There's no academic difference between working class and middle class children

steddyeddy

Piliger wrote: »

Oh you mean like the self serving evidence posted by teachers and carried out by educationalists with vested interests ? Oh yeah.

You're misunderstanding how research works. You don't attack the source you deal with the points made in the research itself.

osarusan

steddyeddy wrote: »

you deal with the points made in the research itself.

Very true.

As soon as you provide the research saying that neuroplasticity means that everybody can have the same intelligence, I'll deal with the points made in the research.

steddyeddy

osarusan wrote: »

Very true.

As soon as you provide the research saying that neuroplasticity means that everybody can have the same intelligence, I'll deal with the points made in the research.

Yes but first can I ask what you know of the current thinking on the subject? I mean is it your contention that IQ can't increase?

osarusan

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes but first can I ask what you know of the current thinking on the subject? I mean is it your contention that IQ can't increase?

You've made the point a couple of times that you are an academic and a scientist. But I'm doing something very simple, which is to ask you to provide the evidence for the claim you made.

You haven't done so, you've just ignored it for the last 24 hours. There's nothing academic about that.

steddyeddy

osarusan wrote: »

You've made the point a couple of times that you are an academic and a scientist. But I'm doing something very simple, which is to ask you to provide the evidence for the claim you made.

You haven't done so, you've just ignored it for the last 24 hours. There's nothing academic about that.

I will provide evidence. I'm asking what is the current scientific consensus as you know it?

byhookorbycrook

Piliger wrote: »

Oh you mean like the self serving evidence posted by teachers and carried out by educationalists with vested interests ? Oh yeah.

Still waiting. Pretty poor argument by the way, you blame the teacher unions yet cannot refute research carried out elsewhere. Or are you Ruairí Quinn , bored having errr.... "resigned?"

And who would be best to carry out educational research educationalists or say -car mechanics?

Mardy Bum

steddyeddy wrote: »

I will provide evidence. I'm asking what is the current scientific consensus as you know it?

Here is the book you are looking for in terms of neuroscience and education. Intelligence is malleable but interestingly this book actually supports the idea that recalling of facts and practice (i.e the current LC examination system) are the most important elements in increasing intelligence.

steddyeddy

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Here is the book you are looking for in terms of neuroscience and education. Intelligence is malleable but interestingly this book actually supports the idea that recalling of facts and practice (i.e the current LC examination system) are the most important elements in increasing intelligence.

Hey thanks Mardy! I first found out about neural plasticity through a book called "the brain that changes itself". I read some of the papers that the book refers to and found them very interesting. I'll have to dig out a few here.

steddyeddy

Right first things first. Here's a paper detailing that increase in IQ are possible with outside stimuli.

http://pss.sagepub.com/content/15/8/511.short

Music Lessons Enhance IQ

1. E. Glenn Schellenberg

+ Author Affiliations

1. University of Toronto at Mississauga, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

1. Glenn Schellenberg, Department of Psychology, University of Toronto at Mississauga, Mississauga, ON, Canada L5L 1C6; e-mail: g.schellenberg@utoronto.ca.

Abstract

The idea that music makes you smarter has received considerable attention from scholars and the media. The present report is the first to test this hypothesis directly with random assignment of a large sample of children (N = 144) to two different types of music lessons (keyboard or voice) or to control groups that received drama lessons or no lessons. IQ was measured before and after the lessons. Compared with children in the control groups, children in the music groups exhibited greater increases in full-scale IQ. The effect was relatively small, but it generalized across IQ subtests, index scores, and a standardized measure of academic achievement. Unexpectedly, children in the drama group exhibited substantial pre- to post-test improvements in adaptive social behavior that were not evident in the music groups.

Here's an older paper showing increases in memory

Glucose enhancement of performance of memory tests in young and aged humans ☆


Abstract

Recent findings indicate that glucose administration enhances memory processes in rodents. This study examined the effects of glucose on memory in humans. After drinking glucose- or saccharin-flavored beverages, college-aged and elderly humans were tested with modified versions of the Wechsler Memory Scale. Beverages and tests were administered in a counter-balanced, crossover design, enabling within subject comparisons. The major findings were: (1) glucose enhanced memory in elderly and, to a lesser extent, in young subjects; and (2) glucose tolerance in individual subjects predicted memory in elderly, but not in young subjects on both glucose and saccharin test days.

Here's a paper on the effects of aerobic exercise leading to improved cognition

Aerobic exercise effects on cognitive and neural plasticity in older adults

K I Erickson1 and A F Kramer2

Author information ► Copyright and License information ►

The publisher's final edited version of this article is available at Br J Sports Med
See other articles in PMC that cite the published article.


