America as a whole expected to take responcibility for US torture methods after 9.11

renegademaster

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I assure you if I had one I would be a very very Rich Man.

some are very very rich and getting richer out of it never sorting itself out over there, perpetual war = big profits

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

I said a lot more than that . what would you suggest we do ? More of the same ?

Well I have said I don't know, But abandoning people to their own devices will just be bad form. A lot of people in them regions would rather US/Uk forces around the area than having the Taliban or ISIS going around. A lot of people are stuck and just want it all to stop. Would you just abandon them to Ultra radical groups ? What about their human rights ? Is it right just to abandon them.

Rightwing

America, like Britain before them, and like Rome before them are responsible for so much of what's wrong in the world. Sooner they go bankrupt the better.

Frank Lee Midere

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I see so ISIS Al-Qaeda and all them other militant groups are figments of our imagination ? These groups are a danger to the regions their in, I agree their abilities to wage war in the west is pretty weak. But are you saying just leave them to it and kill, torture, maim anyone they come across they deem not to support their cause ?

You know what that Iraq place needs more than anything else? A strong armed secular dictator

Frank Lee Midere

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Well I have said I don't know, But abandoning people to their own devices will just be bad form. A lot of people in them regions would rather US/Uk forces around the area than having the Taliban or ISIS going around. A lot of people are stuck and just want it all to stop. Would you just abandon them to Ultra radical groups ? What about their human rights ? Is it right just to abandon them.

For ****'s sake. ISIS wouldn't have a chance under saddam. Invade a place to kill the very bad man and then keep invading it to stop other very bad men.

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Well I have said I don't know, But abandoning people to their own devices will just be bad form. A lot of people in them regions would rather US/Uk forces around the area than having the Taliban or ISIS going around. A lot of people are stuck and just want it all to stop. Would you just abandon them to Ultra radical groups ? What about their human rights ? Is it right just to abandon them.

Just listen to what you are saying ! 'abandoning them will be just bad form ' ! It is a wonder you don't hearken back 'to taking up the White man's burden'.

Was in Ghandi (or Ben Kingsley ) who said 'there is no people on earth who would not prefer their own bad government to the good government of an alien power'.

It is time to consign Kipling, Jenkin's ear, and gunboats and all that jingoistic rubbish to history and tried actually behaving as befits the 21st century.

Sooner or later we will leave anyway and what will be will be. Better to find effective ways to mitigate the humanitarian disaster.

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

Just listen to what you are saying ! 'abandoning them will be just bad form ' ! It is a wonder you don't hearken back 'to taking up the White man's burden'.

Was in Ghandi (or Ben Kingsley ) who said 'there is no people on earth who would not prefer their own bad government to the good government of an alien power'.

It is time to consign Kipling, Jenkin's ear, and gunboats and all that jingoistic rubbish to history and tried actually behaving as befits the 21st century.

Sooner or later we will leave anyway and what will be will be. Better to find effective ways to mitigate the humanitarian disaster.

So why help anyone then ? We as a Nation give loads to the 3rd world and loads of other places. Should we just say "Sorry lads, It's your own fault for having a bad government ?".

Rightwing

marienbad wrote: »

Just listen to what you are saying ! 'abandoning them will be just bad form ' ! It is a wonder you don't hearken back 'to taking up the White man's burden'.

Was in Ghandi (or Ben Kingsley ) who said 'there is no people on earth who would not prefer their own bad government to the good government of an alien power'.

It is time to consign Kipling, Jenkin's ear, and gunboats and all that jingoistic rubbish to history and tried actually behaving as befits the 21st century.

Sooner or later we will leave anyway and what will be will be. Better to find effective ways to mitigate the humanitarian disaster.

Well the initial and critical mistake was invading Iraq in the first place. There really is an obligation on America. You can't just go in, thrash a place, and then leave because you are almost bankrupt and tell the people 'it's up to you now, we've done our bit'

You haven't done your bit, very far from it.

end of the road

look, the west cannot bomb away the issues of the middle east or anywhere, the sooner people learn that the better

marienbad

Rightwing wrote: »

Well the initial and critical mistake was invading Iraq in the first place. There really is an obligation on America. You can't just go in, thrash a place, and then leave because you are almost bankrupt and tell the people 'it's up to you now, we've done our bit'

You haven't done your bit, very far from it.

You can go back a lot further than that ,but that would be a good starting point at this stage.

