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How should Palestine defend itself?

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    #152
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    The palestinians are there too. Are they not allowed live a peaceful life without being cooped up like animals?


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    #153
    EI_Flyboy
    Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭EI_Flyboy


    shedweller wrote: »
    The palestinians are there too. Are they not allowed live a peaceful life without being cooped up like animals?

    Really, you think this hasn't been dealt with? You know you can always go back and read the previous posts on this thread. It's exactly this knee jerk thinking that exacerbates the problem. Now I know this is the internet and that much like it is on the motorway, the anonymity makes us quicker to anger at and braver to insult others but that's still no excuse for lazy thinking. I'm no longer going to address stupid statements or questions because it's a waste of my life and fear that those who voice them are more practiced at the type of argument that follows so I will surely lose at their level.

    Edit:

    You see this:

    http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Almost-2000-Palestinians-have-died-in-Syrian-war-335447

    And this:

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/three-years-of-civil-war-in-syria-no-end-in-sight/

    This is why Israel has so little regard for Western opinion. They're just waiting for something else to come along so we'll get distracted again. They must be wondering how we can be so hypocritical in complaining about what they do when we don't bat an eye if it's done by others.


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    #154
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    EI_Flyboy wrote: »
    And most native residents of the Aran Islands are apparently more Cornish than Irish. Are you going to tell me they're not Irish and don't deserve to live there?



    They're there, it's moot and not going to change. This has been covered, time to move on from that argument and think of something constructive to say.

    The genetics of the west of Ireland is largely that of the original migrants into Ireland and England when there was a land bridge ( pre Celtic). Most of us have that DNA, but the further East you go the more Viking, Normand and in England Anglo Saxon signals appear.

    And I am not "sending anyone back" to Cornwall. Au contrarie - I am arguing that if your ancestors lived in a place 2000 years ago you have no "right of return" and if they didn't - which in the case of European Jews is the case - you really don't. Nothing to do with "being born there" - a significant number of Israelis, particularly in the West Bank settlements were born elsewhere.

    And you don't get to decide when so something is "covered", particularly when you know so little. Your misinformation isn't "covering" anything.


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    #155
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    EI_Flyboy wrote: »
    Really, you think this hasn't been dealt with? You know you can always go back and read the previous posts on this thread. It's exactly this knee jerk thinking that exacerbates the problem. Now I know this is the internet and that much like it is on the motorway, the anonymity makes us quicker to anger at and braver to insult others but that's still no excuse for lazy thinking. I'm no longer going to address stupid statements or questions because it's a waste of my life and fear that those who voice them are more practiced at the type of argument that follows so I will surely lose at their level.

    Lol. The lazy thinking is all you.


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    #156
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    For Reals wrote: »
    Literally, back where they came from.
    Anyone wishing to remain should apply for Palestinian citizenship.

    Well given that that is not going to happen do you have any other suggestions?


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    #157
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    EI_Flyboy wrote: »
    Well the obvious answer to that is yes, yes they are and so are Argentinians, Brazilians, Chileans, Colombians etc., etc. They all live in America, be that North, South or Central America and that makes them American. If you can't see the obvious truth in that, go talk to some South Americans and a lot of them will tell you they find it annoying when we use "American" solely to refer to U.S. citizens.
    Your analogy was regarding genealogy and how we're all British based on current geographical proximity/naming of the region. Ireland existed as did it's people, (and those of the lands known as England, Scotland, Wales for that matter) long before any 'Britain'. So to call us all British makes no logical sense as regards your point of race or genealogy as regards a Jewish claim to that region.
    EI_Flyboy wrote: »
    Well the obvious answer to that is yes, Right now I feel you're being intentionally asinine and wish that you'd stop.
    No, I'm responding to your assertion that Israel is a homeland of a people because their beliefs say so. By that logic Rome, Jerusalem, Bethlehem is fair game for Catholics and Christians alike.
    EI_Flyboy wrote: »
    Where, the gas chambers?
    Well I guess you've reached the limits on this one.
    You can't take over someone else's already occupied land and claim it as yours. Pretty simple. Israel should not have been set up in that way. Those who wished to settle there could have gone about it much more diplomatically then simply taking the homes of others. There is no way to pretty this up.
    You can throw in the Crusades for the craic if you like.


