How should Palestine defend itself?

mufflets2

What do you think they could do better?

What would you do for example if Israel were illegally occupying Ireland , oppressing us and annexing our land,

Genuine question .

(I think that this is the real problem, because of Israeli influence and p.r. We do not see the Palestinians as folks like ourselves they mostly do not have a spokesman on the news or he looks foreign, unlike the polished performances from the Israeli side)

comongethappy

mufflets2 wrote: »

What do you think they could do better?

What would you do for example if Israel were illegally occupying Ireland , oppressing us and annexing our land,

Genuine question .

- Stop firing rockets....
They don't do anything & invite retaliation.

If the IDF do invade they always do the same.
Arial bombardment followed by tank led ground ops.

Hamas seem disinclined to use IED or mines to blunt the IED advance.
If the have the explosives to make thousands of useless rockets, they can turn the northern km of Gaza into a tank kill zone.

Purchase some more rpg7, they have some & have used to good effect but not enough.... But again, prefer to buy useless rockets.

The IDF use some drones, mostly for surveillance it seems.
Drones are slow, low & manoeuvre poorly.
None can evade the most rudimentary Manpad.
Ditto goes for helicopters.

Again, why do HAMAS fail where other insurgent groups succeed?

mufflets2

comongethappy wrote: »

-

Again, why do HAMAS fail where other insurgent groups succeed?

Mainly I believe because of US and Israeli led propaganda and mis-representation of them stiffling support for them from outside.

Many for example do not Know that, all Hamas and the Palestinians want is what they are entitled to under the law.

I am no authority on the best tactics for guerrilla resistance
however I presume that they are hoping that even the fear of these rockets flying into Israel would sway the Israeli public into demanding an end to the illegal occupation.

I take your point however it must be difficult to find effective resistance strategies against a foe as powerful as Israel.

shedweller

comongethappy wrote: »

They do get outside military help, not a huge amount, but a significant amount.
I mean, their rifles don't grow out of the ground.

Their choice though to prioritise thousands of useless rockets over more useful weapons is what seems so ridiculously stupid

So, what you're saying is that the Palestinians should get and use the best of weaponry. If this is your way of supporting them then I applaud you good sir!

But you're not really. You're towing the party line that israel is right and Palestine is wrong but using lots of words to do it, much like the rest of the world. At the end of the day it cannot be denied how israel was founded and what went on there. The Palestinians were there first and since then they have been subjected to the whims of israel.

For shame.

comongethappy

shedweller wrote: »

You're towing the party line that israel is right and Palestine is wrong but using lots of words to do it, much like the rest of the world. At the end of the day it cannot be denied how israel was founded and what went on there. The Palestinians were there first and since then they have been subjected to the whims of israel.

For shame.

How silly of me!

I had no idea that questioning the willful futility of lobbing thousands of rockets with zero effect when more effective alternatives are available makes me a Zionist shill.

My apologies.... Instead I'll toe the Hamas line that doing the same thing decade after decade will eventually work.

Sand

Mufflets/Shedwaller - can either of you demonstrate how the Hamas campaign over the past month has been militarily successful?

It seems like the ceasefire has broken down even before it really got started. Both sides blaming the other.

irishpancake

Sand wrote: »

Mufflets/Shedwaller - can either of you demonstrate how the Hamas campaign over the past month has been militarily successful?

It seems like the ceasefire has broken down even before it really got started. Both sides blaming the other.

Hamas has self-evidently not been militarily successful, nor could they be.

This is the fourth largest Army in the world, armed and sustained by the World's No. 1 Superpower, to the tune of a further €30 Billion for the 10 years to 2017, more than ever under the Bush Government.

They have a huge Military/Industrial Complex and armaments Industry, exporting technology and sophisticated weapons of destruction everywhere.

They are the No. 1 exporter of drones, which they have used to devastating effect against the civilian population of the lands they illegally occupy, against many UN Resolutions.

Israeli society is highly militarised, in order to protect their continued hegemony in the the former Palestine.

