and the best thing for him was to take the deal.

spiralism

Hamlin was never the bad guy, when you look at in context, all he did was shoulder the brunt of Jimmy's ire for what Chuck was orchestrating all along. In fact he's always done right by Jimmy when you look back(with the exception of breaking the news upon jimmy passing the bar, i still think chuck was behind that as well), especially given that he offered Jimmy a very fair deal for the case.

Doctor Jimbob

spiralism wrote: »

Hamlin was never the bad guy, when you look at in context, all he did was shoulder the brunt of Jimmy's ire for what Chuck was orchestrating all along. In fact he's always done right by Jimmy when you look back(with the exception of breaking the news upon jimmy passing the bar, i still think chuck was behind that as well), especially given that he offered Jimmy a very fair deal for the case.

Yeah, that last episode certainly paints him in a very different light. Even looking back at the earlier scenes between them he seems uncomfortable a lot of the time, which makes sense.

Greyjoy

I don't think Chuck's betrayal of Jimmy absolves Hamlin of being an asshole. Look at how he treated Kim over the idiot Kettlemans, how he spoke to her when she stood up for Jimmy or how he treated Chuck earlier in the series (he was happy to pawn Chuck off with a stipend instead of buying him out).

folamh

Tweej wrote: »

Can anyone remind me the relationship between Hamlin and Kim? I know she's an up-and-coming employee in his company, but they seem too personal for just that.

That interaction in Hamlin's office before he tells her to shut the door seemed pretty formal. They have informal moments, just like Hamlin and Jimmy. Just seems like the kind of dynamic you'd expect between an employer and a prominent workmate.

folamh

So is Hamlin like the Snape of this series now?

Tony EH

pwurple wrote: »

I don't think he's out to get him or anything, he acknowledges he put some hard work in, and wants to pay him accordingly. He said he just doesn't think he is a real lawyer... still sees him as Slippin' Jimmy from the old days.

Yeh this. Everyone is pissed off at Chuck for the underhanded thing he did, but we're talking about "slippin' Jimmy" here. Jimmy's as dodgy as a €3 note, we all seem to forget that because he's the main character in the show. But he's not a trustworthy character. It's clear that Chuck doesn't trust him either and while his method of scuppering Jimmy's entry into HHM was nasty, I can see why he did it.

Jimmy is an ambulance chaser extraordinaire. His focus is himself, not the client. Not that that's not the case for most layers, I'm sure, but Jimmy and his online degree, plus his nature is not something that Chucky is willing to stake his own reputation on.

Lionel Hutz has absolutely nothing on him.

wp_rathead

spiralism wrote: »

Hamlin was never the bad guy, when you look at in context, all he did was shoulder the brunt of Jimmy's ire for what Chuck was orchestrating all along. In fact he's always done right by Jimmy when you look back(with the exception of breaking the news upon jimmy passing the bar, i still think chuck was behind that as well), especially given that he offered Jimmy a very fair deal for the case.

Pretty much yes, but he was still an asshole to Kim when they lost the case earlier in the season..
As well as trying to stop Jimmy even using the name "McGill" (mind you, that highly possible was Chuck aswell now that I mention it)

rob316 wrote: »

Is there many posters watching it who didn't watch BB and what do they think?

My parents love the show, and they only saw season 1 of Breaking Bad so they have never been introduced to the Mike or Saul characters before

Tarzana2

spiralism wrote: »

Hamlin was never the bad guy

That only really became clear in the last couple of episodes though, really at the moment you see that Chuck isn't that thrilled at Jimmy passing the bar. Before then, it wasn't obvious that it was Chuck pulling the strings, not Hamlin.

Tarzana2

Greyjoy wrote: »

I don't think Chuck's betrayal of Jimmy absolves Hamlin of being an asshole. Look at how he treated Kim over the idiot Kettlemans, how he spoke to her when she stood up for Jimmy or how he treated Chuck earlier in the series (he was happy to pawn Chuck off with a stipend instead of buying him out).

True, he's still a dick.

Tarzana2

Tony EH wrote: »

Yeh this. Everyone is pissed off at Chuck for the underhanded thing he did, but we're talking about "slippin' Jimmy" here. Jimmy's as dodgy as a €3 note, we all seem to forget that because he's the main character in the show. But he's not a trustworthy character.

Yeah, there's a far less steep slide into breaking bad for Jimmy rather than Walt. We see him set up that scam to try and win the Kettlemans as clients in, what, the first episode?

Liam O

squonk wrote: »

Yeah that's for sure. Mike's death was always a sore point for me when watching BB. That, of course, and the kid in the desert. Walter White was kind of an anti hero by the end of Breaking Bad. I personally know by the final season I was finding it harder and harder to root for him. There was still a mythos about him by the end however. I felt he was everybody's favourite bad bástard, doing the things we'd love to do in our wildest fantasies but would never have the cajones to do ever in real life.

With BCS though we can see more of the world of BB now. Walter's actions are taking on much more significance and it's pretty much deconstructing the Heisenberg mythos and starting to show Walter up for the scum lord he actually became.

I'm sorry now I didn't rewatch BB before BCS because at this stage I'll never be able to watch BB in the same way ever again.

Mike was a hitman, maybe one with a code but could have easily gotten his comeuppance before that. Maybe he didn't do enough homework on Walt and let his guard down but painting him as some sort of tragic hero is a bit revisionist and devoid of realism. He was a popular character but to say he didn't deserve to die is false imo.

