Government to reverse some Public Secor Pay cuts

kippy

chopper6 wrote: »

Who says they cant afford it?

Paying thousands of people to sit on their arses all day as well giving them free houses makes a lot less sense to me.

Or the thousands of "refugees" being housed at the states expense in places like Mosney and hotels up and down the country...who's paying the 300 million a year it costs?

What about the non-means tested childrens allowance hat anybody can get regardless of their level of need?

Free third level education so wasters can hang out in college forever studying nonsense?

The PS in this country are doing a job of work,we took a disproportionate amount of pain and it's time we had the paycuts reversed..and they WILL be reversed despite what the armchair economists on here think.


I don't see these people picketing pubs charging 7 euro a pint or the crèches that charge 100 euro per day per child..


As I said before...most of this "for the good of the country" bullshiit is just jealousy from people who backed the wrong horse when it came to choosing their career...OR the thousands who weren't good enough to be selected for employment by the PS and now have a chip on their shoulders.

200Billion in dept, fiscal deficit of close to 9 billion this year say they can't afford it. That coupled with salary comparisons with irish private sector and indeed other public sector wages across the globe.

kippy

chopper6 wrote: »

Not "pay increases" and not "pay rises".

An agreed upon restoration of pay cuts.

A year or two back people were demanding pay cuts and when they occurred they were refusing to admit that they were pay cuts at all.

Now that the Govt is talking about restoring the cuts they are being referred to as "pay rises".


Unbelievable.

An agreed upon restoration of pay cuts, should in my opinion, not happen until the budget deficit is close to 0 percent and the national debt repayments are close to what they were in circa 2008........

chopper6

kippy wrote: »

An agreed upon restoration of pay cuts, should in my opinion, not happen until the budget deficit is close to 0 percent and the national debt repayments are close to what they were in circa 2008........

3% is close to 0 %.

kippy

chopper6 wrote: »

3% is close to 0 %.

And the national debt repayments?

Idbatterim

Who says they cant afford it?

Paying thousands of people to sit on their arses all day as well giving them free houses makes a lot less sense to me.

Or the thousands of "refugees" being housed at the states expense in places like Mosney and hotels up and down the country...who's paying the 300 million a year it costs?

What about the non-means tested childrens allowance hat anybody can get regardless of their level of need?

Free third level education so wasters can hang out in college forever studying nonsense?

The PS in this country are doing a job of work,we took a disproportionate amount of pain and it's time we had the paycuts reversed..and they WILL be reversed despite what the armchair economists on here think.

Nail on the head here, public or private sector, we are all workers and our taxes are going to fund the welfare wonderland welfare system! I have just gotten notice of a rent increase in Dublin, people are really struggling, where is the great welfare system for me? for over 10 years I have paid in, not gotten a bloody cent back out of it, yet you can have never contributed anything to it and take it and the tax payer for a bloody ride!

My gf is a public sector worker in the Uk, would have voted Labour obviously. They really are on low wages over there in comparison with here. She is a social worker, so I asked her do you not see a contradiction with Labour there on the one side trying to claim they are representing you and on the other hand maintaining welfare rates (thus necessitating) cuts to her salary. I also asked her in all her years of social work and throwing money at it, why we still are where we are... If throwing money were the solution to everything, Ireland would be worldclass in every area, which we certainly arent.

the problem with Labour is they actually create problems, they disincentivise work and those who need to be given a hand up and not out and break the culture of opting out, as its all they know. They are going to get a piece of my mind when I see them out canvassing at election time, thats for sure!

At least FG dont pretend to be anything to everyone! I will gladly be worse off financially before I would vote FF in to do another boom bust special, the snakes!

Riskymove

kippy wrote: »

An agreed upon restoration of pay cuts, should in my opinion, not happen until the budget deficit is close to 0 percent and the national debt repayments are close to what they were in circa 2008........

and what else should be contingent on these criteria?

kippy

Riskymove wrote: »

and what else should be contingent on these criteria?

What do you mean?
Tax cuts etc?

Riskymove

kippy wrote: »

What do you mean?
Tax cuts etc?

anything else about government income and expenditure

kippy

Riskymove wrote: »

anything else about government income and expenditure

Well I think the states finances are in an absolute mess at the moment try arguing against that- None moreso on the debt side of things.
As I have mentioned on another post, possibly in this thread, reducing this debt, through whatever mans possible should be a key priority as it will get picked up by our kids and their kids otherwise (heading that way now tbf).

There are a lot of potentential pitfalls ahead for the state on the financial side which I don't believe have been allowed for or factored in.