But, despite the best efforts of pro-Israeli and pro-IDF propagandists in the print and broadcast media, on Social Media and here, there is, IMO, a perceptible change in public attitudes toward the Israeli Government and their policies with regard to the Palestinian Refugees they created, without the right of return to their own lands, which they forcibly incarcerate in the largest open-air prison in the world, Gaza and the West Bank.

comongethappy

irishpancake wrote: »

Hamas has self-evidently not been militarily successful, nor could they be.
.

Id argue that they could be more successful.

Either way, if their attempts are futile, why do they pour vast resources into thousands of rockets & millions of tonnes of cement & steel into tunnels?

Instead of choosing defensive tactics & anti air/armour (that absolutely would make the IDF think twice), they engage in a futile offence.

Their military tactical choices leave the gazans all but defenceless.

tayto lover

The IDF don't seem to be a disciplined army at all and remind me of the Black & Tans. They are grand behind all the fire-power from gunships, gunboats and drones but when they come in on the ground Hamas seems well able for them.

mufflets2

Sand wrote: »

Mufflets/Shedwaller - can either of you demonstrate how the Hamas campaign over the past month has been militarily successful?

It seems like the ceasefire has broken down even before it really got started. Both sides blaming the other.

I dont think that you realy understand what is going on

otherwise you would not be asking irrelevent questions
"can either of you demonstrate how the Hamas campaign over the past month has been militarily successful?"

as has been mentioned it hasnt or cant be for the reasons outlined by Irishpancake.

This however suggests to me that you are believing the propaganda and have the wrong end of the stick
"Both sides blaming the other"



there are not two sides to the story or "a pair of them at it"
This is what the US and Israeli superpowered propaganda machine wants you to believe.

The illegal settlements for example are referred to by the media as "Jewish neighbourhoods" sounds nice eh , but not accurate.

Israel Is in breach of more International laws than any other country in the world for their illegal Occupation and land theft in their neighboring country.

They hold the Gazan people in an open air prison with little or no rights and steal more and more of their land weakly during "peace times".
They have no interest in peace and they use the US to block any attempts at peace at the UN.
They are getting everything that they want (more land) as the regular run of the mill "peace times" goes on.

Hamas is, as you would expect under the above circumstances a resistance organisation attempting to expel the illegal invaders by whatever limited means that they have.
However instead of being supported by the outside world they have been successfully vilified due to Israeli influence in US and media.

Again
Hamas and the Palestinians want only what they are entitled to under international law.

If the law were enforced in the region, Israel would be forced to retreat to their own country including all the illegal settlers, they would owe palestein billions in reparations, and all Palestinians illegaly evicted into refugee camps would be allowed home.

There is no doubt as to who owns the land, it has been ruled on and tested in International courts, It belongs to the Indigenous palestinians not Israel

They would no longer be allowed to accept illegal arms from the US and probably have to give up their undeclared nuclear arms.

They are in short a Realy powerful rogue state

mufflets2

tayto lover wrote: »

The IDF don't seem to be a disciplined army at all and remind me of the Black & Tans. They are grand behind all the fire-power from gunships, gunboats and drones but when they come in on the ground Hamas seems well able for them.

The IDF have no honour, they spend most of their time at "War" with women and children, evicting people so that their homes can be demolished or defending illegal settlements or shooting teenagers for throwing stones.

It has to be said however that there are those in the IDF who have refused to serve in the occupied territories,
and airforce officers who have refused to bomb civillian homes from the air.

PS I dont know the details , but I understand that the IDF retreated recently and soiled themselves when they were confronted by an equally well equipped Hezbollah Force

irishpancake

comongethappy wrote: »

Id argue that they could be more successful.

Either way, if their attempts are futile, why do they pour vast resources into thousands of rockets & millions of tonnes of cement & steel into tunnels?

Instead of choosing defensive tactics & anti air/armour (that absolutely would make the IDF think twice), they engage in a futile offence.

Their military tactical choices leave the gazans all but defenceless.

If by "more successful" you mean tactically defeating the IDF in operations which are not futile overt attempted rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, perhaps.

But I think they are probably, cruelly, coldly, calculatedly thinking of the advantage to be gained by the inevitable Israeli Military response, which is guaranteed by such attacks.