Older adults frequently experience cognitive deficits accompanied by deterioration of brain tissue and function in a number of cortical and sub-cortical regions. Because of this common finding and the increasing ageing population in many countries throughout the world, there is an increasing interest in assessing the possibility that partaking in or changing certain lifestyles could prevent or reverse cognitive and neural decay in older adults. In this review we critically evaluate and summarise the cross-sectional and longitudinal studies that assess the impact of aerobic exercise and fitness on cognitive performance, brain volume, and brain function in older adults with and without dementia. We argue that 6 months of moderate levels of aerobic activity are sufficient to produce significant improvements in cognitive function with the most dramatic effects occurring on measures of executive control. These improvements are accompanied by altered brain activity measures and increases in prefrontal and temporal grey matter volume that translate into a more efficient and effective neural system.

Here's a paper of memory improvement in older adults

Improvement in memory with plasticity-based adaptive cognitive training: results of the 3-month follow-up.
Zelinski EM1, Spina LM, Yaffe K, Ruff R, Kennison RF, Mahncke HW, Smith GE.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVES:

To investigate maintenance of training effects of a novel brain plasticity-based computerized cognitive training program in older adults after a 3-month no-contact period.
DESIGN:

Multisite, randomized, controlled, double-blind trial with two treatment groups.
SETTING:

Communities in northern and southern California and Minnesota.
PARTICIPANTS:

Four hundred eighty-seven community-dwelling adults aged 65 and older without diagnosis of clinically significant cognitive impairment.
INTERVENTION:

Random assignment into a broadly available brain plasticity-based computerized cognitive training program experimental group or a novelty- and intensity-matched cognitive stimulation active control. Assessments at baseline, after training, and at 3 months.
MEASUREMENTS:

The primary outcome was a composite of auditory subtests of the Repeatable Battery for the Assessment of Neuropsychological Status. Secondary measures included trained task performance, standardized neuropsychological assessments of overall memory and attention, and participant-reported outcomes (PROs).
RESULTS:

A significant difference in improvement from baseline to 3-month follow-up was seen between the experimental training and control groups on the secondary composite of overall memory and attention, (P=.01, d=0.25), the trained processing-speed measure (P<.001, d=0.80), word list total recall (P=.004, d=0.28), letter-number sequencing (P=.003, d=0.29), and the cognitive subscale of PRO (P=.006, d=0.27). Previously significant improvements became nonsignificant at the 3-month follow-up for the primary outcome, two secondary measures of attention and memory, and several PROs. Narrative memory continued to show no advantage for the experimental group. Effect sizes from baseline to follow-up were generally smaller than effect sizes from baseline to posttraining.
CONCLUSION:

Training effects were maintained but waned over the 3-month no-contact period.

© 2011, Copyright the Authors. Journal compilation © 2011, The American Geriatrics Society.

steddyeddy

Surely it's obvious that class size would correlate with performance? I take it the people who dispute this would have no problem sending their children to a school with 40 plus in the class. Not to mention the stress this would put on a teacher.

steddyeddy

tritium wrote: »

So much if this class stuff is pure perception. An awful lot of folks seem to want to be middle class when it suits and switch to working class when the subject of paying the bill comes up.

I think the class system is utter toss too and has no consistent basis in reality. The fact is however that there is economically deprived areas with low third level participation rates.

osarusan

steddyeddy wrote: »

Right first things first. Here's a paper detailing that increase in IQ are possible with outside stimuli.

http://pss.sagepub.com/content/15/8/511.short




Here's an older paper showing increases in memory



Here's a paper on the effects of aerobic exercise leading to improved cognition



Here's a paper of memory improvement in older adults

Ye, neuroplasticity means that in indivual's brain is more flexible and trainable than previously, believed, and that intelligence can be improved. Nobody disputes that (on this thread, at least).

But, where do those studies say that everybody can have the same intelligence? What conclusions support your argument?

Here's the answer - they don't. you asked for my opinion, so I'll tell you what I think.

Nuuroplasticity does not mean that everybody can end up with the same intelligence. It doesn't mean that in any way. One of the papers you've quoted deals with neuroplasticity and subsequent intelligence improvement in older people. This paper makes it clear that, far from becoming stablised as early as we used to believe, the brain is still plastic and trainable even in older people. Therefore, even in older people, their intelligence is not static, but can be improved, with the right stimuli. The implication of this is that people at the age where they enter university possess an intelligence which is not necessarily final or fossilised.

So, how can you argue that intelligence shouldn't be a factor in entering university because neuroplasticity means everybody can reach the same level of intelligence, if you're using to support this argument a piece of research that tells you that any individual's intelligence is still changeable at least up to an age where they would already have finished university? How can you expect, for example, two people with initial intelligence variation (you allowed for this earlier) to have reached the same level of intelligence by the time they reach university age, when the research tells you that each person's intelligence is still malleable well after that age?

xLisaBx

I really do think this is true. I come from a "lower socio economic" background and I haven't suffered any hindrance to my education. I doubt it has had an influence on my level of intellect either, none of my parents did their junior certs yet I hope for 500+ points in the leaving

Kermit.de.frog

If the parents are feckless parents then the children will be feckless children. Unfortunately this is increasingly generational.

