America as a whole expected to take responcibility for US torture methods after 9.11

renegademaster

so, the leader of the "free" world has come out and admitted the american army/government etc "tortured some folks" in the "war agaist terror", well that's nice, years after we all know for sure illegal torture and illegal renditions etc were happening!!

he also stated the nation as a whole needs to now take responcibility for the actions so they hopefully won't happen again in the future.

let nobody forget that in 3 months between Jan and mid Mar 2003 up to 36,000,000 people protested at 3000 protests (worldwide!!) against the Iraq/Afghan invasion!!

where will it all end?

http://rt.com/usa/177444-obama-briefing-cia-torture/

wazky

renegademaster wrote: »

where will it all end?

With you tied to a plank and water being poured on your head, so be quiet.

Hotfail.com

renegademaster wrote: »

he also stated the nation as a whole needs to now take responcibility for the actions so they hopefully won't happen again in the future.

Why and how?

renegademaster

Hotfail.com wrote: »

Why and how?

fcuked if i know but then again this is the american/industrial war machine speaking out of O'Bombers ass!!

Arthur Beesley

Mods, can we move this sh*** to Conspiracy Theories...

Nodin

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Mods, can we move this sh*** to Conspiracy Theories...

Why is the American president declaring the US used torture a "conspiracy theory"?

Arthur Beesley

Nodin wrote: »

Why is the American president declaring the US used torture a "conspiracy theory"?

It's not. It's the tripe that surrounds it in the OP.

Nodin

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

It's not. It's the tripe that surrounds it in the OP.

What in the OP qualifies as a conspiracy theory?

AlanS181824

All I can say to that article is... 'Murica

Arthur Beesley

Nodin wrote: »

What in the OP qualifies as a conspiracy theory?

'Where will it all end' for a start.

Nodin

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

'Where will it all end' for a start.

Not seeing any conspiracy in that. The fact is that torture was instigated by Dick Cheney and his staff, aided and abetted by others in the Bush Government. Personally I would have thought they should take the blame and not the American people.

The Backwards Man

The day I start reading RT articles about the US is the day I start reading Fox News ones about Russia.

y0ssar1an22

Is torture not a war crime? And should there be a case to answer in those international courts?

Nodin

The Backwards Man wrote: »

The day I started reading RT articles about the US is the day I start reading Fox News ones about Russia.

There ye are
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28616553

Nodin

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Is torture not a war crime? And should there be a case to answer in those international courts?

It's a crime in US law for which they've prosecuted people (though not to do with the current issue).

The US has not ratified the treaty with regard to the ICC. As it has a veto on the UNSC action is highly unlikely.

partyguinness

Quelle Surprise....:rolleyes:

How long before they admit that Shannon was being used to transport prisoners...

I am appalled at his description of 'some folk'. I'm afraid I am not seeing the conspiracy theory.

mikeyjames9

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Is torture not a war crime? And should there be a case to answer in those international courts?

a war crime is whatever the US decides it to be at a particular moment in time

lazybones32

renegademaster wrote: »

he also stated the nation as a whole needs to now take responcibility for the actions so they hopefully won't happen again in the future.



where will it all end?

http://rt.com/usa/177444-obama-briefing-cia-torture/

Are you surprised that a politician speaks horsesh*t?

Obama isn't the harbinger of change that he proclaimed himself to be...

mickydoomsux

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Is torture not a war crime? And should there be a case to answer in those international courts?

See, the thing with the concept of war crimes and human rights and all that jazz is that they are adhered to right up until they aren't and then the people/army/nation who breaks the rules just makes a half hearted excuse or justification and moves on.

The only people convicted of war crimes and human rights violations are the ones on the losing side.

