How should Palestine defend itself?

shedweller

esteve wrote: »

Britain came to the table because they wanted to. Israel does not want to negotiate anywhere outside of their own pre set conditions.

While you may think their tactics are not hurting the enemy, they have killed 50+ IDF soldiers.

Israelis tactics have killed possible 1000+ civilians.

Hamas can only do so much damage. Israel could wipe out Palestine in hours, only to do so would be far more genocidal than what they are undertaking right now.

So instead they do it bit by bit so as to not be accused of genocide. Bastards.
Whats going to be done about these bastards?

Hitchens

esteve wrote: »

Of course they are getting them from somewhere, where else would they be getting them from?!

anywhere? God-knows-where?

comongethappy

esteve wrote: »

Hamas can only do so much damage. Israel could wipe out Palestine in hours, only to do so would be far more genocidal than what they are undertaking right now.

Hamas have fired off 2,500+ rockets in the last few months, to almost no affect.

That's a lot of resources that could be deployed defending Gaza better than the willfully inept attempts they are performing currently.

esteve

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The key difference is that the IDF doesn't use children as human shields whereas Hamas does.

Really, can you show me a picture of some Hamas Militant holding a Palestinian civilian in the form of a shield?

Interestingly, Palestinians don't report this as happening, while Israelis do.

And even if A Hamas militant is surrounded by civilians, how can you justifiably kill the civilans just to get to that militant.

The human shield excuse is just that, an excuse and stems from Israeli PR.

esteve

comongethappy wrote: »

Hamas have fired off 2,500+ rockets in the last 90 days, to almost no affect.

That's a lot of resources that could be deployed defending Gaza better than the willfully inept attempts they are performing currently.

Really, so how they could the use the rockets for if not fire in that way, as that is how the are designed.

Did it ever occur to you that getting your hands on materials to make such a rocket is a lot easier than getting an RPG as you previously suggested?

JeffKenna

Sand wrote: »

Its being reported that Hamas have finally seen reason and are agreeing to an unconditional 3 day ceasefire, with negotiations to take place on making it permanent. They should have agreed to one weeks ago. Quite literally hundreds of lives could have been saved and thousands spared the misery they have suffered. Nothing has been gained that is worth the lives of the Palestinians they so callously sacrificed.

So Israel killed them yet it's the fault of Hamas?

I'm sorry teacher...Tommy made me do it!

comongethappy

esteve wrote: »

Did it ever occur to you that getting your hands on materials to make such a rocket is a lot easier than getting an RPG as you previously suggested?

Do you know that?

An RPG is one of the more cheaper weapons to acquire...

So when the larger rockets are shipped in (the ones not made in gaza), a few manpads & anti-armour weapons wouldn't go amiss.

All available & made under licence in Egypt.
Though as I said, Hamas seem to prefer failure.

Hitchens

JeffKenna wrote: »

So Israel killed them yet it's the fault of Hamas?

are you saying that Hamas are not culpable as well?

Nodin

comongethappy wrote: »

Do you know that?

An RPG is one of the more cheaper weapons to acquire...

So when the larger rockets are shipped in (the ones not made in gaza), a few manpads & anti-armour weapons wouldn't go amiss.

All available & made under licence in Egypt.
Though as I said, Hamas seem to prefer failure.

The vast vast majority of hamas missiles are improvised.

JeffKenna

Hitchens wrote: »

are you saying that Hamas are not culpable as well?

What I'm saying is that the actions of Hamas do not justify the killing of innocent civilians by Israel.

Sand

JeffKenna wrote: »

So Israel killed them yet it's the fault of Hamas?

I'm sorry teacher...Tommy made me do it!

What prevented Hamas from agreeing to a ceasefire weeks ago? Hamas have been very clear previously that they were comfortable with Palestinians being killed and wouldn't agree to an unconditional ceasefire.