Hotfail.com

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Just because someone is dyslexic doesn't mean they are incapable of spelling. W.B. Yeats was most likely dyslexic and look at his career.

Don't mean to be pedantic, but Yeats was well known to be poor at spelling. Didn't stop him becoming a famous poet though (even though I absolutely despise his poetry... :rolleyes:)

xLisaBx

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If the parents are feckless parents then the children will be feckless children. Unfortunately this is increasingly generational.

Not always

Hotfail.com

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If the parents are feckless parents then the children will be feckless children. Unfortunately this is increasingly generational.

Tbh I feel this is the only reason working class children would perform more poorly than middle class ones, obviously not always the case though.

Ficheall

steddyeddy wrote: »

Schellenberg wrote:

Unexpectedly, children in the drama group exhibited substantial pre- to post-test improvements in adaptive social behavior that were not evident in the music groups.

Really?
I often wonder about academic researchers...

Mardy Bum

Hotfail.com wrote: »

Don't mean to be pedantic, but Yeats was well known to be poor at spelling. Didn't stop him becoming a famous poet though (even though I absolutely despise his poetry... :rolleyes:)

There were two parts to my post one was in response to another poster and the other remark a general one about dyslexia using Yeats as an example. They are not connected. Having extensively researched Yeats, I am very much aware of Year's inability to spell. My point was dyslexia doesn't make one incapable of spelling.

steddyeddy

Ficheall wrote: »

Really?
I often wonder about academic researchers...

Yes I often see grammar errors in scientific papers. Saying that it's the science that matters.

Ficheall

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes I often see grammar errors in scientific papers. Saying that it's the science that matters.

Grammar? I was referring to the fact that they seemed surprised that children who had participated in drama classes showed an improvement in adaptive social behaviour.

steddyeddy

Ficheall wrote: »

Grammar? I was referring to the fact that they seemed surprised that children who had participated in drama classes showed an improvement in adaptive social behaviour.

Well some of them need to get out more to be honest.

steddyeddy

xLisaBx wrote: »

I really do think this is true. I come from a "lower socio economic" background and I haven't suffered any hindrance to my education. I doubt it has had an influence on my level of intellect either, none of my parents did their junior certs yet I hope for 500+ points in the leaving

Of course it wouldn't. Well done Lisa and good luck in the leaving.

steddyeddy

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If the parents are feckless parents then the children will be feckless children. Unfortunately this is increasingly generational.

No. Generalisations don't deserve more than one word refutations.

Mardy Bum

steddyeddy wrote: »

No. Generalisations don't deserve more than one word refutations.

"Statistically there will be a much greater chance" is the clause I think he was missing.

steddyeddy

Mardy Bum wrote: »

"Statistically there will be a much greater chance" is the clause I think he was missing.

And a more accurate word than feckless.

xLisaBx

steddyeddy wrote: »

Of course it wouldn't. Well done Lisa and good luck in the leaving.

Thank you I think it makes people more ambitious to learn and to pursue 3rd level education. People who come from poverty generally want to change their lives!

steddyeddy

xLisaBx wrote: »

Thank you I think it makes people more ambitious to learn and to pursue 3rd level education. People who come from poverty generally want to change their lives!

Yea I was the same Lisa. I don't see how people wouldn't get that. I'm easily the more ambitious than some of my friends born into better circumstances.

Ave Sodalis

steddyeddy wrote: »

Right first things first. Here's a paper detailing that increase in IQ are possible with outside stimuli.

http://pss.sagepub.com/content/15/8/511.short




Here's an older paper showing increases in memory



Here's a paper on the effects of aerobic exercise leading to improved cognition



Here's a paper of memory improvement in older adults

The biggest flaw in your argument here is assuming that IQ is an accurate measurement for intelligence. It's not and whether it can be improved on or not, it does not prove that everyone can have the same level of intelligence because what you are using to measure intelligence is flawed.
Furthermore, the factors that influence intelligence are too many to ever get an unbiased study to whether we have the capacity to be the same. Personally, I don't believe we do. Those factors go start right back to before we are born, and even if you discount outliers like learning difficulties and gifted people, there is still too much of a variance in the data before you even begin to study it.
So what if we get twin sisters with similar upbringing, have them fall pregnant from twin brothers (as to reduce the genetic variance) at the same time. Have them both follow the exact same routine all through the pregnancy and up-bringing so as to have as near a similarity between the two children as possible. Would that mean that the two children will be equally as intelligent? I don't think so, because it doesn't factor in things like personality and individualism.

Hotfail.com

Mardy Bum wrote: »

There were two parts to my post one was in response to another poster and the other remark a general one about dyslexia using Yeats as an example. They are not connected. Having extensively researched Yeats, I am very much aware of Year's inability to spell. My point was dyslexia doesn't make one incapable of spelling.

:rolleyes:

Sounded like they were connected tbh.

Dyslexia certainly doesn't help your ability to spell, I don't think anyone believes it makes you "incapable of spelling" though.