Tarzana2

squonk wrote: »

Yeah that's for sure. Mike's death was always a sore point for me when watching BB.

Mike is one of my favourite TV characters ever, but his death wasn't a sore point for me. He's a scumbag. An amusing one, but still a scumbag. I'm not saying it's black and white, people have shading but you can't deny scumbaggery.

Kinda like Tony Soprano. Ever so entertaining to watch, but an absolutely crap human being.

WinnyThePoo

Whilst he got a degree of an internet college. He did pass the bar. Which as I've heard is a pretty fecking difficult thing to do in any state. He did all this whilst working the mailroom. He is a hard worker.

Doctor Jimbob

Greyjoy wrote: »

I don't think Chuck's betrayal of Jimmy absolves Hamlin of being an asshole. Look at how he treated Kim over the idiot Kettlemans, how he spoke to her when she stood up for Jimmy or how he treated Chuck earlier in the series (he was happy to pawn Chuck off with a stipend instead of buying him out).

It doesn't absolve him, no, but it does shift things a bit from him being the unrepentant douchebag he's portrayed as in the earlier episodes. This makes him appear more spineless than anything else. An asshole in a different sense maybe :pac:

Tarzana2

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Whilst he got a degree of an internet college. He did pass the bar. Which as I've heard is a pretty fecking difficult thing to do in any state. He did all this whilst working the mailroom. He is a hard worker.

He's definitely a workhorse.

Tarzana2

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

It doesn't absolve him, no, but it does shift things a bit from him being the unrepentant douchebag he's portrayed as in the earlier episodes. This makes him appear more spineless than anything else. An asshole in a different sense maybe :pac:

Definitely spineless. The big greasy head on him. :pac:

Birneybau

folamh wrote: »

That interaction in Hamlin's office before he tells her to shut the door seemed pretty formal. They have informal moments, just like Hamlin and Jimmy. Just seems like the kind of dynamic you'd expect between an employer and a prominent workmate.

I thought Hamlin was going to proposition her, if she really wanted Jimmy in.

gormdubhgorm

Snake Plisken wrote: »

It actually goes to show how Walter White destroyed these people's lives!Saul ends up in hiding, Mike ends up dead and as a consequence his grand daughter never got the cash meant to give her a better life, not to mention Walter's own family and the death of his brother in law, not sure if anyone else feels the same but I'm starting to hate Walter the more I watch Better Call Saul!

Breaking Bad

I seem to remember the DEA missing one of Mike's cash boxes so it was implied that his grand-daughter did get a substantial sum of money.

-=al=-

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Breaking Bad

I seem to remember the DEA missing one of Mike's cash boxes so it was implied that his grand-daughter did get a substantial sum of money.

I thought they got all the dollas... That's good to know!

FloatingVoter

Tarzana2 wrote: »

Yeah, there's a far less steep slide into breaking bad for Jimmy rather than Walt. We see him set up that scam to try and win the Kettlemans as clients in, what, the first episode?

Walt starts the first ep of BB as a schoolteacher. He finishes the first episode in his underpants in the desert having completed his first cook with Jesse. Walt's decline and fall begins with a very rapid rise. Tuco comes and Tuco goes - season one done. Walt is murderous. Cue Gus and life is small change. Jimmy is a long way from that world.
So far Jimmy has gotten out of his depth with criminals and escaped from that trap. Now he has been betrayed by the "honest and good" brother. Just like the biblical Saul, he's at a crossroads.
Mike has already signposted in a separate segment that you can be good man and a criminal. Only if you keep your word. As Dylan said "to live outside the law you must be honest".
He's not yet met his devil who'll tempt him over - but he's a button push away.

HivemindXX

Custardpi wrote: »

Kim already knows the provenance of Jimmy's degree. She opened his results letter. It's a technically legit degree, just not a particularly good one.

I agree that there is no reason to think that Kim doesn't know about Jimmy's correspondence school law degree but actually the letter was Jimmy's bar exam results which is a different thing altogether.

Tarzana2

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Walt starts the first ep of BB as a schoolteacher. He finishes the first episode in his underpants in the desert having completed his first cook with Jesse.

We quickly learn that Jimmy was dodgy going way back though. And his general demeanour makes it a less compelling slide, IMO. Walt was grounded, living a beige suburban life, another drone barely getting by. Jimmy is also barely getting by but in much more murky, downmarket surroundings.

FloatingVoter

Tarzana2 wrote: »

We quickly learn that Jimmy was dodgy going way back though. And his general demeanour makes it a less compelling slide, IMO. Walt was grounded, living a beige suburban life, another drone barely getting by. Jimmy is also barely getting by but in much more murky, downmarket surroundings.

Agreed. BB had an hour to establish itself. No automatic season renewals for a low rated filler show (destined to be a classic). BCS can take its time. I'm enjoying the story arc of a man we know could get Hitler off the hook defending helpless old people against all odds. The fact that they haven't introduced trafficking, mass murder, and psychopath of the week means this is a well thought out series - not the money making racket I feared it could become.
Both Jimmy and Mike are on a journey - we know the ending but not the route.

Tarzana2

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Both Jimmy and Mike are on a journey - we know the ending but not the route.

I hope that journey gives the show legs rather than restricting it, time will tell!