I don't beleive it is benefical to the ste to increase the salaries of one sector (the one they directly control) when in this position and particularily when I believe that there are still cost savings to be made in the area.

chopper6

kippy wrote: »

Well I think the states finances are in an absolute mess at the moment try arguing against that- None moreso on the debt side of things.
As I have mentioned on another post, possibly in this thread, reducing this debt, through whatever mans possible should be a key priority as it will get picked up by our kids and their kids otherwise (heading that way now tbf).

There are a lot of potentential pitfalls ahead for the state on the financial side which I don't believe have been allowed for or factored in.

I don't beleive it is benefical to the ste to increase the salaries of one sector (the one they directly control) when in this position and particularily when I believe that there are still cost savings to be made in the area.

So this is an opinion piece without a shred of evidence to back up what you believe and don't believe.


You don't work in the Public Sector and you're not involved in the partnership process and nor are you an economist so where do you get your opinions from?

My guess (yes,an opinion) would be the Independent..am I right?

kippy

chopper6 wrote: »

So this is an opinion piece without a shred of evidence to back up what you believe and don't believe.


You don't work in the Public Sector and you're not involved in the partnership process and nor are you an economist so where do you get your opinions from?

My guess (yes,an opinion) would be the Independent..am I right?

It's the same as pretty much anything you post, except my opinions are backed by fact and are generated from a number of sources.
You don't believe the states finances are in the a very very bad way?
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/government-debt-to-gdp
http://www.ntma.ie/business-areas/funding-and-debt-management/debt-profile/
The state are currently borrowing 650 odd million a month, down a lot but still increasing the overall debt.
Countless sources can back all of this up.........

You've no idea where I work, what my background is etc etc etc.

I can tell you the main thing I am concerned about is passing on all of this crap to my kids and their kids and their kids - for the sake of 4-5 years letting the country get out of control.

Sadly from what I can tell, it looks like we've learned nothing.

barneystinson

chopper6 wrote: »

So this is an opinion piece without a shred of evidence to back up what you believe and don't believe.


You don't work in the Public Sector and you're not involved in the partnership process and nor are you an economist so where do you get your opinions from?

My guess (yes,an opinion) would be the Independent..am I right?

Surely everyone's entitled to their opinions here, wherever they get them from - you at one end of the spectrum, Fliball at the other, and most of the rest of us somewhere in between...

If no-one was allowed have an opinion without producing their academic credentials there'd be tumbleweed in here, and neither you nor I would be posting here either!

In my opinion, there's no question but that underperformance isn't managed well enough in the PS, primarily due to the strength of the PS unions which protect the lazy few to the detriment of the majority of good workers.

A situation where virtually everyone gets awarded their increment does discredit the system we are paid under. Peer review by one's colleagues/subordinates might be a good idea. Or the facility to withhold an increment for a short period of time, say 3 months, while giving a person a chance to show an improvement, might also help - at the moment denying a person their increment is so exceptional and extreme managers shy away from it, but if they could simply say here's a 3 month window for you to pull up your performance, it would be used a lot more than the nuclear option.

chopper6

kippy wrote: »

It's the same as pretty much anything you post, except my opinions are backed by fact and are generated from a number of sources.
You don't believe the states finances are in the a very very bad way?
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/government-debt-to-gdp
http://www.ntma.ie/business-areas/funding-and-debt-management/debt-profile/
The state are currently borrowing 650 odd million a month, down a lot but still increasing the overall debt.
Countless sources can back all of this up.........

You've no idea where I work, what my background is etc etc etc.

I can tell you the main thing I am concerned about is passing on all of this crap to my kids and their kids and their kids - for the sake of 4-5 years letting the country get out of control.

Sadly from what I can tell, it looks like we've learned nothing.

A few web sources thrown up to back up your opinions.

At least you didn't quote the Indo in fairness.

But then I *do* se you're based in Galway.

Neither the banks,the Govt,the PS or the private sector have any meaningful prescence there.

The economy is based in Dublin,the Govt is based in Dublin,the PS is based in Dublin and the population of this country is based in Dublin.

The recovery will be based in Dublin.

Yet the regions get new roads that nobody every uses,hotels nobody every stays in and grants for meaningless projects that nobody will every avail of.

And as you say,we are borrowing to keep this happening when neither the population nor the potential for growth makes this feasible...a modern,educated and well-remunerated PS and private sector is losing out as money-pits lke Galway and Cork are sapping our financial resources.

Just a thought.