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    #158
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    Nodin wrote: »
    I don't think replicating the tragedy of the Palestinian people by forcing it on the Israelis will get anyone anywhere.
    Not everyone wishes to butcher a people or drive them into the sea.


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    #159
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    obplayer wrote: »
    Well given that that is not going to happen do you have any other suggestions?
    Simplify by massacring the Palestinians...oh, wait...

    So based on these posts, if my DNA associates me with a region of the world however long ago I've a right to go live there. If I believe lower Manhattan is my spiritual home, I've a right to land there. If I go take anywhere by force and butcher the indigenous peoples it's all good if I've US support and a strangle hold on the western media. Noted.


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    #160
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    For Reals wrote: »
    Simplify by massacring the Palestinians...oh, wait...

    So based on these posts, if my DNA associates me with a region of the world however long ago I've a right to go live there. If I believe lower Manhattan is my spiritual home, I've a right to land there. If I go take anywhere by force and butcher the indigenous peoples it's all good if I've US support and a strangle hold on the western media. Noted.

    I have never said that, I fully realise that the Palestinians suffered a terrible injustice when Israel was founded but that is what happened and we cannot turn the clock back 70 years. Israel is not going away and that is the reality everyone, including the Palestinians, has to deal with.


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    #161
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Great comparison by Galloway between the Warsaw & Gaza Ghetto's & the sheer hypocrisy of it all.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmrZxBprd4Y


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    #162
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    Israel has murdered 0.06% of the Gaza population in just 3 weeks, applied to the US population in 22 days Israel would have massacred 188 thousand people or applied to the British population and it would be 38 thousand exterminated.


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    #163
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    obplayer wrote: »
    Israel is not going away and that is the reality everyone, including the Palestinians, has to deal with.

    Yes, and everyone accepts that, but by the same token neither are the Palestinians going to go away.

    If Israel keeps expanding outside her borders, then the only place the millions of refugees to call home will be Israel, and with no Palestinian state to go to, the only moral and right thing would be for them to return to there homes in what is now called Israel, which will of course, end the entire notion of a Jewish state. IMHO, Israeli rights don't trump Palestinians and vice versa. Israels carry on is making a one state solution more and more likely, imho, and Zionists will only have themselves to blame.


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    #164
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    obplayer wrote: »
    I have never said that, I fully realise that the Palestinians suffered a terrible injustice when Israel was founded but that is what happened and we cannot turn the clock back 70 years. Israel is not going away and that is the reality everyone, including the Palestinians, has to deal with.

    Nobody wants Israel to "go away". We (rational minded people) want to end the conflict with a just and lasting settlement. That won't happen tho while Israel continues it's policy of ethnic cleansing.


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    #165
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    wes wrote: »
    Yes, and everyone accepts that, but by the same token neither are the Palestinians going to go away.

    If Israel keeps expanding outside her borders, then the only place the millions of refugees to call home will be Israel, and with no Palestinian state to go to, the only moral and right thing would be for them to return to there homes in what is now called Israel, which will of course, end the entire notion of a Jewish state. IMHO, Israeli rights don't trump Palestinians and vice versa. Israels carry on is making a one state solution more and more likely, imho, and Zionists will only have themselves to blame.
    You mentioned the palestinians returning to their homes. Have you seen "The great book robbery" It is a documentary about all the Palestinian books that were left behind when they had to leave. Yer man went to some of the originally Palestinian homes that were now inhabited by israelis. Beautiful houses too for the age of them.


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    #166
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    For Reals wrote: »
    More absolute baloney.
    The main flaw being nobody who was transplanted to the shiny new Israel where even born there, or even their great, great and so on, so any homeland claim in open to derision.
    By your point I can carve up Rome or Bethlehem for that matter, for me and mine? And where is the Palestinian 'homeland'? No money, so tough?
    Read a book not based on convenient opinion.
    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Lol. The lazy thinking is all you.
    EI_Flyboy wrote: »
    Really, you think this hasn't been dealt with? You know you can always go back and read the previous posts on this thread. It's exactly this knee jerk thinking that exacerbates the problem. Now I know this is the internet and that much like it is on the motorway, the anonymity makes us quicker to anger at and braver to insult others but that's still no excuse for lazy thinking. I'm no longer going to address stupid statements or questions because it's a waste of my life and fear that those who voice them are more practiced at the type of argument that follows so I will surely lose at their level.

