There's no academic difference between working class and middle class children

Overheal

Piliger wrote: »

A completely biased and worthless report. In addition, no one on this thread even suggested that poverty doesn't make academic success harder.

Care to explain? :rolleyes:

Piliger

Overheal wrote: »

Care to explain? :rolleyes:

No. You use the report to bolster your case. It's up to you to justify it, especially considering who paid for it and who carried it out.

_Whimsical_

tritium wrote: »

That is true. Unfortunately however second level education is not in many respects, and doesn't really enable critical thinking or problem solving. There's more to be gained by fixing that than the third level access issue

Does it have to be one or the other?

Referring to the OPs original point about disparity in academic attainment between classes we could actually go back and fix primary education too if we are to level the playing field.
Sadly children in certain catchment areas are more likely to fall behind early because of the pressures on schools that deal with problematic social issues. That can be schools in deprived areas who have to focus a lot more than in wealthier areas on problems like discipline.Sometimes their work has to be more about ensuring the care of the students and teaching behavioural norms than worrying about school work.
Last week the news featured a story about a young man who died in our care system. His mum was neglectful and had drug problems. He attended school but at age 9 he did not know how to properly clean himself after using the bathroom, he had never been taught.
How do you integrate just one child with problems that stem from that severe level of neglect into a class,meet him on his level to teach him and expect to give the other children an education on par with schools who face little or no social issues?

I know of a primary school in Ireland that focuses a part of their curriculum time on teaching english as a foreign language to accommodate the high numbers of children from foreign families who speak their native tongue at home.It could be said that this reinforces language in the native english speakers but for bright children their time would be better spent being challenged and progressing.

I was reading some research recently on early school leavers. It was really sad to see how some of the issues that prevented them succeeding academically stemmed from their earliest years. One study cited found that by age 6 some children of average and slightly below average intelligence had fallen behind in basic reading by up to 1000 teaching hours when compared to the norms for their ages.
Factors influencing that slide ranged from disinterested parents who failed to do homework,lack of special ed help in schools,extremely stressful home environments that blunted their ability to their concentrate (extreme stress has also been shown to temporarily shrink the hippocampus in the brain in young children,the hippocampus is the learning centre of the brain).

All those problems are sadly more prevalent in areas that face poverty,drug addiction and are more likely to be working class. That's not to say all working class areas or people are affected by those issues. I know plenty working class people who are now professionals on top of their game. Still , the issue that is there is a social issue, it's not about children being less capable or less intelligent, it's about children being failed from an early point in their lives.
If there's an academic difference between the classes it's a difference of opportunity, not ability.

Mardy Bum

A lot of kids need socialisation before they get an education and this is more of a problem in areas of social deprivation which then means learning objectives are not met by the class as 5 or 6 students are not fit for mainstream schooling and have not been socialised properly. This starts at a young age and continues right through mainly because there are no socialisation units.

K-9

Classes of 30 or so are going to have some students with behavourial/learning difficulties. There'll will always be those perceived as holding others back. The Finnish system seems to work but it's probably a bit too Socialist for some so therefor inconceivable.

Mardy Bum

K-9 wrote: »

Classes of 30 or so are going to have some students with behavourial/learning difficulties. There'll will always be those perceived as holding others back. The Finnish system seems to work but it's probably a bit too Socialist for some so therefor inconceivable.

The Finnish system has about fourteen in a class. The worst teacher in Ireland could do a great job with fourteen.

K-9

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The Finnish system has about fourteen in a class. The worst teacher in Ireland could do a great job with fourteen.

Doesn't sound a realistic ratio for us then. The Finns obviously spent a fortune wisely and strategically to get there.

Ave Sodalis

K-9 wrote: »

Doesn't sound a realistic ratio for us then. The Finns obviously spent a fortune wisely and strategically to get there.

