America as a whole expected to take responcibility for US torture methods after 9.11

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I See Op, In your world of sunshine and lollypops were terrorists run into building with exploding candy vests all you have to do is ask them about things and they will tell you. I don't agree with torture, but sometimes extraordinary measures are needed on such fanatical people. And before we go the whole, But the innocent people, Well that is unfortunate but even in the worlds justice systems innocent people get put in jail and arrested and so on. The world is not perfect by any stretch.

And when your protesting on your nice safe western streets, Why don’t you go to the places these guys are from that hate the west. You will be lifted fairly quickly just seen as another westerner, They could not care less if you supported them. You would be used as a bargaining chip/hostage or in one of them videos they make.

I am amazed that people still trot out this kind of Chuck Norris rubbish .

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

I am amazed that people still trot out this kind of Chuck Norris rubbish .

You mean people that actually live in the Real world ? I already said torture is wrong. The guys who are being water boarded are doing far far far worse to their hostages.

Tin Foil Hat

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean people that actually live in the Real world ? I already said torture is wrong.

But not wrong enough to not do it?

renegademaster

marienbad wrote: »

I am amazed that people still trot out this kind of Chuck Norris rubbish .

it's beyond belief alright and all these wars are enabled due to this level of mass ignorance!!

Grandpa Hassan

renegademaster wrote: »

he also stated the nation as a whole needs to now take responcibility for the actions so they hopefully won't happen again in the future.

let nobody forget that in 3 months between Jan and mid Mar 2003 up to 36,000,000 people protested at 3000 protests (worldwide!!) against the Iraq/Afghan invasion!!

I was living in America for another couple of years after 9/11 and the population was overwhelmingly in support of the invasion of Iraq, and to do whatever it took to destroy bin laden et al. The fact that opinion shifted in the US a number of years later should not clould the fact that if torture was needed in the post 9/11 world, the US public was behind it. The mood was to do whatever it took to take out Al Qaeda

partyguinness

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean people that actually live in the Real world ? I already said torture is wrong. The guys who are being water boarded are doing far far far worse to there hostages.

We hear you Jack Baur...we are only alive because people like you in the real world let us live in our nice comfortable lives...thank you and God bless..:)

mikeyjames9

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I See Op, In your world of sunshine and lollypops were terrorists run into building with exploding candy vests all you have to do is ask them about things and they will tell you. I don't agree with torture, but sometimes extraordinary measures are needed on such fanatical people. And before we go the whole, But the innocent people, Well that is unfortunate but even in the worlds justice systems innocent people get put in jail and arrested and so on. The world is not perfect by any stretch.

And when your protesting on your nice safe western streets, Why don’t you go to the places these guys are from that hate the west. You will be lifted fairly quickly just seen as another westerner, They could not care less if you supported them. You would be used as a bargaining chip/hostage or in one of them videos they make.

like the west doesn't lift dodgy looking muslims and throw them in jail indefinitely?

when they're not randomly dropping bombs on muslim civilians

darkpagandeath

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

But not wrong enough to not do it?

Hang on I'm torturing people now ?

weisses

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean people that actually live in the Real world ? I already said torture is wrong. The guys who are being water boarded are doing far far far worse to their hostages.

How would you know the guys who are water boarded where guilty of anything ?

Waterboarding makes you confess to anything they accuse you off



unless you're chuck Norris of course

renegademaster

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I was living in America for another couple of years after 9/11 and the population was overwhelmingly in support of the invasion of Iraq, and to do whatever it took to destroy bin laden et al. The fact that opinion shifted in the US a number of years later should not clould the fact that if torture was needed in the post 9/11 world, the US public was behind it. The mood was to do whatever it took to take out Al Qaeda

they were fed all they needed to come to this conclusion on many different levels, all happily controlled by the war machine in full effect globally and the whole world have paid a heavy price for it since

weisses

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I was living in America for another couple of years after 9/11 and the population was overwhelmingly in support of the invasion of Iraq, and to do whatever it took to destroy bin laden et al. The fact that opinion shifted in the US a number of years later should not clould the fact that if torture was needed in the post 9/11 world, the US public was behind it. The mood was to do whatever it took to take out Al Qaeda

Problem was that Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq when the US invaded ... Same as WMDs

darkpagandeath

renegademaster wrote: »

it's beyond belief alright and all these wars are enabled due to this level of mass ignorance!!