Rightwing

marienbad wrote: »

You can go back a lot further than that ,but that would be a good starting point at this stage.

Indeed, the region is a minefield, and has been over the millenia. Western governments must not get involved unless they have a solution and a solution that they are prepared to go the whole way with.

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So why help anyone then ? We as a Nation give loads to the 3rd world and loads of other places. Should we just say "Sorry lads, It's your own fault for having a bad government ?".

So why help anyone you say ! Are you contending that the last 20 years were helping someone ? If we just stopped and did nothing that would be an improvement .

And instead of giving loads to the 3rd world ( usually with monumental strings attached) we should just pay them a fair price for their produce and labour and see how far that gets us before we decide on the next step.

Rightwing

marienbad wrote: »

So why help anyone you say ! Are you contending that the last 20 years were helping someone ? If we just stopped and did nothing that would be an improvement .

And instead of giving loads to the 3rd world ( usually with monumental strings attached) we should just pay them a fair price for their produce and labour and see how far that gets us before we decide on the next step.

West is very selective in who it helps. Israel quickly springs to mind.

But now we don't want Russia helping anyone!

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

So why help anyone you say ! Are you contending that the last 20 years were helping someone ? If we just stopped and did nothing that would be an improvement .

And instead of giving loads to the 3rd world ( usually with monumental strings attached) we should just pay them a fair price for their produce and labour and see how far that gets us before we decide on the next step.

You will find, They set the price with their race to the bottom to undercut each other to get western Business. Not saying the west is blameless, We went looking for cheap production. Paying a fair price would only lead to the plant owner's mill owners getting massively more rich. Little government intervention, Well they do intervene when they have to when buildings fall down. China is now exploiting Africa how do you stop that ? Their not part of the west. It's not as easy as just blaming the west for all the worlds problems.

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You will find, They set the price with their race to the bottom to undercut each other to get western Business. Not saying the west is blameless, We went looking for cheap production. Paying a fair price would only lead to the plant owner's mill owners getting massively more rich. Little government intervention, Well they do intervene when they have to when buildings fall down. China is now exploiting Africa how do you stop that ? Their not part of the west. It's not as easy as just blaming the west for all the worlds problems.

I am not blaming the west for all the world's ills , in fact I would be very pro American in the great scheme of things . But the last 20 or so years have been an unmitigated disaster and we are left with a situation infinitely worse that it was .

And that is saying something when what it was was Saddam.

Frank Lee Midere

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You will find, They set the price with their race to the bottom to undercut each other to get western Business. Not saying the west is blameless, We went looking for cheap production. Paying a fair price would only lead to the plant owner's mill owners getting massively more rich. Little government intervention, Well they do intervene when they have to when buildings fall down. China is now exploiting Africa how do you stop that ? Their not part of the west. It's not as easy as just blaming the west for all the worlds problems.

Who is blaming "the west".

You mentioned ISIS in Iraq and how somebody should "do something".

Here's what we should do. Go back in time and stop the deposal of saddam, in a war supported by the kind of half wits who think the US should now intervene again.

So f you have a time machine , do that. If not - duck off.

lazybones32

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

You know what that Iraq place needs more than anything else? A strong armed secular dictator

Most definitely YES! The bleeding heart brigade can try insert democracy all they want but an iron-fist will be accepted and respected more than an understanding heart everyday...

renegademaster

lazybones32 wrote: »

Most definitely YES! The bleeding heart brigade can try insert democracy all they want but an iron-fist will be accepted and respected more than an understanding heart everyday...

for the west to be an understanding heart their heart would have to be in the right place as the enter these missions, the corruption is plain for those wh want to see it when biden, cheney, clinton and co. get to divvy up contracts through their networks. i think people would welcome them with open arms if it wasn't for all the pilliging of the peoples natural resources

the_syco

renegademaster wrote: »

the bbc and many other new outlets are carrying the same story, i just chose to put up the rt.com link myself, google away for other sources if ya need to, they're all carrying the very same story/video

Oh, I'm not doubting it, I just find pot calling kettle black humourous.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

The guys who are being water boarded are doing far far far worse to their hostages.

Bleh. Torture is a fairly ineffective way of intel gathering, as you don't really know if the intel is true or not.

marienbad wrote: »

What is your solution then ?