    Mod:

    Seriously, cut it out please. People have different points of view, that's fine, debate the point rather than throwing petty digs around, its just looks very childish. Thank you.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #167
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    Great to see. Pity it's not more common place.
    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/07/jews-and-arabs-refuse-be-enemies-what-it-s-be-anti-war-israeli


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    #168
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    wes wrote: »
    Yes, and everyone accepts that, but by the same token neither are the Palestinians going to go away.

    If Israel keeps expanding outside her borders, then the only place the millions of refugees to call home will be Israel, and with no Palestinian state to go to, the only moral and right thing would be for them to return to there homes in what is now called Israel, which will of course, end the entire notion of a Jewish state. IMHO, Israeli rights don't trump Palestinians and vice versa. Israels carry on is making a one state solution more and more likely, imho, and Zionists will only have themselves to blame.

    I've solved it. The Palestinians should be absorbed by Israel, then in a few years call for a referendum on seceding from the Israeli state based on historical and cultural differences. The key point being Israel are invader occupiers.


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    #169
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    I have never seen this answered: but Israel's Arab neighbours (especially Jordan and Egypt - Sinai Peninsula) have buckets of space to absorb (and even set up an independent state for) Palestinians.

    But this has never happened.

    Intransigence, disinterest, or sinister motive?


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    #170
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I have never seen this answered: but Israel's Arab neighbours (especially Jordan and Egypt - Sinai Peninsula) have buckets of space to absorb (and even set up an independent state for) Palestinians.

    But this has never happened.

    Intransigence, disinterest, or sinister motive?

    Why should the Palestinians leave there homeland, exactly? You do realize your calling for ethnic cleansing, right?


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    #171
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    wes wrote: »
    Why should the Palestinians leave there[sic] homeland, exactly? You do realize your[sic] calling for ethnic cleansing[sic], right?

    Why not? What is so special about Gaza - does it have any religious or cultural significance to them? It has a port; which is important; but it would be perfectly feasible to develop one in the Sinai. Moreover, you could carve out an area several times the size of Gaza in the Sinai and not even notice.

    The West Bank is a slightly more complicated issue, of course.


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    #172
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I have never seen this answered: but Israel's Arab neighbours (especially Jordan and Egypt - Sinai Peninsula) have buckets of space to absorb (and even set up an independent state for) Palestinians.

    But this has never happened.

    Intransigence, disinterest, or sinister motive?

    Oh my god, you're actually one step away form calling for gas chambers.


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    #173
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    Oh my god, you're actually one step away form calling for gas chambers.

    :confused:

    Well... um... good point sir! Calling for people to have their own country is just like the Holocaust. So I mean... the UN calling for an independent Jewish State after WW2 were just like the Nazis...

    cuz...

    LOGIC.


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    #174
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭AlanG


    "How should Palestine defend itself"

    If they people of the occupied territories took a break from violence and started demanding full voting rights and equality withing Israel then the apartheid government in Israel would soon change their approach.


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    #175
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    :confused:

    Well... um... good point sir! Calling for people to have their own country is just like the Holocaust. So I mean... the UN calling for an independent Jewish State after WW2 were just like the Nazis...

    cuz...

    LOGIC.

    No but that's what you appear to be calling for. It's their land, every single day of my life innocent civilians have been killed by the Israeli army simply for living on their own land, and your response is that they should just up and move? That's akin to the Holocaust, any Jewish person that didn't have the foresight to move before World War Two were exterminated. Besides the scale, where do you see the difference?


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    #176
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    No but that's what you appear to be calling for. It's their land, every single day of my life innocent civilians have been killed by the Israeli army simply for living on their own land, and your response is that they should just up and move? That's akin to the Holocaust, any Jewish person that didn't have the foresight to move before World War Two were exterminated. Besides the scale, where do you see the difference?

    Every people is entitled to their own country - who are you to deny them this?

    The Gaza Strip is far, far too small to be self-sustainable, and is surrounded by Israeli territory. It's neither economically, or (in reality) politically independent. As far as I can see Gaza City has no cultural or spiritual significance, unlike Bethlehem or Jerusalem. Granting them land far in excess of what is offered in the encroached Gaza Strip would not be ... whatever you think it is.

    From the Israeli point of view, the Gaza Strip is too close for comfort - with even the most primitive of rockets (potentially) able to hit Israeli cities. As such they feel entitled to invade and trample settlements in the Gaza Strip in a bid to eliminate the threat of rocket attacks (which is not actually possible).

