How should Palestine defend itself?

wes

Hitchens wrote: »

The Jews are a race, are they not?

Read up about the Khazar Jewish Kingdom and the Berber Jewish tribes.

Hitchens

comongethappy wrote: »

Is a black Jew & a white Jew the same race?

is a black Irishman and a white Irishman the same race?

tayto lover

wes wrote: »

That is only recent stuff from the last few weeks. I could keep going for a very long time, if I started to really look for stuff. It interesting how we have extremists in Israel, in pretty high up positions, I might add, who easily say stuff just as bad as any extremist in Hamas, and yet they are let off the hook for some reason.

Not much different from the Nazi thinking really.
Shocking stuff.

shedweller

Hitchens wrote: »

The Jews are a race, are they not?

Thats like saying catholics or protestants are a race. When someone says they are jewish they mean their religious beliefs are jewish. There are (for example) catholics of many races all over the world.
So if the jews can have a homeland... where does it stop??

jank

shedweller wrote: »

Thats like saying catholics or protestants are a race. When someone says they are jewish they mean their religious beliefs are jewish. There are (for example) catholics of many races all over the world.
So if the jews can have a homeland... where does it stop??

It is well known and common to refer to Jews as a people rather than a religion. Once can be an atheist but identify themselves as Jewish. The Shoah was not carried out against the Jewish people because they had a different religion, it was carried out because certain Germans with the help of many eastern Europeans thought they were sub-human. It is correct to refer to the Jewish people as a race. Many a secular Jewish atheist ended up in the gas chambers.

maccored

Sand wrote: »

Israel offers ceasefires. Hamas breaks them.

... and here was me thinking it was Israel who broke the ceasefires in 2008 and 2012. silly me.

wes

jank wrote: »

It is well known and common to refer to Jews as a people rather than a religion. Once can be an atheist but identify themselves as Jewish. The Shoah was not carried out against the Jewish people because they had a different religion, it was carried out because certain Germans with the help of many eastern Europeans thought they were sub-human. It is correct to refer to the Jewish people as a race. Many a secular Jewish atheist ended up in the gas chambers.

By that logic Muslims are a race, as the Serbian forces referred to all Bosnians as Muslim, regardless of there actual Religious beliefs.....

Gringo180

maccored wrote: »

... and here was me thinking it was Israel who broke the ceasefires in 2008 and 2012. silly me.

Israel also started this conflict, they fabricated lies that Hamas kidnapped and murdered those young kids. A disgusting lie to justify there continuing ethnic cleaning of the Palestinians.

tayto lover

I don't give a damn what religions are involved in this.
Israel is murdering innocent people many of them children.
The whole religious thing is bullsh1t to me.

Gringo180

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't give a damn what religions are involved in this.
Israel is murdering innocent people many of them children.
The whole religious thing is bullsh1t to me.

Watching the news last night was harrowing, all those kids that managed to survive in the hospital in total shock, most also with serious injuries, not even taking into account the psychological effects that come along with it, its heart breaking, and then you have people coming on here trying to justify the Israeli's side of it is frankly disgusting

jank

wes wrote: »

By that logic Muslims are a race, as the Serbian forces referred to all Bosnians as Muslim, regardless of there actual Religious beliefs.....

Islam is a religion but Jews usually refers to a race. The US Supreme Court agrees with me but I agree that it's confusing and not black and white.

EI_Flyboy

shedweller wrote: »

That's like saying Catholics or protestants are a race. When someone says they are Jewish they mean their religious beliefs are Jewish. There are (for example) Catholics of many races all over the world.
So if the Jews can have a homeland... where does it stop??

No. The reality is Judaism is a religion and the Jewish are a people or a race. Oprah Winfrey is Jewish in the sense that it's her religion but she is not of Jewish descent. She is not Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi or Maghrebi. You may think of it like this, on the British Isles, there are English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh, each of us are arguably a different race but, no matter how uncomfortable the idea is to some, we are all British in the strictest sense of the word. We didn't start out with a unifying religion the way the Jews did, there isn't that confusion of race and religion so you can't really have an atheist Christian in the same way you can have an atheist Jew.