All the protections we have relating to conflicts like this are complete illusions and people are more afraid of bad public sentiment than they are of being a war criminal.

darkpagandeath

I See Op, In your world of sunshine and lollypops were terrorists run into building with exploding candy vests all you have to do is ask them about things and they will tell you. I don't agree with torture, but sometimes extraordinary measures are needed on such fanatical people. And before we go the whole, But the innocent people, Well that is unfortunate but even in the worlds justice systems innocent people get put in jail and arrested and so on. The world is not perfect by any stretch.

And when your protesting on your nice safe western streets, Why don’t you go to the places these guys are from that hate the west. You will be lifted fairly quickly just seen as another westerner, They could not care less if you supported them. You would be used as a bargaining chip/hostage or in one of them videos they make.

weisses

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Mods, can we move this sh*** to Conspiracy Theories...

Funny

Same remarks as above where made just after 9/11 when discussing torture and look what was admitted 13 years later

renegademaster

The Backwards Man wrote: »

The day I start reading RT articles about the US is the day I start reading Fox News ones about Russia.

apt username ya got there buddy

partyguinness wrote: »

Quelle Surprise....:rolleyes:

How long before they admit that Shannon was being used to transport prisoners...

I am appalled at his description of 'some folk'. I'm afraid I am not seeing the conspiracy theory.

wikileaks already proved this back in 2010/2011 http://www.shannonwatch.org/blog/us-military-renditions-and-shannon-wikileaks-cables-dublin

Tin Foil Hat

When he says they are going o take responsibility for it he means the those involved will be brought before the courts, right?
Those who carried it out, those who ordered it and those in a position to put a stop to it, but didn't - these people are all going to jail, right?
Riiiiiiiiiight!

Value Hunter

Protesters demand President speaks out against torture methods........

President speaks out.... Condemned as torturer condoner

partyguinness

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I See Op, In your world of sunshine and lollypops were terrorists run into building with exploding candy vests all you have to do is ask them about things and they will tell you. I don't agree with torture, but sometimes extraordinary measures are needed on such fanatical people. And before we go the whole, But the innocent people, Well that is unfortunate but even in the worlds justice systems innocent people get put in jail and arrested and so on. The world is not perfect by any stretch.

And when your protesting on your nice safe western streets, Why don’t you go to the places these guys are from that hate the west. You will be lifted fairly quickly just seen as another westerner, They could not care less if you supported them. You would be used as a bargaining chip/hostage or in one of them videos they make.

I believe that the point the OP is making is that the US denied it for years and twisted and turned splitting hairs on the definition of 'torture'. Nobody seriously believed they doing were anything but torturing. Maybe you can use that post latter on when more appropriate..;)

RobertKK

Warning about the following video that is linked, it is explicit and NSFW - it has uncensored photos and videos from Abu Ghraib, where prisoners were tortured and some murdered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVolRm1iqBY

I came across it yesterday, then heard what Obama had to say.
It just leaves one feeling sick about how people could do this to others.

the_syco

renegademaster wrote: »

http://rt.com/usa/177444-obama-briefing-cia-torture/

I wonder will the Kremlins news channel ever mention what their paymasters do to get their info from it's enemies?

renegademaster

Value Hunter wrote: »

Protesters demand President speaks out against torture methods........

President speaks out.... Condemned as torturer condoner

no, it's the way he nonchalantly tries to rope in the whole American nation as being collectively responsible for the torture their government got up to on thier behalf after 9.11!!

up to 36,000,000 people protested aginst the (now known to be illegal) Iraq/Afghan wars worldwide in 3 months!!