Now they have agreed to an unconditional ceasefire. Yes, it is the fault of Hamas as they were launching the rockets that provoked Israeli action and refused to stop firing them when that was all it would take to end Israeli action. Throwing around military firepower in highly populated areas like the Gaza Strip will always lead to casualties - Israel can only mitigate those casualties through careful planning and ROE, it cannot prevent them.

Hamas always had the power to prevent them - simply agree to a ceasefire.

mufflets2

It is my understanding that you do not have a right of defence (I.e. Israel)
While you are an illegal occupier in someone else's country.

Where as , as a resistance organisation to an illegal occupation in your own country (i.e. Hamas) you have a right and an obligation to resist the illegal invaders by any means that you can.

comongethappy

Nodin wrote: »

The vast vast majority of hamas missiles are improvised.

Most but not all.

Their biggest, with 40+KGS of a warhead are not made locally, but shipped in.

They have few though, so are used sparingly.

So why go to the trouble of doing that, but not actually bother to hurt seriously the air & armour of the IDF?

Companies in Egypt have been making a version of the Strella2 SAM system for years, they cost around 10k & will stop any IDF drone right in its tracks as well as any helicopter... Jets have to think twice about flying low..

Unless they really prefer impotency in their attempts to defend Gaza.

shedweller

mufflets2 wrote: »

It is my understanding that you do not have a right of defence (I.e. Israel)
While you are an illegal occupier in someone else's country.

Where as , as a resistance organisation to an illegal occupation in your own country (i.e. Hamas) you have a right and an obligation to resist the illegal invaders by any means that you can.

Now that i would like to see "in writing" if you get my meaning!

Sand

mufflets2 wrote: »

It is my understanding that you do not have a right of defence (I.e. Israel)
While you are an illegal occupier in someone else's country.

Where as , as a resistance organisation to an illegal occupation in your own country (i.e. Hamas) you have a right and an obligation to resist the illegal invaders by any means that you can.

That's a useful point. I'm pretty sure no one has brought that to the attention of the IDF. Tweet it to them, they'll probably withdraw immediately when its made clear to them that they have no right to defend themselves. It will be frightfully embarrassing for them that they are in breach of the rules of the internet, but the internet is never wrong.

mufflets2

shedweller wrote: »

Now that i would like to see "in writing" if you get my meaning!

Sounds logical to me
Which part exactly??

Sand

comongethappy wrote: »

Companies in Egypt have been making a version of the Strella2 SAM system for years, they cost around 10k & will stop any IDF drone right in its tracks as well as any helicopter... Jets have to think twice about flying low..

Unless they really prefer impotency.

In fairness, Egypt is highly unlikely to supply Hamas with any weaponry that goes above sticks and stones. Egypt and a lot the surrounding Arab regimes view Hamas as being "fellow travellers" with the Jihadists that have emerged in Libya, Syria and Iraq. They're viewed as a much greater threat to the Arab states than Israel is.

The real challenge for a militant group like Hamas is that military resistance to Israel is basically taking on Israel on the field where its advantage over the Palestinians is overwhelming. Even if Hamas did have better kit, the Israelis would simply adjust tactics, or rush over newer and better equipment.

What Hamas should do is look to engage Israel politically, but a militant group that is viewed as a threat by all its neighbours is not really well equipped to engage in a political struggle. Hence the futile military struggle which essentially hands victory to Israel before a shot is fired. The Palestinians could try different strategies, but Hamas cant. Its locked into militant action, right down to its DNA.

mufflets2

Sand wrote: »

That's a useful point. I'm pretty sure no one has brought that to the attention of the IDF. Tweet it to them, they'll probably withdraw immediately when its made clear to them that they have no right to defend themselves. It will be frightfully embarrassing for them that they are in breach of the rules of the internet, but the internet is never wrong.