The people wanting to destroy the west will get on quite fine without your support for starting wars.

partyguinness wrote: »

We hear you Jack Baur...we are only alive because people like you in the real world let us live in our nice comfortable lives...thank you and God bless..:)

Well if being realistic makes me a fictional person so be it.

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

like the west doesn't lift dodgy looking muslims and throw them in jail indefinitely?

when they're not randomly dropping bombs on muslim civilians

Same dodgy people you speak of are killing their own civilians at far higher rates. Suicide bombing them car bombing them. When these guys get their Islamic caliphate, have fun speaking out against it when your in it.

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean people that actually live in the Real world ? I already said torture is wrong. The guys who are being water boarded are doing far far far worse to their hostages.

Just more lazy verbiage Chuck , capitalising Real world only makes it even more fantasyland .

I have a revolutionary suggestion for you , why don't we in the west stop invading pillaging plundering destabilizing bombing torturing middle east countries for a period and see how that works out ?

Seems to be working pretty well in South America since the CIA stopped all its meddling .

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

Just more lazy verbiage Chuck , capitalising Real world only makes it even more fantasyland .

I have a revolutionary suggestion for you , why don't we in the west stop invading pillaging plundering destabilizing bombing torturing middle east countries for a period and see how that works out ?

Seems to be working pretty well in South America since the CIA stopped all its meddling .

Yup they have absolutely no problems at all.... What's their major exports again to the west ? Yup I never see a never ending war on drug cartels in any of south America. So you would be quite happy for the west to leave the Middle east to implode and very dangerous people take over ? You think it’s bad now Imagine if groups like ISIS take over.

Tis a bit of a bad idea the west just stopping any involvement in the middle east. Imagine saying sorry lads, our people don't want us hurting Terrorist your on your own. Good luck with the fight against militant radical groups

Grandpa Hassan

renegademaster wrote: »

they were fed all they needed to come to this conclusion on many different levels, all happily controlled by the war machine in full effect globally and the whole world have paid a heavy price for it since

No they weren't. That came afterwards in an attempt to maintain support. Do you think the US population needed the press to wind up their anger? Of course not. After 9.11, the anger was there. Islamic fundamentalists took out the towers (and if you don't believe that, CT is over there), Al Qaeda was a threat. The American public wanted action. Immediately. They wanted their military to go in. You can't just gloss over what the man in the street wanted done in after 9/11. All what happened was supported at the outset

The premise that there was not overwhelming support at the outset for military action, for rendition, for Guantanamo, is simply false

UCDVet

Meaningless posturing.

Nobody is going to take a stand against the US in any significant capacity. And if someone does, it won't be because of US human rights violations, they'll do it if and only if, they find themselves in a situation where doing so would be in that country's best interest.

We'll sit behind our desks and type, 'Those bastards! They tortured innocent people!' - but actions speak louder than words. And I can't walk for more than five minutes without bumping into American products, American companies and American culture.

We're implicitly supporting their actions by doing nothing. But we won't do anything cause nothing we do would make much difference to them, but it could hurt us. Which, in a sense, makes us just a guilty.

darkpagandeath

UCDVet wrote: »

Meaningless posturing.

Nobody is going to take a stand against the US in any significant capacity. And if someone does, it won't be because of US human rights violations, they'll do it if and only if, they find themselves in a situation where doing so would be in that country's best interest.

We'll sit behind our desks and type, 'Those bastards! They tortured innocent people!' - but actions speak louder than words. And I can't walk for more than five minutes without bumping into American's products or American culture.