Also, Jews are happy to identify their diaspora as part of their people, especially seeing as they spent so long as only a diaspora without a homeland, unlike a lot of us who just think of ours as "Plastic Paddies" so I can understand the inability to understand this. You could try and wrap your head around it by thinking of some Irish as coming from Co. Liverpool, Co. Birmingham, Co. London, Co. New York, Co. Boston, Co. Australia and CO. NewZealand. It is the fact that we don't identify with our diaspora in the same way the Jews do that means they are a greater and more cohesive political force in the world.

The Jews do have a homeland, that's Israel, that's an inescapable fact. After centuries of being treated badly wherever they go, real or imagined, they've decided to return home after facing being exterminated and wiped from the face of the Earth while the rest of world largely turned a blind eye. That's an extremely strong motivator. It will end when the Israelis feel safe, that's when.

wes

jank wrote: »

Islam is a religion but Jews usually refers to a race. The US Supreme Court agrees with me but I agree that it's confusing and not black and white.

Well, I don't live in the US, so its rulings are irrelevant to me. BTW, the UK considers Sikhs are race as well for example, so yes it is a very confusing subject.

I will say that in some instances, that a Religious group can be considered a race, due to people treating them as such.

FTA69

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

No. The reality is Judaism is a religion and the Jewish are a people or a race. Oprah Winfrey is Jewish in the sense that it's her religion but she is not of Jewish descent.

She is in her hole.

there are English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh, each of us are arguably a different race but, no matter how uncomfortable the idea is to some, we are all British in the strictest sense of the word.

What? Last time I checked Ireland wasn't part of Britain. Britain is a geographic description of an island. The concept of being "British" arose once the English started binding other countries to it via forcible political and economic union. It isn't some cast-iron denotation of the various peoples on these two islands.

The Jews do have a homeland, that's Israel, that's an inescapable fact. After centuries of being treated badly wherever they go, real or imagined, they've decided to return home after facing being exterminated and wiped from the face of the Earth while the rest of world largely turned a blind eye.

The land of Palestine was never a home for those consisting solely of the Jewish faith. The Palestinian people who live there now aren't some sort of invading horde who usurped the Jews, they are people who have always been there but have changed according to different religious and cultural trends in the area surrounding them. In other words, they are as "genetically" or "ethnically" tied to that area as anyone else. Since you're fond of Irish/British analogies; Irish people have undergone a raft of linguistic and cultural changes due to Viking/Norman/English/European colonisation and influence. You'd still be a fool to deny that we as a people are entitled to be there.

What you are saying about anti-Semitic oppression is very true, but why should the Palestinians lose their homeland because of European racism? Why should people who have always been there be relegated to the sidelines to make room for a people who haven't been there in millennia? The notion that migrants from Brooklyn and Siberia have more right to the land than the Palestinians who have always been there is ridiculous, and it's even more ridiculous when it's backed up by a load of Biblical ranting.

Gringo180

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

The Jews do have a homeland, that's Israel, that's an inescapable fact. After centuries of being treated badly wherever they go, real or imagined, they've decided to return home after facing being exterminated and wiped from the face of the Earth while the rest of world largely turned a blind eye. That's an extremely strong motivator. It will end when the Israelis feel safe, that's when.

The one place they were treated as equal was in Palestine were they lived in peace up until the European Zionists went there to take there land through terrorism. On your point of them having a home land, are you talking about going back 2000 years ago, because that is a preposterous argument?

K-9

wes wrote: »

By that logic Muslims are a race, as the Serbian forces referred to all Bosnians as Muslim, regardless of there actual Religious beliefs.....