The strategy seems to be those who can suffer the most will eventually be winners....and there are precedents.....

which was also a tactic of Irish Revolutionaries, including Hunger Strikes to the death, even after 1916 was a Military Disaster. The same in the 1980 hunger strike strategy which lead to the eventual Settlement and the rise of SF.

But these are no Viet Cong or Viet Minh, who defeated the Armies of Colonial France, and then the US and their Allies.....but they had huge "Cold War" backing from the opponents of the US.

I don't think Hamas has very many Allies, even in the Arab World, particularly since the Democratically Elected Government of Egypt was overthrown in a US-backed Military coup, designed to destroy the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas parent organisation.

comongethappy

irishpancake wrote: »

If by "more successful" you mean tactically defeating the IDF in operations which are not futile overt attempted rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, perhaps.

"More successful" I guess is a relative term.
I mean, inflict heavier casualties on the enemy.
Make the IDF think hard about sending land forces into Gaza.

irishpancake wrote: »

But I think they are probably, cruelly, coldly, calculatedly thinking of the advantage to be gained by the inevitable Israeli Military response, which is guaranteed by such attacks.

The strategy seems to be those who can suffer the most will eventually be winners.

I agree.

It seems to me Hamas measure victory in the amount of Gazan dead.
Something they may share with Israel.

Rightwing

Seems to me Israel wants to kill as many as they can, say the opposite to what they do. Hamas don't seem to care either.

The only losers are civilians.

tayto lover

The International Community have been shown up for what they are i.e. worthless and double speaking.

Rightwing

tayto lover wrote: »

The International Community have been shown up for what they are i.e. worthless and double speaking.

It's all about money for them, and the Palentinians don't have any

mufflets2

Rightwing wrote: »

Seems to me Israel wants to kill as many as they can, say the opposite to what they do. Hamas don't seem to care either.

The only losers are civilians.

I don't really understand what else people think that Hamas should/could be doing? given their resources and given the ruthlessness of the foe.

johnnyskeleton

mufflets2 wrote: »

I don't really understand what else people think that Hamas should/could be doing? given their resources and given the ruthlessness of the foe.

From a political perspectove, hamas arw playing a blinder. In april they made concessions to the (relatively) moderate fatah party and a unity government was formed. And it looked like the palestinian territories were firmly on the road to recognition as a state which in turn would bring in the potential to dismantle the settlements. Hamas were beig politically sidelined (netanyahu wasnt overly happy either). Now, hamas are back in the public spotlight and have he sympathy of the world.

So asking what else hamas coukd do is the wrong question - what else could the palestinian authority do is a more apt question and the answer is pursue the negotiations

mufflets2

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

From a political perspectove, hamas arw playing a blinder. In april they made concessions to the (relatively) moderate fatah party and a unity government was formed. And it looked like the palestinian territories were firmly on the road to recognition as a state which in turn would bring in the potential to dismantle the settlements. Hamas were beig politically sidelined (netanyahu wasnt overly happy either). Now, hamas are back in the public spotlight and have he sympathy of the world.

So asking what else hamas coukd do is the wrong question - what else could the palestinian authority do is a more apt question and the answer is pursue the negotiations

Or perhaps even more relevent

What could/should the world do to stop the illegal massacre of civillians by an illegal invading army in a foreign country who have such media power that they have people discussing what their comparatively helpless victims should be doing better????

sounds to me a bit like discussing what a rape victim said or did not say or was wearing or not wearing,

Rightwing

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

From a political perspectove, hamas arw playing a blinder. In april they made concessions to the (relatively) moderate fatah party and a unity government was formed. And it looked like the palestinian territories were firmly on the road to recognition as a state which in turn would bring in the potential to dismantle the settlements. Hamas were beig politically sidelined (netanyahu wasnt overly happy either). Now, hamas are back in the public spotlight and have he sympathy of the world.

So asking what else hamas coukd do is the wrong question - what else could the palestinian authority do is a more apt question and the answer is pursue the negotiations

I don't think they are. I think they are allowing their own people be slaughtered.