Arthur Beesley

weisses wrote: »

Funny

Same remarks as above where made just after 9/11 when discussing torture and look what was admitted 13 years later

A few Arab terrorists were allegedly tortured. Big swizz.

renegademaster

RobertKK wrote: »

Warning about the following video that is linked, it is explicit and NSFW - it has uncensored photos and videos from Abu Ghraib, where prisoners were tortured and some murdered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVolRm1iqBY

I came across it yesterday, then heard what Obama had to say.
It just leaves one feeling sick about how people could do this to others.

it's ok, didn't you gert the memo, the whole of america is on the hook for, ya know, just "torturing some folks", they're all responsible!!

renegademaster

the_syco wrote: »

I wonder will the Kremlins news channel ever mention what their paymasters to to get their info from it's enemies?

the bbc and many other new outlets are carrying the same story, i just chose to put up the rt.com link myself, google away for other sources if ya need to, they're all carrying the very same story/video

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I See Op, In your world of sunshine and lollypops were terrorists run into building with exploding candy vests all you have to do is ask them about things and they will tell you. I don't agree with torture, but sometimes extraordinary measures are needed on such fanatical people. And before we go the whole, But the innocent people, Well that is unfortunate but even in the worlds justice systems innocent people get put in jail and arrested and so on. The world is not perfect by any stretch.

And when your protesting on your nice safe western streets, Why don’t you go to the places these guys are from that hate the west. You will be lifted fairly quickly just seen as another westerner, They could not care less if you supported them. You would be used as a bargaining chip/hostage or in one of them videos they make.

I am amazed that people still trot out this kind of Chuck Norris rubbish .

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

I am amazed that people still trot out this kind of Chuck Norris rubbish .

You mean people that actually live in the Real world ? I already said torture is wrong. The guys who are being water boarded are doing far far far worse to their hostages.

Tin Foil Hat

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean people that actually live in the Real world ? I already said torture is wrong.

But not wrong enough to not do it?

renegademaster

marienbad wrote: »

I am amazed that people still trot out this kind of Chuck Norris rubbish .

it's beyond belief alright and all these wars are enabled due to this level of mass ignorance!!

Grandpa Hassan

renegademaster wrote: »

he also stated the nation as a whole needs to now take responcibility for the actions so they hopefully won't happen again in the future.

let nobody forget that in 3 months between Jan and mid Mar 2003 up to 36,000,000 people protested at 3000 protests (worldwide!!) against the Iraq/Afghan invasion!!

I was living in America for another couple of years after 9/11 and the population was overwhelmingly in support of the invasion of Iraq, and to do whatever it took to destroy bin laden et al. The fact that opinion shifted in the US a number of years later should not clould the fact that if torture was needed in the post 9/11 world, the US public was behind it. The mood was to do whatever it took to take out Al Qaeda

partyguinness

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean people that actually live in the Real world ? I already said torture is wrong. The guys who are being water boarded are doing far far far worse to there hostages.

We hear you Jack Baur...we are only alive because people like you in the real world let us live in our nice comfortable lives...thank you and God bless..:)

mikeyjames9

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I See Op, In your world of sunshine and lollypops were terrorists run into building with exploding candy vests all you have to do is ask them about things and they will tell you. I don't agree with torture, but sometimes extraordinary measures are needed on such fanatical people. And before we go the whole, But the innocent people, Well that is unfortunate but even in the worlds justice systems innocent people get put in jail and arrested and so on. The world is not perfect by any stretch.

And when your protesting on your nice safe western streets, Why don’t you go to the places these guys are from that hate the west. You will be lifted fairly quickly just seen as another westerner, They could not care less if you supported them. You would be used as a bargaining chip/hostage or in one of them videos they make.

like the west doesn't lift dodgy looking muslims and throw them in jail indefinitely?

when they're not randomly dropping bombs on muslim civilians

darkpagandeath

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

But not wrong enough to not do it?

Hang on I'm torturing people now ?

weisses

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean people that actually live in the Real world ? I already said torture is wrong. The guys who are being water boarded are doing far far far worse to their hostages.

How would you know the guys who are water boarded where guilty of anything ?