We're implicitly supporting their actions by doing nothing. But we won't do anything cause nothing we do would make much difference to them, but it could hurt us. Which, in a sense, makes us just a guilty.

True I do love the delicious Irony of these people furiously typing on their Iphones or Ipads or Intel based pc. Those people out protesting "America is the devil" then saying "hang on I'm getting a call on my smart phone" and then taking a sip of their Starbucks coffee and eating a subway sandwich.

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Yup they have absolutely no problems at all.... What's their major exports again to the west ? Yup I never see a never ending war on drug cartels in any of south America. So you would be quite happy for the west to leave the Middle east to implode and very dangerous people take over ? You think it’s bad now Imagine if groups like ISIS take over.

Tis a bit of a bad idea the west just stopping any involvement in the middle east. Imagine saying sorry lads, our people don't want us hurting Terrorist your on your own. Good luck with the fight against militant radical groups

Of course South America have massive problems , but those problems are only compounded by outside involvement . Let nations solve their own problems and if they ask for help then fine , otherwise fcuk off .

Of course I would leave the Midddle East to implode , it will happen anyway as soon as the oil runs out and the west has 'no longer any strategic interest' in the region.

ISIS just like Saddam before them are absolutely no threat to the west and both are result of western incompetence and interference going back to the early 20th century.

partyguinness

marienbad wrote: »

Of course South America have massive problems , but those problems are only compounded by outside involvement . Let nations solve their own problems and if they ask for help then fine , otherwise fcuk off .

Of course I would leave the Midddle East to implode , it will happen anyway as soon as the oil runs out and the west has 'no longer any strategic interest' in the region.

ISIS just like Saddam before them are absolutely no threat to the west and both are result of western incompetence and interference going back to the early 20th century.

Is that really so hard to ask? Let them sort out their own problems but of course there is no US oil interests in SA..!

Going into Iraq etc and trying to impose a systmen of government on a people that don't know how to use it is never going to work. Look in Egypt, a relatively secular state until 2-3 years ago. They had democratic elections and of coure the losing side wldnot accept it, mass demonstrations again and Gov brought down. Going around in circles. Saddam, Taliban etc kept a lid on all that.

Look at the joke now...the Taliban remarked in 2003 that the US could never win for one simple reason...the US will have to go home at some stage. Taliban will just scatter to the hills and lie low for awhile. Now the US are negotiating with the Taliban...WTF?

BIg question...what was the last 10 years of war about and thousands of deaths and billions trillions of dollars. What was the point?

Why did they not negotiate in the first place? and the thing is, the US never seems to learn.

renegademaster

partyguinness wrote: »

Is that really so hard to ask? Let them sort out their own problems but of course there is no US oil interests in SA..!

Going into Iraq etc and trying to impose a systmen of government on a people that don't know how to use it is never going to work. Look in Egypt, a relatively secular state until 2-3 years ago. They had democratic elections and of coure the losing side wldnot accept it, mass demonstrations again and Gov brought down. Going around in circles. Saddam, Taliban etc kept a lid on all that.

Look at the joke now...the Taliban remarked in 2003 that the US could never win for one simple reason...the US will have to go home at some stage. Taliban will just scatter to the hills and lie low for awhile. Now the US are negotiating with the Taliban...WTF?

BIg question...what was the last 10 years of war about and thousands of deaths and billions trillions of dollars. What was the point?

Why did they not negotiate in the first place? and the thing is, the US never seems to learn.

or did they and now they're experts at creating wealth, allies and even more enemies through their endless wars and awarding contracts to their own

end of the road

Nodin wrote: »

Why is the American president declaring the US used torture a "conspiracy theory"?

because its mudlimz in it

end of the road

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I See Op, In your world of sunshine and lollypops were terrorists run into building with exploding candy vests all you have to do is ask them about things and they will tell you. I don't agree with torture, but sometimes extraordinary measures are needed on such fanatical people. And before we go the whole, But the innocent people, Well that is unfortunate but even in the worlds justice systems innocent people get put in jail and arrested and so on. The world is not perfect by any stretch.