While I am at it should I point out that the occupation, land theft, dividing wall , apartheid rule, blocade of gaze, bombing of civilians are also illegal,

Do you reckon that I could make a difference to this rogue criminal state ? Yes?

shedweller

mufflets2 wrote: »

Sounds logical to me
Which part exactly??

All?

mufflets2

shedweller wrote: »

All?

I am not an authority on international law , however do you think that the Germans could credibly claim the right of defence when they were illegally occupying France and retaliating gainst civilians in response to attacks from the French resistance?????

shedweller

mufflets2 wrote: »

I am not an authority on international law , however do you think that the Germans could credibly claim the right of defence when they were illegally occupying France and retaliating gainst civilians in response to attacks from the French resistance?????

That would be a resounding no! But this is israel we are talking about. They can do whatever they like and we just stand idly by for fear of upsetting them or being called an anti semite.
*****, i have no time for them whatsoever.

mufflets2

shedweller wrote: »

That would be a resounding no! But this is israel we are talking about. They can do whatever they like and we just stand idly by for fear of upsetting them or being called an anti semite.
*****, i have no time for them whatsoever.

Yes you are right ,
The issue is simple
And is only complicated by media propaganda and Israeli supreme power of influence and false communication.

Nodin

comongethappy wrote: »

Most but not all.

Their biggest, with 40+KGS of a warhead are not made locally, but shipped in.

They have few though, so are used sparingly.

So why go to the trouble of doing that, but not actually bother to hurt seriously the air & armour of the IDF?

Companies in Egypt have been making a version of the Strella2 SAM system for years, they cost around 10k & will stop any IDF drone right in its tracks as well as any helicopter... Jets have to think twice about flying low..

Unless they really prefer impotency in their attempts to defend Gaza.

I presume there are reasons they don't have them outside the realm of conspiracy theory.

Sand

The reasons for Hamas agreeing to an unconditional ceasefire are more apparent when the number of daily rocket attacks into Israel from Gaza is checked. Hamas were regularly firing well over 100 rockets a day throughout July - as high as 197 on the 10th July, as low as 110 on July 16th, the day before the ground invasion. Barring a short spike to 154 on July 21st, Hamas rocket attacks have been on a steady decline as the IDF has pushed them back.

It also appears the Hamas strategy to launch surprise attacks on Israeli rear area units using their tunnel network has utterly failed. No successful attack was launched from the tunnel network (several unsuccessful attacks were defeated) and the Israelis are steadily demolishing the network and will continue to do so through the ceasefire. With no power, no water, no sewage, no meaningful support from Egypt and the Hamas footsoldiers increasingly not turning up to fight /fire rockets at Israel, the game is up for Hamas.

It's actually more depressing - it would have been hoped for that some aspect of the Hamas leadership had decided to prioritise the interests of the Palestinian people, but it seems they are only reacting to being militarily defeated by the IDF. That's depressing because it doesn't indicate any evolution in Hamas. They'll just rebuild their rocket stocks and go for another ultimately futile round for confrontation with the IDF in 3-4 years time. Meanwhile, someone else will have to pick up the pieces of the ruins of Gaza and its people.

mufflets2

Sand wrote: »

The reasons for Hamas agreeing to an unconditional ceasefire are more apparent when the number of daily rocket attacks into Israel from Gaza is checked. Hamas were regularly firing well over 100 rockets a day throughout July - as high as 197 on the 10th July, as low as 110 on July 16th, the day before the ground invasion. Barring a short spike to 154 on July 21st, Hamas rocket attacks have been on a steady decline as the IDF has pushed them back.

It also appears the Hamas strategy to launch surprise attacks on Israeli rear area units using their tunnel network has utterly failed. No successful attack was launched from the tunnel network (several unsuccessful attacks were defeated) and the Israelis are steadily demolishing the network and will continue to do so through the ceasefire. With no power, no water, no sewage, no meaningful support from Egypt and the Hamas footsoldiers increasingly not turning up to fight /fire rockets at Israel, the game is up for Hamas.