Waterboarding makes you confess to anything they accuse you off



unless you're chuck Norris of course

renegademaster

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I was living in America for another couple of years after 9/11 and the population was overwhelmingly in support of the invasion of Iraq, and to do whatever it took to destroy bin laden et al. The fact that opinion shifted in the US a number of years later should not clould the fact that if torture was needed in the post 9/11 world, the US public was behind it. The mood was to do whatever it took to take out Al Qaeda

they were fed all they needed to come to this conclusion on many different levels, all happily controlled by the war machine in full effect globally and the whole world have paid a heavy price for it since

weisses

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I was living in America for another couple of years after 9/11 and the population was overwhelmingly in support of the invasion of Iraq, and to do whatever it took to destroy bin laden et al. The fact that opinion shifted in the US a number of years later should not clould the fact that if torture was needed in the post 9/11 world, the US public was behind it. The mood was to do whatever it took to take out Al Qaeda

Problem was that Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq when the US invaded ... Same as WMDs

darkpagandeath

renegademaster wrote: »

it's beyond belief alright and all these wars are enabled due to this level of mass ignorance!!

The people wanting to destroy the west will get on quite fine without your support for starting wars.

partyguinness wrote: »

We hear you Jack Baur...we are only alive because people like you in the real world let us live in our nice comfortable lives...thank you and God bless..:)

Well if being realistic makes me a fictional person so be it.

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

like the west doesn't lift dodgy looking muslims and throw them in jail indefinitely?

when they're not randomly dropping bombs on muslim civilians

Same dodgy people you speak of are killing their own civilians at far higher rates. Suicide bombing them car bombing them. When these guys get their Islamic caliphate, have fun speaking out against it when your in it.

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean people that actually live in the Real world ? I already said torture is wrong. The guys who are being water boarded are doing far far far worse to their hostages.

Just more lazy verbiage Chuck , capitalising Real world only makes it even more fantasyland .

I have a revolutionary suggestion for you , why don't we in the west stop invading pillaging plundering destabilizing bombing torturing middle east countries for a period and see how that works out ?

Seems to be working pretty well in South America since the CIA stopped all its meddling .

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

Just more lazy verbiage Chuck , capitalising Real world only makes it even more fantasyland .

I have a revolutionary suggestion for you , why don't we in the west stop invading pillaging plundering destabilizing bombing torturing middle east countries for a period and see how that works out ?

Seems to be working pretty well in South America since the CIA stopped all its meddling .

Yup they have absolutely no problems at all.... What's their major exports again to the west ? Yup I never see a never ending war on drug cartels in any of south America. So you would be quite happy for the west to leave the Middle east to implode and very dangerous people take over ? You think it’s bad now Imagine if groups like ISIS take over.

Tis a bit of a bad idea the west just stopping any involvement in the middle east. Imagine saying sorry lads, our people don't want us hurting Terrorist your on your own. Good luck with the fight against militant radical groups

Grandpa Hassan

renegademaster wrote: »

they were fed all they needed to come to this conclusion on many different levels, all happily controlled by the war machine in full effect globally and the whole world have paid a heavy price for it since

No they weren't. That came afterwards in an attempt to maintain support. Do you think the US population needed the press to wind up their anger? Of course not. After 9.11, the anger was there. Islamic fundamentalists took out the towers (and if you don't believe that, CT is over there), Al Qaeda was a threat. The American public wanted action. Immediately. They wanted their military to go in. You can't just gloss over what the man in the street wanted done in after 9/11. All what happened was supported at the outset

The premise that there was not overwhelming support at the outset for military action, for rendition, for Guantanamo, is simply false

UCDVet

Meaningless posturing.

Nobody is going to take a stand against the US in any significant capacity. And if someone does, it won't be because of US human rights violations, they'll do it if and only if, they find themselves in a situation where doing so would be in that country's best interest.

We'll sit behind our desks and type, 'Those bastards! They tortured innocent people!' - but actions speak louder than words. And I can't walk for more than five minutes without bumping into American products, American companies and American culture.

We're implicitly supporting their actions by doing nothing. But we won't do anything cause nothing we do would make much difference to them, but it could hurt us. Which, in a sense, makes us just a guilty.

darkpagandeath

UCDVet wrote: »

Meaningless posturing.