Install barbaric (to it's own people) puppet government, create revolution, fund the "new" good guys, and call it a win for "democracy"?

end of the road wrote: »

murika isn't bringing "freedom and democracy" to saudi, wonder why that is

The saudis know who to back for presidency in the USA?

lazybones32

renegademaster wrote: »

for the west to be an understanding heart their heart would have to be in the right place as the enter these missions, the corruption is plain for those wh want to see it when biden, cheney, clinton and co. get to divvy up contracts through their networks. i think people would welcome them with open arms if it wasn't for all the pilliging of the peoples natural resources

Since you mentioned natural resources... While researching investment opportunities some time back, I learned that Syria had nearly perfected the distillation process of their significant oil-shale reserves, which would have given them access to +1 Billion barrels of oil. Within 4 months, Civil War broke out. Coincidence?, maybe...

renegademaster

the_syco wrote: »

Oh, I'm not doubting it, I just find pot calling kettle black humourous.

i find nothing humourous about the sickening truth coming out about our world armies, secret and not so secret agencies anymore, mercenaries and the corrupt ba$tards in control of and profiting heavily from it all!

darkpagandeath

lazybones32 wrote: »

Since you mentioned natural resources... While researching investment opportunities some time back, I learned that Syria had nearly perfected the distillation process of their significant oil-shale reserves, which would have given them access to +1 Billion barrels of oil. Within 4 months, Civil War broke out. Coincidence?, maybe...

When do you stop counting on that kind of stuff, Could be 6,8,10,24. Its just that a coincidence.

partyguinness

On mature reflection, Saddam Hussain should have been given the Nobel Peace Prize for the trojan work he did in keeping that place under wraps. Maybe we were a little hasty in knocking him off? Keeping in prison for 10 years and reinstating him would have been the mother of all comebacks..

Can we award posthumously? Afterall we gave it to David Trimble and Kissenger.

Sisko

OP, the amount of Americans I've heard of that have made the below point:

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I See Op, In your world of sunshine and lollypops were terrorists run into building with exploding candy vests all you have to do is ask them about things and they will tell you. I don't agree with torture, but sometimes extraordinary measures are needed on such fanatical people. And before we go the whole, But the innocent people, Well that is unfortunate but even in the worlds justice systems innocent people get put in jail and arrested and so on. The world is not perfect by any stretch.

And when your protesting on your nice safe western streets, Why don’t you go to the places these guys are from that hate the west. You will be lifted fairly quickly just seen as another westerner, They could not care less if you supported them. You would be used as a bargaining chip/hostage or in one of them videos they make.

So yeah, America as a whole should take responsibility because they allowed it to happen. What are you annoyed about?

darkpagandeath

Sisko wrote: »

OP, the amount of Americans I've heard of that have made the below point:







So yeah, America as a whole should take responsibility because they allowed it to happen. What are you annoyed about?

Being called an American. :pac:

Sisko

I did not think you were American, just talking about the point you made.


America voted Bush in twice. They got what they voted for.

renegademaster

Sisko wrote: »

I did not think you were American, just talking about the point you made.


America voted Bush in twice. They got what they voted for.

voting is your evidence of acceptence? you need to take a long hard look at the last few elections in the united stasi of america! the way they vote, the money, lies, propaganda etc thaty goes into it over there and then blame the people.

look, if the sheep get lost who do you blame, the sheep or the shepard?

I am pie

A disturbing amount of world conflicts are caused by poiliticians drawing lines on maps, mostly after winning wars. The middle east and Africa are fairly solid examples of this.

After borders are imposed and imaginary countries created, people usually get killed and tortured by all sides.

jimgoose

Nodin wrote: »

Not seeing any conspiracy in that. The fact is that torture was instigated by Dick Cheney and his staff, aided and abetted by others in the Bush Government. Personally I would have thought they should take the blame and not the American people.

This. Cheney is a lunatic, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz a brace of scheming, amoral sociopaths, Karl Rove the most frankly terrifying creature I've ever encountered outside of Sci-Fi, and George W. Bush an empty vessel.

darkpagandeath

renegademaster wrote: »

voting is your evidence of acceptence? you need to take a long hard look at the last few elections in the united stasi of america! the way they vote, the money, lies, propaganda etc thaty goes into it over there and then blame the people.

look, if the sheep get lost who do you blame, the sheep or the shepard?

Exactly 2 party system, what happens when you don't like either and have to chose between the best of 2 evils ? Not any better here, Vote for the guys who ruined the country, vote for the guys who helped, vote for the guys who let it happen, vote for some randomers that will never agree with each other.