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

I'd imagine he would not only grab it both hands but sell out everybody else if necessary..."Pull the ladder up"

Oh like the public servants did with new entrants...do you want to be the pot or kettle in that statement

noodler

chopper6 wrote: »

A few web sources thrown up to back up your opinions.

At least you didn't quote the Indo in fairness.

But then I *do* se you're based in Galway.

Neither the banks,the Govt,the PS or the private sector have any meaningful prescence there.

The economy is based in Dublin,the Govt is based in Dublin,the PS is based in Dublin and the population of this country is based in Dublin.

The recovery will be based in Dublin.

Yet the regions get new roads that nobody every uses,hotels nobody every stays in and grants for meaningless projects that nobody will every avail of.

And as you say,we are borrowing to keep this happening when neither the population nor the potential for growth makes this feasible...a modern,educated and well-remunerated PS and private sector is losing out as money-pits lke Galway and Cork are sapping our financial resources.

Just a thought.

Wow.


An entire post where you resort to attacking the poster's location rather than address the issue.

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

You keep changing history, here is the exchange of posts:









Now, you have said that FG will not be for "it" which can only refer to "promising to examine and restore pay for at least some public servants" which is the post you quoted, and that is different to what you are now saying.

Godge it fits in to what I am saying the G.E in 2016 we will not be out of the mire or still borrowing so anyone stating Ps pay rises above increments will not be getting anything from me.

FG would be crazy to give this back in the same year as charging everyone else water. Look at all of my posts

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

Godge it fits in to what I am saying the G.E in 2016 we will not be out of the mire or still borrowing so anyone stating Ps pay rises above increments will not be getting anything from me.

FG would be crazy to give this back in the same year as charging everyone else water. Look at all of my posts

But the general election will be about the policy for the following five years, so of course, FG will be promising to reverse the cuts.

Godge

kippy wrote: »

An agreed upon restoration of pay cuts, should in my opinion, not happen until the budget deficit is close to 0 percent and the national debt repayments are close to what they were in circa 2008........

Neither your opinion nor my opinion will matter.

The legislation provides for the restoration of the pay cuts once the financial emergency is over. That will be judged as when the deficit hits 3% which is the target set by those who oversaw the recovery.

Once the deficit drops below 3%, the only question is when exactly and how much.

kippy

chopper6 wrote: »

A few web sources thrown up to back up your opinions.

At least you didn't quote the Indo in fairness.

But then I *do* se you're based in Galway.

Neither the banks,the Govt,the PS or the private sector have any meaningful prescence there.

The economy is based in Dublin,the Govt is based in Dublin,the PS is based in Dublin and the population of this country is based in Dublin.

The recovery will be based in Dublin.

Yet the regions get new roads that nobody every uses,hotels nobody every stays in and grants for meaningless projects that nobody will every avail of.

And as you say,we are borrowing to keep this happening when neither the population nor the potential for growth makes this feasible...a modern,educated and well-remunerated PS and private sector is losing out as money-pits lke Galway and Cork are sapping our financial resources.

Just a thought.

What does where it says on my profile that I am based have anything to do with anything? Talk about straw man arguments.......


Are you actualy saying that the figures on our national debt are incorrect and we don't owe anything at all?
There are countless sources out there that back up my national debt figures.

I have no issues with paying people, the PS are generally paid pretty well in the whole scheme of things and generally have decent terms and conditions.

kippy

Godge wrote: »

Neither your opinion nor my opinion will matter.

The legislation provides for the restoration of the pay cuts once the financial emergency is over. That will be judged as when the deficit hits 3% which is the target set by those who oversaw the recovery.

Once the deficit drops below 3%, the only question is when exactly and how much.

The legislation can be reviewed and changed at the drop of a hat - in the same way that it was initially brought in.

Do you believe it is a good thing to increase spending on one relatively small sector of society when:
1. There are still efficiencies to be made in the sector.
2. The national debt it at the crazy level that it is now.
3. Borrowing continues at a strong pace.
4. The fundamentals in the economy are not pointing to any kind of a recovery.

Godge

kippy wrote: »

The legislation can be reviewed and changed at the drop of a hat - in the same way that it was initially brought in.

Do you believe it is a good thing to increase spending on one relatively small sector of society when:
1. There are still efficiencies to be made in the sector.
2. The national debt it at the crazy level that it is now.
3. Borrowing continues at a strong pace.
4. The fundamentals in the economy are not pointing to any kind of a recovery.

It doesn't matter what I think, or what my opinion is on whether all or some or none of the public sector are overpaid or underpaid, what matters is what is in the legislation and what was committed to in the Dail at the time the legislation was passed and what the courts would say in the event that a union brought a challenge.