What they should be doing is getting Turkey/Iran involved, then I could call it a war.

johnnyskeleton

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't think they are. I think they are allowing their own people be slaughtered.

What they should be doing is getting Turkey/Iran involved, then I could call it a war.

Well yes, militarily they are faring poorly, but politically they will do well. Sadly their political gain comes at a civilian cost, but listening to the Jon Snow interview i cant believe that hamas are unaware of same

Rightwing

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Well yes, militarily they are faring poorly, but politically they will do well. Sadly their political gain comes at a civilian cost, but listening to the Jon Snow interview i cant believe that hamas are unaware of same

I'm not so sure. Anger exists amongst the population there now, and rightly so. Whether that goes directly towards Hamas favour I don't know.

handlemaster

Anyone Know what The UN does !! With ukraine and Palestine all words. Their talk is just a joke. Isreal is a master class in PR and spin. With lines such as they want us to kill their children. The western media take statements from the IDF as fact and présent it as such. Palestiniens need to get their message across and start with an english speaker. Guardian piece stated 1 in every 10 persons on US media asked to talk about The attack on The Gazaian people is not an advid supporter of israël.

Rightwing

handlemaster wrote: »

Anyone Know what The UN does !! With ukraine and Palestine all words. Their talk is just a joke. Isreal is a master class in PR and spin. With lines such as they want us to kill their children. The western media take statements from the IDF as fact and présent it as such. Palestiniens need to get their message across and start with an english speaker. Guardian piece stated 1 in every 10 persons on US media asked to talk about The attack on The Gazaian people is not an advid supporter of israël.

Indeed, few seem to realise this.

There is little the UN can do when America backs Israel all the way.

Just look at Cuba for an example/

Nodin

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

From a political perspectove, hamas arw playing a blinder. In april they made concessions to the (relatively) moderate fatah party and a unity government was formed. And it looked like the palestinian territories were firmly on the road to recognition as a state which in turn would bring in the potential to dismantle the settlements. Hamas were beig politically sidelined (netanyahu wasnt overly happy either). Now, hamas are back in the public spotlight and have he sympathy of the world.

So asking what else hamas coukd do is the wrong question - what else could the palestinian authority do is a more apt question and the answer is pursue the negotiations

That presumes that "negotiations" are some form of neutral area where its a level playing field. In fact the US prevents UN supervision/chairing of any peace talks, with no penalty on Israel for its continued illegal occupation/.

Conas

What can Hamas, and the Palestinians do exactly? Have a look at the size of the concentration camp that they have been thrown into. It's completely under siege with no way of escaping, and no where to hide either. There's no way out. It's hell on earth, and we Irish should be thankful that it isn't us. Poor Arabs anyway, you have to feel sorry for what's happening to them the last 13 years. Cruel world.

RDM_83 again

They can't defend themselves against the IDF.
In terms of strategy they could relocate some of their operations to neighboring countries and try and get Israeli involved in sticky situations militarily and diplomatically involving them (like Lebanon)
No idea of a way out of the deadlock that Palestine is in until the USA removes its backing, a strong EU stance with actual backbone to it could make a difference, anybody have an idea of public opinion about the conflict in countries like Germany, France and Italy.

irishpancake

mufflets2 wrote: »

I don't really understand what else people think that Hamas should/could be doing? given their resources and given the ruthlessness of the foe.

I agree wholeheartedly... they have been given no choice as to how they must respond to the agressor, no choice except Hobson's choice.

It is a war of attrition, and Israel are completely compliant in making martyrs today, which in turn will create martyrs tomorrow, with only one mission, because their lives are one dimensional.

Israel is sowing the seeds of it's own inevitable destruction, there is no such thing as safety as an aggressor and colonialist.

Even the Roman Empire collapsed under its own weight and corruption.