The Dutch are the same. They have quite high tax rates but the vast majority of it goes into education and health care. Schools get what they need. Teachers are only there if they want to be. If they don't want to be, they are re-educated into a different career path. They know the value of a good education and so their drop out rate is extremely low.

byhookorbycrook

Primary school is too late, by the time a child starts in infants,they may have missed so much already, even with the free pre-school year.

Academic results don't measure a child's intelligence, they measure how well they can fit in to and maximize the exam system to their benefit. Never mind any mention of multiple intelligences.

One of the most gifted children that passed through my hands scored abysmally in the standardized tests from an early age, because he was severely dyslexic. His parents didn't have the money to get him assessed and because of the huge cutbacks in primary education, it took a few years for him to be assessed through the school. Fortunately enough, we had a good support team and class teachers who could see the disparity so he got the help he needed and it came as a huge relief to him and to us to know that he would get a reader and scribe as he deserved for state exams so that he could also maximize the system to get into college.
If he hadn't been able to get that assessment, he wouldn't have gone on to college. So yes, money and resources can make a difference to academic achievement, but don't mean you're any smarter!

Annasopra

Piliger wrote: »

The thing about the CAO is not that it is perfect or even fair. But it is the best we can come up with. My son went through it recently and it is a horrible thing. But I haven't seen a better system proposed.

I didnt say its perfect but it is actually very fair

Ave Sodalis

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Primary school is too late, by the time a child starts in infants,they may have missed so much already, even with the free pre-school year.

Academic results don't measure a child's intelligence, they measure how well they can fit in to and maximize the exam system to their benefit. Never mind any mention of multiple intelligences.

One of the most gifted children that passed through my hands scored abysmally in the standardized tests from an early age, because he was severely dyslexic. His parents didn't have the money to get him assessed and because of the huge cutbacks in primary education, it took a few years for him to be assessed through the school. Fortunately enough, we had a good support team and class teachers who could see the disparity so he got the help he needed and it came as a huge relief to him and to us to know that he would get a reader and scribe as he deserved for state exams so that he could also maximize the system to get into college.
If he hadn't been able to get that assessment, he wouldn't have gone on to college. So yes, money and resources can make a difference to academic achievement, but don't mean you're any smarter!

+1000
There is more than one form of intelligence. Just because you don't do well in school, doesn't mean you lack intelligence. It just means you don't fit into the system in place too well and don't do well with memorising large amounts of information before vomiting the information down on paper again. Even within academia, there are differences. You might struggle with English, for example. It doesn't make you any less intelligent because you might be great at maths! Heck, you may even be a genius at maths but your other subjects might drag you down so you have a mediocre Leaving Cert. Then you can come out of the school, and there's even more forms of intelligence. Doing well in school doesn't mean you're a lateral thinker, for example. It doesn't mean that you can create lovely pieces of music. It just means you have one form of intelligence.

Piliger

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The Finnish system has about fourteen in a class. The worst teacher in Ireland could do a great job with fourteen.

I don't believe that for a minute. Class size is a complete myth as a barrier to quality teaching that has been manipulated by the teachers unions. I myself, my children and wider family have had many teachers who were and are as effective with 50 in a class as with 10. 30 in a class is perfectly sensible if the teacher is competent.

K-9

Smaller class sizes obviously give teachers more time with students, because well looking after 50 is more time consuming than 14. There'll be more problem students in bigger classes. Again because it's Finland some will be ideologically opposed to the very idea, a mental bloc on it.

Piliger

K-9 wrote: »

Smaller class sizes obviously give teachers more time with students, because well looking after 50 is more time consuming than 14. There'll be more problem students in bigger classes. Again because it's Finland some will be ideologically opposed to the very idea, a mental bloc on it.

This is still more of this myth. A teacher doesn't need to 'spend time with' students. They need to communicate and teach. These are completely different things. Finland has chosen to buy into this myth and that is their prerogative. But there are many factors that make their system marginally better than ours.

byhookorbycrook

Piliger wrote: »

I don't believe that for a minute. Class size is a complete myth as a barrier to quality teaching that has been manipulated by the teachers unions. I myself, my children and wider family have had many teachers who were and are as effective with 50 in a class as with 10. 30 in a class is perfectly sensible if the teacher is competent.

So you're not a teacher then?My first class had 42 Junior Infants, it was crowd control and teach to the middle and bad luck to any who couldn't keep up.

You have to take into account that children's primary education has changed, it's not about all 30 kids doing all the same thing at the same time.

Children are not expected to sit from 9-3 without leaving their desks and in any case, many couldn't. (Not a bad thing, but an indication of how things have changed)

Children who were once bussed out of their communities to special schools now attend mainstream.

There are children with little English in many classes.

The "it did me no harm" argument is also used to justify corporal punishment ,do you suggest schools need to re-introduce this too?

Can you actually back what you have said with data or do you fall for media hype? Why do you think people pay so much for private schools-where small class size is a major selling point?
"Our impressive Teacher/Pupil ratio of 9:1 guarantees close individual attention and provides a personalised curriculum that nurtures, shapes and inspires all our students to maximise their potential"

http://www.suttonparkschool.com/suttonparkschool/Main/2010_About_Welcome.htm

"Each year group is divided into two class groups, with their own Form Teacher, and class sizes are generally around 20-22 pupils"

http://www.castleparkschool.ie/school/academic/prep/

"Overall, research shows class size reductions to between 15 to 20 students in the early grades (Kindergarten to third grade) lead to higher student achievement with the average student moving from the 50
th percentile up to somewhere above the 60th "
https://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforMedia/InformationforJournalists/ClassSizeinPrimarySchools-theresearch.pdf


percentile with larger gains for disadvantaged and minority students. Students,

teachers, and parents all report positive effects from the impact of class size reductions

on the quality of classroom activity.

Mardy Bum

Piliger wrote: »

I don't believe that for a minute. Class size is a complete myth as a barrier to quality teaching that has been manipulated by the teachers unions. I myself, my children and wider family have had many teachers who were and are as effective with 50 in a class as with 10. 30 in a class is perfectly sensible if the teacher is competent.

Save me time and google it or simply use your common sense. How much time can a teacher devote to a student if there are 29 others and the class is 30 minutes long?

EDIT: Actually that statement is so (probably purposefully) misguided I'm not sure why I should reply.

K-9

Piliger wrote: »

This is still more of this myth. A teacher doesn't need to 'spend time with' students. They need to communicate and teach. These are completely different things. Finland has chosen to buy into this myth and that is their prerogative. But there are many factors that make their system marginally better than ours.

Oh a truther. If it's a myth I'm sure you'll have loads of objective research saying it is.

Piliger

K-9 wrote: »

Oh a truther. If it's a myth I'm sure you'll have loads of objective research saying it is.

You're making the claim. This is just one of the greatest teacher motivated pieces of nonsense.

steddyeddy

sup_dude wrote: »

+1000
There is more than one form of intelligence. Just because you don't do well in school, doesn't mean you lack intelligence. It just means you don't fit into the system in place too well and don't do well with memorising large amounts of information before vomiting the information down on paper again. Even within academia, there are differences. You might struggle with English, for example. It doesn't make you any less intelligent because you might be great at maths! Heck, you may even be a genius at maths but your other subjects might drag you down so you have a mediocre Leaving Cert. Then you can come out of the school, and there's even more forms of intelligence. Doing well in school doesn't mean you're a lateral thinker, for example. It doesn't mean that you can create lovely pieces of music. It just means you have one form of intelligence.

You need 500 points to get into science now. So if you get a D in two subjects like english or geography you might not get into science! That doesn't mean you're not a scientist it just means the system didn't work for you.

K-9

Piliger wrote: »

You're making the claim. This is just one of the greatest teacher motivated pieces of nonsense.

LOL, you are making the claim that it is a myth with no evidence. Methinks you are on a bit of a wind up.

byhookorbycrook

I've posted evidence that it IS a myth, looking forward to see the counter evidence.

Cantremember

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

he got the help he needed and it came as a huge relief to him and to us to know that he would get a reader and scribe as he deserved for state exams so that he could also maximize the system to get into college.
If he hadn't been able to get that assessment, he wouldn't have gone on to college. So yes, money and resources can make a difference to academic achievement, but don't mean you're any smarter!

I'm curious about your description. In his exams he had a reader and a scribe? Someone who read the exam and who wrote the answers? What course is he following do you know? I'm curious as to his career: I don't see how he could function in a reading/ writing job? Is he artistic or sporting?

Czarcasm

Cantremember wrote: »

I'm curious about your description. In his exams he had a reader and a scribe? Someone who read the exam and who wrote the answers? What course us had following do you know? I'm curious as to his career: I don't see how he could function in a reading/ writing job? Is he artistic or sporting?

I'm self-employed as an IT consultant, I've written technical manuals and worked in software development for nearly 20 years. I was diagnosed as severe dyslexic at seven years of age, but back then (30 years ago), there wasn't as much known about dyslexia as there is now, and aids like scribes in an exam weren't an option. They don't do the work for you either, they literally help you read the questions and then transcribe your answers.

I've done a number of third level courses since I completed my leaving certificate, worked in top level management in various MNCs, and now work in a voluntary capacity with a number of organisations as a way of giving them opportunities I hadn't access to at the time, so that they can actually reach out to more people who would benefit from the services they provide.

I'm neither artistic nor sporting. However I'm fluent in seven other languages besides English and Irish through which I was raised.

I'm also able to spot the spelling errors in your post. Just making you aware of the fact, there's a difference between dyslexia and simple carelessness caused by lack of attention to detail. I abhor spelling and grammar pedantry though, so I'll let you go back over your own post rather than do your work for you.

byhookorbycrook

He could read and write, of course, but not as quickly as his peers so would have been at a disadvantage in a timed exam in secondary. Don't want to give too much away to protect his confidentiality so will just say IT, following other people with dyslexia such as Steve Jobs.
Most children with dyslexia learn strategies to cope and a guy with his IQ ( in the high gifted range) would have had many, many strategies he worked out as well as ones he learned in school.

steddyeddy

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm self-employed as an IT consultant, I've written technical manuals and worked in software development for nearly 20 years. I was diagnosed as severe dyslexic at seven years of age, but back then (30 years ago), there wasn't as much known about dyslexia as there is now, and aids like scribes in an exam weren't an option. They don't do the work for you either, they literally help you read the questions and then transcribe your answers.

I've done a number of third level courses since I completed my leaving certificate, worked in top level management in various MNCs, and now work in a voluntary capacity with a number of organisations as a way of giving them opportunities I hadn't access to at the time, so that they can actually reach out to more people who would benefit from the services they provide.

I'm neither artistic nor sporting. However I'm fluent in seven other languages besides English and Irish through which I was raised.

I'm also able to spot the spelling errors in your post. Just making you aware of the fact, there's a difference between dyslexia and simple carelessness caused by lack of attention to detail. I abhor spelling and grammar pedantry though, so I'll let you go back over your own post rather than do your work for you.

Wow impressive man. Fair play.

Cantremember

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm self-employed as an IT consultant, I've written technical manuals and worked in software development for nearly 20 years. I was diagnosed as severe dyslexic at seven years of age, but back then (30 years ago), there wasn't as much known about dyslexia as there is now, and aids like scribes in an exam weren't an option. They don't do the work for you either, they literally help you read the questions and then transcribe your answers.

I've done a number of third level courses since I completed my leaving certificate, worked in top level management in various MNCs, and now work in a voluntary capacity with a number of organisations as a way of giving them opportunities I hadn't access to at the time, so that they can actually reach out to more people who would benefit from the services they provide.

I'm neither artistic nor sporting. However I'm fluent in seven other languages besides English and Irish through which I was raised.

I'm also able to spot the spelling errors in your post. Just making you aware of the fact, there's a difference between dyslexia and simple carelessness caused by lack of attention to detail. I abhor spelling and grammar pedantry though, so I'll let you go back over your own post rather than do your work for you.

Oh dear me. There's also a difference between reality and jumping to conclusions. If you wrote technical manuals how did your dyslexia affect that? Just asking. I couldn't see any spelling errors btw.

Cantremember

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

He could read and write, of course, but not as quickly as his peers so would have been at a disadvantage in a timed exam in secondary. Don't want to give too much away to protect his confidentiality so will just say IT, following other people with dyslexia such as Steve Jobs.
Most children with dyslexia learn strategies to cope and a guy with his IQ ( in the high gifted range) would have had many, many strategies he worked out as well as ones he learned in school.

Well IT is a huge area. In coding even a small error can cause malfunctions. Would a dyslexic person misread or mistype more than a non dyslexic? Or is it just a timing thing?

Mardy Bum

Cantremember wrote: »

Oh dear me. There's also a difference between reality and jumping to conclusions. If you wrote technical manuals how did your dyslexia affect that? Just asking. I couldn't see any spelling errors btw.

Just because someone is dyslexic doesn't mean they are incapable of spelling. W.B. Yeats was most likely dyslexic and look at his career.

Czarcasm

Cantremember wrote: »

Oh dear me. There's also a difference between reality and jumping to conclusions. If you wrote technical manuals how did your dyslexia affect that? Just asking. I couldn't see any spelling errors btw.

It makes it a little more difficult is all. Dyslexia also affects my comprehension and expression (euphemisms can sometimes be difficult as I read them literally).

A mini-tape recorder dictaphone was my best friend in college and university where I could record lectures and then transcribe them at night while also studying and re-writing my notes in my own words the same as you would have done.

Nowadays I just use my phone to record meetings and transcribe notes thereafter (and I always make my clients aware that I am recording the meeting, none have ever had an issue with this). I also write lengthy reports and still dabble in web and software development, engineering custom solutions for some clients where they're needed.

Cantremember wrote: »

Well IT is a huge area. In coding even a small error can cause malfunctions. Would a dyslexic person misread or mistype more than a non dyslexic? Or is it just a timing thing?

Not necessarily, some programming languages are actually much easier to grasp for dyslexic people than people who are not dyslexic, a bit like the way Chinese was an easier language for me to grasp than English -


http://www.care2.com/causes/can-learning-japanese-or-chinese-help-dyslexia.html


I remember being in sixth class in Primary school and we had a sub-teacher in for a couple of months. I had stayed back in fifth class as my mother wanted us all in a row when it came to passing our books down. So in came this guy anyway and every so often when he was explaining something to the class he'd look at me and go -

"You know all this already Czarcasm..."

I just thought to myself -

"Dude, I have no idea what you're talking about?"

I only figured it out later that someone must have told him I was staying back in sixth class and not fifth, but he was a really nice guy and I didn't want to be a prick so I just stayed a week ahead of him in the book so that every time he'd say "You know all this already Czarcasm", I'd just nod and say nothing.

If I was back there now I'd encourage any child to speak up for themselves and don't be afraid to tell their teacher if they're having difficulties, because as brilliant as some teachers are, and as much as teacher training methods have moved on to spot the early signs of cognitive and learning disabilities, they're still not capable of mind reading!

Piliger

K-9 wrote: »

Oh a truther. If it's a myth I'm sure you'll have loads of objective research saying it is.

Oh you mean like the self serving evidence posted by teachers and carried out by educationalists with vested interests ? Oh yeah.