And when your protesting on your nice safe western streets, Why don’t you go to the places these guys are from that hate the west. You will be lifted fairly quickly just seen as another westerner, They could not care less if you supported them. You would be used as a bargaining chip/hostage or in one of them videos they make.

such "extraordinary measures" are illegitimate, america has the information all ready, they basically force people into confessing to something they haven't done so they can say how they got the terrorists. as for those who hate the west, well thats the wests fault for bombing the **** out of these places and supporting extremist groups in the first place, and if you honestly think bombing countries like iraq for example has anything to do with "keeping the west safe" or "western values" then one is deluded

end of the road

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

A few Arab terrorists were allegedly tortured. Big swizz.

not allegedly at all, fact, but yeah, shur tis nothing, shur they were only Arab, shur it was only people being tortured, no big deal, i suppose if it was black people you'd have the same opinion, and you would be the first to moan if Arabs tortured a white irish person

end of the road

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean people that actually live in the Real world ? I already said torture is wrong. The guys who are being water boarded are doing far far far worse to their hostages.

i live in the real world, what they are apparently doing is no excuse for western countries to do the same and then come all high and mighty and tell others what they should and shouldn't do when doing the exact same things themselves

end of the road

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Yup they have absolutely no problems at all.... What's their major exports again to the west ? Yup I never see a never ending war on drug cartels in any of south America. So you would be quite happy for the west to leave the Middle east to implode and very dangerous people take over ? You think it’s bad now Imagine if groups like ISIS take over.

Tis a bit of a bad idea the west just stopping any involvement in the middle east. Imagine saying sorry lads, our people don't want us hurting Terrorist your on your own. Good luck with the fight against militant radical groups

the west caused the rise of these extremists, its the wests fault they exist

end of the road

darkpagandeath wrote: »

True I do love the delicious Irony of these people furiously typing on their Iphones or Ipads or Intel based pc. Those people out protesting "America is the devil" then saying "hang on I'm getting a call on my smart phone" and then taking a sip of their Starbucks coffee and eating a subway sandwich.

i don't own an Iphone, an Ipad, or a smart phone. i've never had Starbucks coffee or a subway sandwich. yes such people your talking about do exist but strangely enough there are people who are actually against a countries actions

hatrickpatrick

renegademaster wrote: »

so, the leader of the "free" world has come out and admitted the american army/government etc "tortured some folks" in the "war agaist terror", well that's nice, years after we all know for sure illegal torture and illegal renditions etc were happening!!

he also stated the nation as a whole needs to now take responcibility for the actions so they hopefully won't happen again in the future.

let nobody forget that in 3 months between Jan and mid Mar 2003 up to 36,000,000 people protested at 3000 protests (worldwide!!) against the Iraq/Afghan invasion!!

where will it all end?

http://rt.com/usa/177444-obama-briefing-cia-torture/

It's bullish!t and he knows it. The specific people who need to take responsibility are those who ordered, abetted, carried out, and turned a blind eye to the torture. And by take responsibility, I mean they should be prosecuted as criminals and serve an appropriate amount of time in prison if found guilty, just like a person from outside the establishment would for the same actions.

mickydoomsux

end of the road wrote: »

the west caused the rise of these extremists, its the wests fault they exist

Why are there similar groups active in Africa?

darkpagandeath

end of the road wrote: »

i don't own an Iphone, an Ipad, or a smart phone. i've never had Starbucks coffee or a subway sandwich. yes such people your talking about do exist but strangely enough there are people who are actually against a countries actions

You must live in a cave and eat berries if you think your not using American Products.

darkpagandeath

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Why are there similar groups active in Africa?

Yup exactly, There are groups in Africa wanting the same extreme world. The extreme groups in the middle east have a problem with the wests morality, It's as much a war of Religion as one of bullets. They would like nothing more than to have their Religious beliefs bestowed on the west. And if you think the west created all these problems in this area and they were getting on fine before we intervened. Maybe people should spend less time dodging college protesting and more time in it reading up on History. :pac: