There's no academic difference between working class and middle class children

steddyeddy

You can't describe a child's academic ability accurately by a socio economic class IMHO. You also can't judge a child by his/her parents attendance or non attendance at college. Yet this is something I see on Boards again and again.

Some threads focusing on education display the mantra "working class children do not want to go onto further education". I sometimes have to demonstrate to students and have some teaching responsibility at third level. Many of these students include working class mature students and as you will be aware many sub mature students come from middle class families. The mature students went to crap schools and were told that they shouldn't aspire to college (code for the teachers didn't want to teach them) and some of the less bright middle class students encountered the opposite upbringing and got to college (and later dropped out/failed).

The simple fact is many working class students should be there and there are many middle class students who shouldn't be there. If working class students aren't getting to college it's because of environment and not academic ability and because they hear some idiots (including their teachers sometimes) "working class students don't want to go to college.

We're approaching 2015 we have to stop defining the academic ability of children by the social class they were born into. This thread isn't my way of saying that middle class parents should stop giving their kids the best start in life I'm simply saying that academic ability is down unrelated to the class you are born into . We also need to bring up the standards of all schools to match the standards of the better schools in the country.

FloatingVoter

Its 10 to 1 in the AM and you're writing an essay ? Beer up.

Links234

steddyeddy wrote: »

You can't describe a child's academic ability accurately by a class IMHO.

But what the child's name was Tyler? :pac:

steddyeddy

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Its 10 to 1 in the AM and you're writing an essay ? Beer up.

That's tomorrow night

kneemos

Presumably what people mean is that lower income equates to lower academic achievements.

steddyeddy

kneemos wrote: »

Presumably what people mean is that lower income equates to lower academic achievements.

Yes indeed based on the inability to afford the same schools.

Dowl88

Yawn.

kneemos

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes indeed based on the inability to afford the same schools.

Uh huh.

steddyeddy

Dowl88 wrote: »

Yawn.

Academic ability can also be determined by the ability to understand my post

longhalloween

Jared Diamond said that the difference in ability is due to the willingness of parents to encourage their children to study, and to pay for summer camps and learning resources.

catonthewire

I grew up in a working class family, my parents and four of my older siblings were denied access to higher education by the virtue of the fact they were working class..

My parents actively encouraged myself and three siblings to strive hard to gain qualifications, they both worked two jobs too cover the extra costs...
At school it really pissed me off the number of classmates, who were not capable of handling the grammar school curriculum, but their parents paid for the privlidge..

My own children thankfuly were allowed automatic access to grammar school , then, further education at college level...
Class should never dictate a child's education...

Rothmans

steddyeddy wrote: »

Academic ability can also be determined by the ability to understand my post

I don't think that's his problem.

kneemos

Think you're being a bit pedantic.Most people would be aware that it's the background and not the kids fault.

How Soon Is Now

Jesus all the nerds are out tonight!.

kneemos

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Jesus all the nerds are out tonight!.

You're the one talking to Jesus.

steddyeddy

longhalloween wrote: »

Jared Diamond said that the difference in ability is due to the willingness of parents to encourage their children to study, and ABILITY to pay for summer camps and learning resources.

fIXED

How Soon Is Now

kneemos wrote: »

You're the one talking to Jesus.

He be the only one who listens in these parts anyway.....

longhalloween

steddyeddy wrote: »

fIXED

Yeah, that's it.

What's you obsession with this topic? Most of your previous posts have been in identical AH threads.

steddyeddy

kneemos wrote: »

Think you're being a bit pedantic.Most people would be aware that it's the background and not the kids fault.

You would be surpirsed Kneemos. I represent HEAR schools the odd time and some of the older middle class believe that it's a it's correlation between a disadvantaged (relatively speaking) background and educational deficiency rather than causation. It may be true that the synchronicity between those two events might blur the individualing of either individualing but it is true to say that we have clear evidence otherwise.

anncoates

steddyeddy wrote: »

You can't describe a child's academic ability accurately by a socio economic class .

Not inherently but you can easily predict skewed educational outcomes by the relative environmental differences: family educational precedents; home encouragement and the school environment.

steddyeddy

longhalloween wrote: »

Yeah, that's it.

What's you obsession with this topic? Most of your previous posts have been in identical AH threads.