I wouldn't view Muslims as a race, neither Jewish people, but the problem is a lot of people do, the Holocaust the obvious example in how this goes wrong!

I suppose that is why there is hate crimes based on religion/nationality etc. My way of looking at that is that it's a response to people who do hate creeds/races. It isn't the way I view things, but a hell of a lot of people do go in for lazy generalisations, hence janks point of people murdering atheist Jews because of their race/religion.

EI_Flyboy

FTA69 wrote: »

She is in her hole.

Look, if someone converts to Judaism, they become Jewish much the same way if someone converts to Catholicism, they become Catholic.

FTA69 wrote: »

What? Last time I checked Ireland wasn't part of Britain. Britain is a geographic description of an island. The concept of being "British" arose once the English started binding other countries to it via forcible political and economic union. It isn't some cast-iron denotation of the various peoples on these two islands.

Have you not noticed that this whole geographic area is called the British Isles...? Great Britain is called not "great" because it won a competition but because it's the largest island in the group. You may be thankful that our island is called Ireland and not Lesser Britain or Britain Minor. It's purely a geographical term.

FTA69 wrote: »

The land of Palestine was never a home for those consisting solely of the Jewish faith. The Palestinian people who live there now aren't some sort of invading horde who usurped the Jews, they are people who have always been there but have changed according to different religious and cultural trends in the area surrounding them. In other words, they are as "genetically" or "ethnically" tied to that area as anyone else.

No, Israel is the homeland. I never argued they have a right to be anywhere, they simply are there and that's not going to change.

FTA69 wrote: »

Since you're fond of Irish/British analogies; Irish people have undergone a raft of linguistic and cultural changes due to Viking/Norman/English/European colonisation and influence. You'd still be a fool to deny that we as a people are entitled to be there.

Can you be clearer here, are you saying we don't have a right to be here in Ireland or there in Israel/Palestine?

FTA69 wrote: »

What you are saying about anti-Semitic oppression is very true, but why should the Palestinians lose their homeland because of European racism? Why should people who have always been there be relegated to the sidelines to make room for a people who haven't been there in millennia? The notion that migrants from Brooklyn and Siberia have more right to the land than the Palestinians who have always been there is ridiculous, and it's even more ridiculous when it's backed up by a load of Biblical ranting.

Again, I never tried to justify their presence there. They are are there and this is a fact that must be dealt with if there's to be peace in the region.
***

Gringo180 wrote: »

The one place they were treated as equal was in Palestine were they lived in peace up until the European Zionists went there to take there land through terrorism. On your point of them having a home land, are you talking about going back 2000 years ago, because that is a preposterous argument?

Oh Gringo, haven't you met anyone from that part of the world? There are those who still spit at the mention of Alexander the Great! Just because your understanding of the situation doesn't stretch back 2000 years does not mean there's can't.
***

K-9 wrote: »

I wouldn't view Muslims as a race, neither Jewish people, but the problem is a lot of people do, the Holocaust the obvious example in how this goes wrong!

I suppose that is why there is hate crimes based on religion/nationality etc. My way of looking at that is that it's a response to people who do hate creeds/races. It isn't the way I view things, but a hell of a lot of people do go in for lazy generalisations, hence janks point of people murdering atheist Jews because of their race/religion.

The Jews are a race of people, that's inescapable fact. What needs for there not to be racism and hate crimes is for people to stop using it as an excuse, stop treating each other as lesser or subhuman and just accept that they are equals. That takes education and a removal of thinly veiled racism from all media sources. Who or what are "janks?"
***

There are minimums that need to be set or accepted in any argument in regards to what is reality. None of us can expect reality to change just because we disagree with it. Expecting that everyone else does or should agree with our own particular reality is the cause of situations like this.

Gringo180

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Oh Gringo, haven't you met anyone from that part of the world? There are those who still spit at the mention of Alexander the Great! Just because your understanding of the situation doesn't stretch back 2000 years does not mean there's can't.
***

But most of them are not from that part of the world do you not understand that? Jews from America, Europe, Russia all fled to Palestine and took over there land do you not see whats wrong with that??

FTA69

Look, if someone converts to Judaism, they become Jewish much the same way if someone converts to Catholicism, they become Catholic.

Oprah didn't convert to Judaism. Or at least I can't find anything at all on the internet that says she did.

Have you not noticed that this whole geographic area is called the British Isles...? Great Britain is called not "great" because it won a competition but because it's the largest island in the group. You may be thankful that our island is called Ireland and not Lesser Britain or Britain Minor. It's purely a geographical term.

The term "British" isn't a purely geographical term though. It's a term used to describe a cobbled-together pseudo-nationality based on English domination over its Celtic neighbours. It's purely an extension of Englishness and was a recent concoction used to bolster imperialism. I have no problem admitting geographers often use the term "British Isles" to describe the land masses, but that doesn't make me a "British" person which is something else entirely.

No, Israel is the homeland. I never argued they have a right to be anywhere, they simply are there and that's not going to change.

Israel is a homeland for those born there and those who have settled there. I reject the notion that it is an automatic homeland for every Tom, Dick and Harry who happens to be a certain religion but hasn't dick f*ck all to do with the place in 2000 years. Similarly the notion that I can convert to Judaism and be offered Israeli citizens with more rights than the original inhabitants is repugnant.

The problem with the concept of a "Jewish Homeland" is that it is often coupled with the idea that the Palestinians subsequently don't have as much right to be there as the Jews do.

Can you be clearer here, are you saying we don't have a right to be here in Ireland or there in Israel/Palestine?

I'm saying the Palestinians are genetically akin to the Jews i.e. they have always been in that part of the world and are as intrinsic to the area as the Jews are. In other words, the Holy Land is as much a Palestinian "homeland" as a Jewish one. The fact the Palestinians have undergone cultural and religious changes (i.e. Arabisation) doesn't negate that fact; no more than the fact the Irish have changed immensely over the millennia negates our claim to our own homeland.

Again, I never tried to justify their presence there. They are are there and this is a fact that must be dealt with if there's to be peace in the region.

I agree with you there. A two state solution is the only viable goal I can see.

K-9

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Who or what are "janks?"
***

Em, I was referring to the poster jank on this thread!

EI_Flyboy

Gringo180 wrote: »

But most of them are not from that part of the world do you not understand that? Jews from America, Europe, Russia all fled to Palestine and took over there land do you not see whats wrong with that??

If you go back far enough, they are descended from that part of the world. Ashkenazi roughly means German Jew, Sephardi means Spanish Jew and Mizrahi means Middle Eastern Jew but if you test their DNA they all come from the Levant.

I agree that Jews from all over the world don't really have a right to simply walk into Israel/Palestine but they're not going to suddenly realise this, turn around and apologise, pack up and bugger off. You, I and a whole lot of others telling the Israelis that they have no right to be there is arguing a moot point and one that has no bearing on the solution to the current situation. Israel is there to stay, a working peace is what's needed to put an end to hostilities in the region, that means everyone accepting uncomfortable truths and moving forward from their.

What's really wrong is the death of innocents on both sides. The deaths on the Palestinian side far outweigh those on the Israeli but they're no less acceptable even if they come fewer and further between. At the end of the day a lasting peace is all that matters and for that to happen it has to be accepted that everyone is entitled to a future no matter how they came to be where they are. That's the world over, not just in the Middle East.

EI_Flyboy

FTA69 wrote: »

Oprah didn't convert to Judaism. Or at least I can't find anything at all on the internet that says she did.

True, I couldn't either. I did however find that others had seemed to believe so too, I've no idea where we all get the idea from though.

FTA69 wrote: »

The term "British" isn't a purely geographical term though. It's a term used to describe a cobbled-together pseudo-nationality based on English domination over its Celtic neighbours. It's purely an extension of Englishness and was a recent concoction used to bolster imperialism. I have no problem admitting geographers often use the term "British Isles" to describe the land masses, but that doesn't make me a "British" person which is something else entirely.

I almost wholly agree though it's not just us these British use the term "great" to lord it over, I think they use it to justify or ignore their shameful colonial heritage in front of the rest of the world. Kind of an anti-perjorative as in "were're great so WTF does that make you!?"

FTA69 wrote: »

Israel is a homeland for those born there and those who have settled there. I reject the notion that it is an automatic homeland for every Tom, Dick and Harry who happens to be a certain religion but hasn't dick f*ck all to do with the place in 2000 years. Similarly the notion that I can convert to Judaism and be offered Israeli citizens with more rights than the original inhabitants is repugnant.

The problem with the concept of a "Jewish Homeland" is that it is often coupled with the idea that the Palestinians subsequently don't have as much right to be there as the Jews do.

Well then that automatically makes it the homeland of everyone born there no matter how their parents got there. It is what is, it's their homeland just like Ireland is the homeland or mother country to our diaspora. I never once said to any American who asked me how the mother country is that they've no right to call it that and neither would I dream of it.

I'm not sure the historical area of Israel was ever part of Palestine but the Israelis certainly seem to want to expand to annex it and make Palestine a thing of the past so the whole area is solely Israel.

FTA69 wrote: »

I'm saying the Palestinians are genetically akin to the Jews i.e. they have always been in that part of the world and are as intrinsic to the area as the Jews are. In other words, the Holy Land is as much a Palestinian "homeland" as a Jewish one. The fact the Palestinians have undergone cultural and religious changes (i.e. Arabisation) doesn't negate that fact; no more than the fact the Irish have changed immensely over the millennia negates our claim to our own homeland.

I agree with you there. A two state solution is the only viable goal I can see.

I don't know how much DNA the Jewish people share with the Palestinians but yeas the Holy Land is just as much Palestinian homeland at this point, the Temple Mount as well as other religious sites important to both are in Palestinian hands. I think both sides would argue that they are completely separate on that level as it seems to stem from their religious beliefs more than anything else.

On the point that the Holy Land is as much Palestinian as it is Jewish, I think the only long term(maybe I should say long long term!) solution is a joint Israeli/Palestinian state as it's the only solution that can guarantee a safe secure future for both. It may not be a workable solution right now but if they can ever accept each other as equals then there'd be no need for separate states. That won't happen so long as Israel teaches their kids the Palestinians are a lesser breed in school, it's the petty stuff like that that has to stop for there to be lasting peace.

For Reals

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

You may think of it like this, on the British Isles, there are English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh, each of us are arguably a different race but, no matter how uncomfortable the idea is to some, we are all British in the strictest sense of the word.

Jeez Louise.
Are Canadians and Mexicans also Americans? You would have an easier time convincing me we are all African, based on genealogy. The English have just a smudge more Roman than us any road, but I fail to see the reasoning behind your biblical (Old Testament) gaffe.

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

The Jews do have a homeland, that's Israel, that's an inescapable fact. After centuries of being treated badly wherever they go, real or imagined, they've decided to return home after facing being exterminated and wiped from the face of the Earth while the rest of world largely turned a blind eye. That's an extremely strong motivator. It will end when the Israelis feel safe, that's when.

More absolute baloney.
The main flaw being nobody who was transplanted to the shiny new Israel where even born there, or even their great, great and so on, so any homeland claim in open to derision.
By your point I can carve up Rome or Bethlehem for that matter, for me and mine? And where is the Palestinian 'homeland'? No money, so tough?
Read a book not based on convenient opinion.

bilbot79

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes. When it doesn't put civilians in danger.

This is a luxury they don't have. However the Israelis do have that luxury but don't even exercise it

For Reals

Hitchens wrote: »

where do you think they should go then?