The main thing here is that in imposing pay cuts the Government breached contract law, a very serious step, justified by a temporary financial emergency. When the financial emergency is over, that excuse for breaking contract law does not stand up. Once money is available (and we can argue as to when that is, this year's financials are surprisingly very very strong) the money has to be given back.

And oh, it is not just public servants, pharmacists and farmers and anyone who had their fee cut will have a claim as well.

barneystinson

kippy wrote: »

The legislation can be reviewed and changed at the drop of a hat - in the same way that it was initially brought in.

Do you believe it is a good thing to increase spending on one relatively small sector of society when:
1. There are still efficiencies to be made in the sector.
2. The national debt it at the crazy level that it is now.
3. Borrowing continues at a strong pace.
4. The fundamentals in the economy are not pointing to any kind of a recovery.

If they renege on the agreed upon restoration, or legislate any further to facilitate doing so, there would be widespread industrial action.

They pushed the PS workers to the edge with Haddington Road, and if it's not honoured despite the budget deficit having been reined in as intended, then the country will brought to a standstill by the PS unions.

EDIT: What I'm saying is that certainty, and its associated cost, needs to be a factor in the decision. Cost vs benefit. You effectively dismantle the social partnership system, and risk making the whole public sector very difficult to administer and deal with for a generation, as there will be no goodwill or trust.

Tiger Mcilroy

Am i missing the part that the country is nowhere even close to being solvent again, the logic to increase spending at this stage of a "recovery" is absolutely bonkers.

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

But the general election will be about the policy for the following five years, so of course, FG will be promising to reverse the cuts.

Yes but this will start (as we can already see) well before 2016, as I say and I am on the record as saying so..payrises can start again once we are no longer borrowing and after some cuts for tax payers..

kippy

Godge wrote: »

It doesn't matter what I think, or what my opinion is on whether all or some or none of the public sector are overpaid or underpaid, what matters is what is in the legislation and what was committed to in the Dail at the time the legislation was passed and what the courts would say in the event that a union brought a challenge.

The main thing here is that in imposing pay cuts the Government breached contract law, a very serious step, justified by a temporary financial emergency. When the financial emergency is over, that excuse for breaking contract law does not stand up. Once money is available (and we can argue as to when that is, this year's financials are surprisingly very very strong) the money has to be given back.

And oh, it is not just public servants, pharmacists and farmers and anyone who had their fee cut will have a claim as well.

The financial emergency is far from being over.

kippy

barneystinson wrote: »

If they renege on the agreed upon restoration, or legislate any further to facilitate doing so, there would be widespread industrial action.

They pushed the PS workers to the edge with Haddington Road, and if it's not honoured despite the budget deficit having been reined in as intended, then the country will brought to a standstill by the PS unions.

EDIT: What I'm saying is that certainty, and its associated cost, needs to be a factor in the decision. Cost vs benefit. You effectively dismantle the social partnership system, and risk making the whole public sector very difficult to administer and deal with for a generation, as there will be no goodwill or trust.

Look. The PS unions have been all but broken at this point.

Head The Wall

Godge wrote: »

The main thing here is that in imposing pay cuts the Government breached contract law, a very serious step, justified by a temporary financial emergency. When the financial emergency is over, that excuse for breaking contract law does not stand up.

Can you tell us what this statute/contract law that the government supposedly broke is

barneystinson

kippy wrote: »

Look. The PS unions have been all but broken at this point.

How so? Just because they accepted the financial reality when the govt weren't actually in control of our finances?

kippy

barneystinson wrote: »

How so? Just because they accepted the financial reality when the govt weren't actually in control of our finances?

The government aren't in control of our finances now either, the international bond markets are and indeed the IMF reviews go on for some time yet.
How do you think increasing expenditure on public sector wages will effect credit ratings, bond prices, and the IMF's reviews going forward, in a time of deficits huge debt and a mortgage crisis that hasnt even started yet in some ways.

The Unions had plenty choice but thankfully the members saw the reality. That reality hasnt changed.

Sheldons Brain

kippy wrote: »

The government aren't in control of our finances now either, the international bond markets are and indeed the IMF reviews go on for some time yet.
How do you think increasing expenditure on public sector wages will effect credit ratings, bond prices, and the IMF's reviews going forward, in a time of deficits huge debt and a mortgage crisis that hasnt even started yet in some ways.
.

No doubt the normalisation of things will help further increase confidence in the Bond markets.