I post on the subject because there are a lot who think otherwise. It's like my threads on anti vaccination and creationists. Fallacy.

steddyeddy

anncoates wrote: »

Not inherently but you can easily predict skewed educational outcome by the relative environmental differences: family educational precedents; home encouragement and the school environment.

Yes that's my point. Unfortunately there are many who think it's inherent and we shouldn't be fighting against the tide.

pablo128

I'll start by saying I'm no expert on the subject. My 5 yr old daughter was born into a vicious recession, with both of her parents being made redundant before she was 6 months old. Obviously things were tough money wise for the first few years, though I'll admit we are doing ok now.
As soon as she could talk, we were teaching her the 123's and abc's. She could read and write before she started preschool. She finished junior infants there in June. Most of the kids in her class had a reading level of 5 or 6. She had a reading level of 18. It just goes to show that education starts at home.

steddyeddy

pablo128 wrote: »

I'll start by saying I'm no expert on the subject. My 5 yr old daughter was born into a vicious recession, with both of her parents being made redundant before she was 6 months old. Obviously things were tough money wise for the first few years, though I'll admit we are doing ok now.
As soon as she could talk, we were teaching her the 123's and abc's. She could read and write before she started preschool. She finished junior infants there in June. Most of the kids in her class had a reading level of 5 or 6. She had a reading level of 18. It just goes to show that education starts at home.

Well done Pablo and best of luck with your daughter. That's exactly why I point out that ability to pay is more accurate than willingness. Many excellent parents simply haven't the money to send their kids to summer schools.

My dad wasn't around much but I was luckily very clever and always asked questions. My uncle was an electrical engineer and always encouraged me to think.

Annasopra

steddyeddy wrote: »

You can't describe a child's academic ability accurately by a socio economic class IMHO. You also can't judge a child by his/her parents attendance or non attendance at college. Yet this is something I see on Boards again and again.

Some threads focusing on education display the mantra "working class children do not want to go onto further education". I sometimes have to demonstrate to students and have some teaching responsibility at third level. Many of these students include working class mature students and as you will be aware many sub mature students come from middle class families. The mature students went to crap schools and were told that they shouldn't aspire to college (code for the teachers didn't want to teach them) and some of the less bright middle class students encountered the opposite upbringing and got to college (and later dropped out/failed).

The simple fact is many working class students should be there and there are many middle class students who shouldn't be there. If working class students aren't getting to college it's because of environment and not academic ability and because they hear some idiots (including their teachers sometimes) "working class students don't want to go to college.

We're approaching 2015 we have to stop defining the academic ability of children by the social class they were born into. This thread isn't my way of saying that middle class parents should stop giving their kids the best start in life I'm simply saying that academic ability is down unrelated to the class you are born into . We also need to bring up the standards of all schools to match the standards of the better schools in the country.

Of course and we still have to look at why certain schools send very few people to universities.

There are many reasons that can be posited; generational poverty and unemployment, a culture of exclusion within the universities, a culture within the working class communities of not going to university, schools in middle class areas being better resourced in terms of numbers of teachers and range of subjects, families in middle class areas better off financially and able to afford grinds etc.

Kathleen Lynch has written quite a lot on educational equality

Mardy Bum

Parenting has the biggest effect on a child's education and that is cold hard science. /thread.

steddyeddy

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Of course but we still have to look at why certain schools send very few people to universities.

There are many reasons that can be posited; generational poverty and unemployment, a culture of exclusion within the universities, a culture within the working class communities of not going to university, schools in middle class areas being better resourced in terms of numbers of teachers and range of subjects, families in middle class areas better off financially and able to afford grinds etc.

I agree with all of what you said but you would be surprised to hear some people will say "working class children don't want to go to third level education". That to them explains the imbalance completely.

How Soon Is Now

I hope my son ends up just like me!

Then your all ****ed :pac:

steddyeddy

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Parenting has the biggest effect on a child's education and that is cold hard science. /thread.

Yes indeed it has (both willingness to provide and ability to provide) but we should put resources in place to counter that.

steddyeddy

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Of course and we still have to look at why certain schools send very few people to universities.

There are many reasons that can be posited; generational poverty and unemployment, a culture of exclusion within the universities, a culture within the working class communities of not going to university, schools in middle class areas being better resourced in terms of numbers of teachers and range of subjects, families in middle class areas better off financially and able to afford grinds etc.