Literally, back where they came from.
Anyone wishing to remain should apply for Palestinian citizenship.

Frank Lee Midere

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

If you go back far enough, they are descended from that part of the world. Ashkenazi roughly means German Jew, Sephardi means Spanish Jew and Mizrahi means Middle Eastern Jew but if you test their DNA they all come from the Levant.

I agree that Jews from all over the world don't really have a right to simply walk into Israel/Palestine but they're not going to suddenly realise this, turn around and apologise, pack up and bugger off. You, I and a whole lot of others telling the Israelis that they have no right to be there is arguing a moot point and one that has no bearing on the solution to the current situation. Israel is there to stay, a working peace is what's needed to put an end to hostilities in the region, that means everyone accepting uncomfortable truths and moving forward from their.

What's really wrong is the death of innocents on both sides. The deaths on the Palestinian side far outweigh those on the Israeli but they're no less acceptable even if they come fewer and further between. At the end of the day a lasting peace is all that matters and for that to happen it has to be accepted that everyone is entitled to a future no matter how they came to be where they are. That's the world over, not just in the Middle East.

Most DNA samples indicate Ashkenazi Jews are European converts from around AD 200.

I agree they are an ethnic group however. That said the claim on Palestine is weak.

Here's an entirely justifiable claim. Palestinian Arabs, particularly Christians,are more likely the descendents of Jews if the time of Jesus than most European Jews I.e converts.

Hitchens

For Reals wrote: »

Literally, back where they came from.

they were born there, ergo that's where they are from

For Reals wrote: »

Anyone wishing to remain should apply for Palestinian citizenship.

there is no Palestine to apply to

Nodin

For Reals wrote: »

Literally, back where they came from.
Anyone wishing to remain should apply for Palestinian citizenship.

I don't think replicating the tragedy of the Palestinian people by forcing it on the Israelis will get anyone anywhere.

shedweller

Hitchens wrote: »

they were born there, ergo that's where they are from



there is no Palestine to apply to

There was though, until someone turfed out a load of people and renamed it israel, agreed on a border and then ignored it and built settlements outside it. And continue to do so with everyones blessing!!

EI_Flyboy

For Reals wrote: »

Jeez Louise.
Are Canadians and Mexicans also Americans? You would have an easier time convincing me we are all African, based on genealogy. The English have just a smudge more Roman than us any road, but I fail to see the reasoning behind your biblical (Old Testament) gaffe.

Well the obvious answer to that is yes, yes they are and so are Argentinians, Brazilians, Chileans, Colombians etc., etc. They all live in America, be that North, South or Central America and that makes them American. If you can't see the obvious truth in that, go talk to some South Americans and a lot of them will tell you they find it annoying when we use "American" solely to refer to U.S. citizens.

For Reals wrote: »

More absolute baloney.
The main flaw being nobody who was transplanted to the shiny new Israel where even born there, or even their great, great and so on, so any homeland claim in open to derision.
By your point I can carve up Rome or Bethlehem for that matter, for me and mine? And where is the Palestinian 'homeland'? No money, so tough?
Read a book not based on convenient opinion.

Right now I feel you're being intentionally asinine and wish that you'd stop.

For Reals wrote: »

Literally, back where they came from.
Anyone wishing to remain should apply for Palestinian citizenship.

Where, the gas chambers? Again you're being silly and unrealistic.
***

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Most DNA samples indicate Ashkenazi Jews are European converts from around AD 200.

I agree they are an ethnic group however. That said the claim on Palestine is weak.

And most native residents of the Aran Islands are apparently more Cromwellian than Irish. Are you going to tell me they're not Irish and don't deserve to live there?

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Here's an entirely justifiable claim. Palestinian Arabs, particularly Christians,are more likely the descendents of Jews if the time of Jesus than most European Jews I.e converts.

They're there, it's moot and not going to change. This has been covered, time to move on from that argument and think of something constructive to say.