Hamas and their allies play a long game....the war of the flea.


dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/10/05/both-forgotten-and-misread-robert-tabers-the-war-of-the-flea-by-daniel-n-white/

Taber, quoting our old friend Vo Nguyen Giap, the Vietnamese commanding general from 1944-1978, on guerillas fighting a conventional Western army:

“The enemy will pass slowly from the offensive to the defensive. The blitzkrieg will transform itself into a war of duration. Thus, the enemy will be caught in a dilemma: He has to drag out the war in order to win it, and does not possess, on the other hand, the psychological and political means to fight a long, drawn-out war.”

The guerrilla fights the war of the flea, and his military enemy suffers the dog’s disadvantages: too much to defend; too small, ubiquitous, and agile an enemy to come to grips with.

With these words, Robert Taber began a revolution in conventional military thought that has dramatically impacted the way armed conflicts have been fought since the book’s initial publication in 1965.

Whether ideological, nationalistic, or religious, all guerrilla insurgencies use similar tactics to advance their cause.

War of the Flea's timeless analysis of the guerrilla fighter’s means and methods provides a fundamental resource for any reader seeking to understand this distinct form of warfare and the challenge it continues to present to today’s armed forces in the Philippines, Colombia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere.

Sand

irishpancake wrote: »

Hamas has self-evidently not been militarily successful, nor could they be.

Annnnnnd...what does that imply for Palestinian militant strategies?

Why do people here continually encourage Hamas and the Palestinians to engage in a militant strategy which everyone acknowledges is not successful, and never can be? Which has pushed the Palestinians back from the 1967 borders to their current ghettos?

I mean, you guys are pro-Palestinian, right?

But, despite the best efforts of pro-Israeli and pro-IDF propagandists in the print and broadcast media, on Social Media and here, there is, IMO, a perceptible change in public attitudes toward the Israeli Government and their policies with regard to the Palestinian Refugees they created, without the right of return to their own lands, which they forcibly incarcerate in the largest open-air prison in the world, Gaza and the West Bank.

Well, Id argue it hasn't really. The US is still solidly behind Israel. The UN and Europe is still wringing their hands uselessly. The Arab states are still sympathetic to Palestine whilst being very hostile towards Hamas. Guardianistas are still facebooking for fighting on to the last Palestinian.

Hamas militant action has actually hindered any political gains the Palestinians could have hoped for, as Hamas firing rockets at Israel gives Israel a free pass on their actions. Afterall, what would the US or Europe do if someone was firing rockets at their citizens daily? That's what the Israeli spokespeople relentlessly ask on every foreign interview I've seen and the interviewers never have a good response.

Israeli actions would be inexcusable only for the fact that Hamas insist on giving them an excuse.

@mufflets2

I dont think that you realy understand what is going on...
Israel Is in breach of more International laws than any other country in the world for their illegal Occupation and land theft in their neighboring country.

I don't think you understand. Let me demonstrate. You're probably entirely right on your point about Israeli breaches. And that makes absolutely no practical difference because "international law" is a vague mess of traditions and customs, which nations *consent* to be held to.

Israel wholly ignores the breaches...and nothing happens. No world policeman is going to show up on their doorstep and haul them in to a world court. And yeah, that shows up the hypocritical state of the world, but that's the way it is.

@Irishpancake

Hamas and their allies play a long game....the war of the flea.

They're doing so from the Gaza strip - roughly 365 square kilometers. You'd fit it about 4 or 5 times into Luxembourg. Or roughly about the size of the US city of Detroit. In an area that small and that heavily populated, you cant hide and you cant be agile.

The Israelis do have the psychological and political means to win a long war. They've certainly been winning the long war over the last 66 years.

Honestly lads, wakeup. Think.

Conas

tayto lover wrote: »

The International Community have been shown up for what they are i.e. worthless and double speaking.

It's a free war for Israel though. It'll be the International community that will be the ones that will have to pay for all this damage, and destruction to Gaza through aid.

It just goes to show you how clueless the American goverment is. They have given millions of dollars to the Palestinian authority in humanitarian aid, and they have also rearmed Israel with military aid for more killing. You can be guaranteed Israel will be getting more than $3 billion dollars next year aswell after this mess. All free, and all paid for by the American taxpayer. Millions living in poverty, and on food stamps, and yet their goverment throws away billions on slaughter and mayhem. Disgusting!