Kathleen Lynch has written quite a lot on educational equality

I met miss Lynch many times. A very genuine woman.

anncoates

Think the point is that a lot of working class children are born into an environment where parents - not through any fault of their own - simply do not have the educational "capital" to overcome the disadvantages posed by violent. crap schools and a hostile external environment to education so despite the fact that inherent academic ability is probably equal, some kids basically need something special to pull off a good university education: expectational ability; inner strength and drive; exceptionally encouraging parents and so on.

Annasopra

steddyeddy wrote: »

I agree with all of what you said but you would be surprised to hear some people will say "working class children don't want to go to third level education". That to them explains the imbalance completely.

In some cases that is true because the University can be a very monocultural place and deeply exclusionary for working class people.

I mean even the issue of accents is fascinating. Walk around UCD and TCD during term and you will hear almost no working class accents.

Annasopra

anncoates wrote: »

Think the point is that a lot of working class children are born into an environment where parents - not through any fault of their own - simply do not have the educational "capital" to overcome the disambiguates posed ny crap schools and a hostile external environment to education so despite the fact that inherent academic ability is probably equal. some kids need something special to pull off a university education: expectational ability; inner strength and drive; very encouraging parents and so on.

Its not just educational "capital" - Its social capital as well.

Get Real

steddyeddy wrote: »

The simple fact is many working class students should be there and there are many middle class students who shouldn't be there.

I couldn't agree more. There are many "working class" students who are intelligent and academic enough to go on to third level education. There are just as many "middle class" children who are less intelligent/ have a bad attitude/behavior who are afforded the privilege of attending university.

There is a very thin line between extra lessons, grinds and encouragement from teachers and not attending third level. There seems to be a perception that those who enter third level education are more intelligent. However, this is not the case.

If we were to put "working class" children through the exact same educational upbringing as "middle class" children, I believe roughly the same results would be achieved. Everything else is an external factor- lack of opportunities, lack of encouragement from teachers etc.

Then of course there are those middle class children who attend college and later drop out, only to be "saved" by private college/ re-applying and payment of fees by parents.

I know of a girl in my college who dropped out, only for her parents to fork out $$$$ for flight school (:rolleyes:) for her. She now has a well paying job. This does not mean shes intelligent, it just means that if a working class student dropped out due to personal circumstances, they'd be seen as not good enough/ unsuitable whereas the girl seems like she "achieved" her goal.

This hides the fact that there really is no academic difference in my opinion, just a difference in financial background/ attitudes and status (people who surprisingly will go to college/ pay for private tuition to be "seen" to be academic)

people may disagree, just my tuppence

steddyeddy

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

In some cases that is true because the University can be a very monocultural place and deeply exclusionary for working class people.

Well speaking as an academic the people I want in third level are people who have the intelligence to be there. Currently we have some children who think that their class entitles them to college. We need exclude those who shouldn't be there and try to encourage those who should. As regard the mono culture I think Trinity and UCD don't deserve the stick they get sometimes.

_Whimsical_

steddyeddy wrote: »

We're approaching 2015 we have to stop defining the academic ability of children by the social class they were born into. This thread isn't my way of saying that middle class parents should stop giving their kids the best start in life I'm simply saying that academic ability is down unrelated to the class you are born into . We also need to bring up the standards of all schools to match the standards of the better schools in the country.

I don't think anyone has ever suggested than children from working class backgrounds are less academically capable or intelligent than children from other classes. However a lot of factors outside of innate ability determine academic success. Sadly some of those factors are associated with class, it's not a question of opinion ,it's demonstrable,well researched fact. Poverty would be one of those factors. Not having parents who can pay for grinds or support you through college makes it much harder to go to college and stay there.

anncoates

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its not just educational "capital" - Its social capital as well.

Let's not split hairs. You know what I mean.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well done Pablo and best of luck with your daughter. That's exactly why I point out that ability to pay is more accurate than willingness. Many excellent parents simply haven't the money to send their kids to summer schools.

My dad wasn't around much but I was luckily very clever and always asked questions. My uncle was an electrical engineer and always encouraged me to think.

I sound like a tosser here. I meant I was very curious. I don't believe there is a huge disparity of intelligence between children.

Annasopra

anncoates wrote: »

Let's not split hairs. You know what I mean.