It's actually more depressing - it would have been hoped for that some aspect of the Hamas leadership had decided to prioritise the interests of the Palestinian people, but it seems they are only reacting to being militarily defeated by the IDF. That's depressing because it doesn't indicate any evolution in Hamas. They'll just rebuild their rocket stocks and go for another ultimately futile round for confrontation with the IDF in 3-4 years time. Meanwhile, someone else will have to pick up the pieces of the ruins of Gaza and its people.

You seem to be implying that Hamas are in some way responsible for the war crimes being perpetrated against the Gazan people by the foreign invaders.

Any country would have a violent resistant organisation (ineffective and all as they are considering the enemy)
While they are are being illegally occupied , oppressed, and having their land slowly stolen day by day by an illegal foreign power???

shedweller

mufflets2 wrote: »

You seem to be implying that Hamas are in some way responsible for the war crimes being perpetrated against the Gazan people by the foreign invaders.

Any country would have a violent resistant organisation (ineffective and all as they are considering the enemy)
While they are are being illegally occupied , oppressed, and having their land slowly stolen day by day by an illegal foreign power???

This is, yet again, the big massive elephant in the room. This is the point where all this nonsense started. There was no israel before the war and now there is.
There was a Palestine before the war and now there isn't.
A child could see the pattern here.

comongethappy

mufflets2 wrote: »

You seem to be implying that Hamas are in some way responsible for the war crimes being perpetrated against the Gazan people by the foreign invaders.

I don't think he's saying that at all.

The thread is "how can the Palestinians defend themselves".
It should be relatively dispassionate..... There are plenty of other threads on the conflict to be hysterical on.

Hamas, despite having the money & 10,000+ fighters seem so utterly bereft of ideas & tactics.

This 'strategy' of lobbing thousands of rockets at Israel... while at the same time doing very little to engage the IDF when the do actually invade .

Such ineptitude after decades of doing the same seems like its intentional, especially when better military alternatives are available.

Its not beyond the realm of possibility that Hamas don't want to defend Gaza effectively

shedweller

The only way Palestine can defend itself now is to gain global support for it. israels army is very well equipped and funded by the US also so Palestine hasn't a hope against that. All it can do now is to get us, the general public, to make some sort of stand against this nonsense.
They have a right to exist as much as any of us and to stand idly by and let them be exterminated is to be complicit in their genocide. And it is genocide, a kind of slow motion genocide. Shame on us for letting israel away with this for so long.

mufflets2

comongethappy wrote: »

I don't think he's saying that at all.

The thread is "how can the Palestinians defend themselves".
It should be relatively dispassionate..... There are plenty of other threads on the conflict to be hysterical on.

Hamas, despite having the money & 10,000+ fighters seem so utterly bereft of ideas & tactics.

This 'strategy' of lobbing thousands of rockets at Israel... while at the same time doing very little to engage the IDF when the do actually invade .

Such ineptitude after decades of doing the same seems like its intentional, especially when better military alternatives are available.

Its not beyond the realm of possibility that Hamas don't want to defend Gaza effectively

I don't think that you understand the situation, are you suggesting that Hamas (with their comparatively defenceless resistance resources) would be more effective by engaging the illegal and ruthless superpower in a more direct way???


I think that the more relevant question is , how does Israel manage to commit war crimes against helpless people and have the media power to get many people debating on what Hamas said or did not say or the fine points of how the Palestinians should be defending themselves.

They cannot, they are being bombed from the air, they need outside help

It amazes me , can you imagine a debate "discussing" the tactics being implemented by the French resistance when the Germans were illegally occupying that country. ????
And committing war crimes???

comongethappy

mufflets2 wrote: »

they need outside help

They do get outside military help, not a huge amount, but a significant amount.
I mean, their rifles don't grow out of the ground.

Their choice though to prioritise thousands of useless rockets over more useful weapons is what seems so ridiculously stupid