Nobody is going to take a stand against the US in any significant capacity. And if someone does, it won't be because of US human rights violations, they'll do it if and only if, they find themselves in a situation where doing so would be in that country's best interest.

We'll sit behind our desks and type, 'Those bastards! They tortured innocent people!' - but actions speak louder than words. And I can't walk for more than five minutes without bumping into American's products or American culture.

We're implicitly supporting their actions by doing nothing. But we won't do anything cause nothing we do would make much difference to them, but it could hurt us. Which, in a sense, makes us just a guilty.

True I do love the delicious Irony of these people furiously typing on their Iphones or Ipads or Intel based pc. Those people out protesting "America is the devil" then saying "hang on I'm getting a call on my smart phone" and then taking a sip of their Starbucks coffee and eating a subway sandwich.

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Yup they have absolutely no problems at all.... What's their major exports again to the west ? Yup I never see a never ending war on drug cartels in any of south America. So you would be quite happy for the west to leave the Middle east to implode and very dangerous people take over ? You think it’s bad now Imagine if groups like ISIS take over.

Tis a bit of a bad idea the west just stopping any involvement in the middle east. Imagine saying sorry lads, our people don't want us hurting Terrorist your on your own. Good luck with the fight against militant radical groups

Of course South America have massive problems , but those problems are only compounded by outside involvement . Let nations solve their own problems and if they ask for help then fine , otherwise fcuk off .

Of course I would leave the Midddle East to implode , it will happen anyway as soon as the oil runs out and the west has 'no longer any strategic interest' in the region.

ISIS just like Saddam before them are absolutely no threat to the west and both are result of western incompetence and interference going back to the early 20th century.

partyguinness

marienbad wrote: »

Of course South America have massive problems , but those problems are only compounded by outside involvement . Let nations solve their own problems and if they ask for help then fine , otherwise fcuk off .

Of course I would leave the Midddle East to implode , it will happen anyway as soon as the oil runs out and the west has 'no longer any strategic interest' in the region.

ISIS just like Saddam before them are absolutely no threat to the west and both are result of western incompetence and interference going back to the early 20th century.

Is that really so hard to ask? Let them sort out their own problems but of course there is no US oil interests in SA..!

Going into Iraq etc and trying to impose a systmen of government on a people that don't know how to use it is never going to work. Look in Egypt, a relatively secular state until 2-3 years ago. They had democratic elections and of coure the losing side wldnot accept it, mass demonstrations again and Gov brought down. Going around in circles. Saddam, Taliban etc kept a lid on all that.

Look at the joke now...the Taliban remarked in 2003 that the US could never win for one simple reason...the US will have to go home at some stage. Taliban will just scatter to the hills and lie low for awhile. Now the US are negotiating with the Taliban...WTF?

BIg question...what was the last 10 years of war about and thousands of deaths and billions trillions of dollars. What was the point?

Why did they not negotiate in the first place? and the thing is, the US never seems to learn.

renegademaster

partyguinness wrote: »

Is that really so hard to ask? Let them sort out their own problems but of course there is no US oil interests in SA..!

Going into Iraq etc and trying to impose a systmen of government on a people that don't know how to use it is never going to work. Look in Egypt, a relatively secular state until 2-3 years ago. They had democratic elections and of coure the losing side wldnot accept it, mass demonstrations again and Gov brought down. Going around in circles. Saddam, Taliban etc kept a lid on all that.

Look at the joke now...the Taliban remarked in 2003 that the US could never win for one simple reason...the US will have to go home at some stage. Taliban will just scatter to the hills and lie low for awhile. Now the US are negotiating with the Taliban...WTF?

BIg question...what was the last 10 years of war about and thousands of deaths and billions trillions of dollars. What was the point?

Why did they not negotiate in the first place? and the thing is, the US never seems to learn.

or did they and now they're experts at creating wealth, allies and even more enemies through their endless wars and awarding contracts to their own