Yes I do. I think it needs broadening though. Educational disadvantage needs to be looked at on a broad level.

anncoates

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes I do. I think it needs broadening though. Educational disadvantage needs to be looked at on a broad level.

I intimated that educational disadvantage was also social: hostile local environment, violent schools etc.

Annasopra

steddyeddy wrote: »

I sound like a tosser here. I meant I was very curious. I don't believe there is a huge disparity of intelligence between children.

Have you ever read any work in this area by Professor Kathleen Lynch? It would probably interest you a lot

Annasopra

anncoates wrote: »

I intimated that educational disadvantage was also social: hostile local environment, violent schools etc.

Of course - Im not disagreeing with you at all.

steddyeddy

Get Real wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. There are many "working class" students who are intelligent and academic enough to go on to third level education. There are just as many "middle class" children who are less intelligent/ have a bad attitude/behavior who are afforded the privilege of attending university.

There is a very thin line between extra lessons, grinds and encouragement from teachers and not attending third level. There seems to be a perception that those who enter third level education are more intelligent. However, this is not the case.

If we were to put "working class" children through the exact same educational upbringing as "middle class" children, I believe roughly the same results would be achieved. Everything else is an external factor- lack of opportunities, lack of encouragement from teachers etc.

Then of course there are those middle class children who attend college and later drop out, only to be "saved" by private college/ re-applying and payment of fees by parents.

I know of a girl in my college who dropped out, only for her parents to fork out $$$$ for flight school (:rolleyes:) for her. She now has a well paying job. This does not mean shes intelligent, it just means that if a working class student dropped out due to personal circumstances, they'd be seen as not good enough/ unsuitable whereas the girl seems like she "achieved" her goal.

This hides the fact that there really is no academic difference in my opinion, just a difference in financial background/ attitudes and status (people who surprisingly will go to college/ pay for private tuition to be "seen" to be academic)

people may disagree, just my tuppence

I'll enlarge on this post later but you are 100% on the money in my experience. I would be in the school of science. The drop out rate is amongst the highest of any course. There are far too many students who simply shouldn't be there and are only there because they feel entitled to be there or their parents pushed them in (the latter is quite cruel on kids imo).

There are many working class mature students who return to college and get firsts. In fact these students are over represented in students who get firsts.

Uni should be about one thing, your interest in your chosen subject. Unfortunately it's currently about what social group you belong to followed closely by your interest in your chosen subject.

steddyeddy

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Have you ever read any work in this area by Professor Kathleen Lynch? It would probably interest you a lot

Yes I have it's excellent. I also read "The Brain That Changes Itself". It deals with recent evidence that our brain can adapt and increase generate an increase in intelligence.

anncoates

steddyeddy wrote: »

As regard the mono culture I think Trinity and UCD don't deserve the stick they get sometimes.

As far as I could ascertain (personally/anecdotally) working class students were a rarity in my time in trinity but I very rarely encountered snobbery or discouragement it must be said.

steddyeddy

anncoates wrote: »

As far as I could ascertain (personally/anecdotally) working class students were a rarity in my time in trinity but I very rarely encountered snobbery or discouragement it must be said.

Trinity does far more for working class students than UCD yet Trinity seems to get more stick.

pablo128

steddyeddy wrote: »

I sound like a tosser here. I meant I was very curious. I don't believe there is a huge disparity of intelligence between children.

No, neither do I. The point I was trying to make is that the parents have a sizeable input into the childs educational development. I'll admit I was decent enough in school, and me and the missus both completed the leaving cert. No chance of going third level, as both of us are from large families where financially it wouldn't have been possible.(Truth be told I wanted to be a mechanic anyway).
A family friend has a daughter the same age as my daughter, and in fact is in the same school as her. Without trying to sound condescending, she wouldn't have put in as much effort with reading, etc as we did, and it showed in the end of term reports. That doesn't mean one child is more intelligent than the other though.

Annasopra

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes I have it's excellent. I also read "The Brain That Changes Itself". It deals with recent evidence that our brain can adapt and increase generate an increase in intelligence.

I took some classes on education and equality under her. Shes fascinating.

steddyeddy

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I took some classes on education and equality under her. Shes fascinating.

I never took her classes but she is a lovely woman.

Annasopra

steddyeddy wrote: »

I never took her classes but she is a lovely woman.

She is. But fierce too. I did 3 modules under her which was amazing.

Cookie_Monster

What about the Welfare class?