    Whenever borders are formed, "ethnic cleansing" occurs naturally along side it - but usually this is people moving of their own volition. Sometimes it comes in the form of genocide; but this is actually rare: most of the time that genocides occur where there are no borders, or separate countries, and a dominant group in a country attempts to eliminate a weaker opponent.

    What Israel is doing in the West Bank (encroaching upon Palestinian territory and building settlements) is pretty reprehensible imo. I dunno... maybe you think it's a good thing? :confused:

    Hell, actually your analogy is so totally atrocious I don't know where to start; but presumably you ARE against the founding of Israel, and do consider its creation by the UN to be the same as the actions of the Third Reich.


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    #177
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    I can see the logic about Gaza but conflicts like these tend to be emotional and linked to land, and that over rides anything else. People could argue Northern Ireland should maybe be 3 counties and there's a logic in it, but even if we set up another artificial border tomorrow it isn't really going to solve the root cause.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #178
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Why not? What is so special about Gaza - does it have any religious or cultural significance to them?

    Its there home, that is more than enough.
    RandomName2 wrote: »
    It has a port; which is important; but it would be perfectly feasible to develop one in the Sinai. Moreover, you could carve out an area several times the size of Gaza in the Sinai and not even notice.

    The West Bank is a slightly more complicated issue, of course.

    You could ask the same question in regard to Israeli's, why don't they all just move to America or something like that. Sure, there "surrounded" by Arab states, they should just move.

    Its a nonsense position and never going to happen.

    Neither group are willing to leave.


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    #179
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    AlanG wrote: »
    "How should Palestine defend itself"

    If they people of the occupied territories took a break from violence and started demanding full voting rights and equality withing Israel then the apartheid government in Israel would soon change their approach.


    Theres been a ceasefire in the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem for years - hasn't done them much good. All major Israeli parties are committed to maintaining a Jewish majority, so theres no reason to believe they'll accede to a few million Palestinian voters any time soon.


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    #180
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Every people is entitled to their own country - who are you to deny them this?

    The Gaza Strip is far, far too small to be self-sustainable, and is surrounded by Israeli territory. It's neither economically, or (in reality) politically independent. As far as I can see Gaza City has no cultural or spiritual significance, unlike Bethlehem or Jerusalem. Granting them land far in excess of what is offered in the encroached Gaza Strip would not be ... whatever you think it is.

    From the Israeli point of view, the Gaza Strip is too close for comfort - with even the most primitive of rockets (potentially) able to hit Israeli cities. As such they feel entitled to invade and trample settlements in the Gaza Strip in a bid to eliminate the threat of rocket attacks (which is not actually possible).

    Whenever borders are formed, "ethnic cleansing" occurs naturally along side it - but usually this is people moving of their own volition. Sometimes it comes in the form of genocide; but this is actually rare: most of the time that genocides occur where there are no borders, or separate countries, and a dominant group in a country attempts to eliminate a weaker opponent.

    What Israel is doing in the West Bank (encroaching upon Palestinian territory and building settlements) is pretty reprehensible imo. I dunno... maybe you think it's a good thing? :confused:

    Hell, actually your analogy is so totally atrocious I don't know where to start; but presumably you ARE against the founding of Israel, and do consider its creation by the UN to be the same as the actions of the Third Reich.

    I have no issue with the foundation of the Israeli state. What I do however have an issue with is it's subsequent aggression and the fact that the people this state displaced have been living in refugee camps for 3 generations.

    You are right, everybody are entitled to their own country..why not the people who were displaced and the subsequent people who have been displaced by encroachments from Israel? What of them?


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    #181
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I have never seen this answered: but Israel's Arab neighbours (especially Jordan and Egypt - Sinai Peninsula) have buckets of space to absorb (and even set up an independent state for) Palestinians.

    But this has never happened.

    Intransigence, disinterest, or sinister motive?

    Surely a bit like saying "Ah sure why should Irish people have a right to live in Ireland, isn't there plenty of room in America for them. The planters are the ones who have a right to live in Ireland."

    Incidentally, Victoria White has an interesting piece in the Examiner today

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/victoria-white/we-are-washing-our-hands-of-the-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestinians-277240.html

    I've just started reading Dervla Murphy's A Month By the Sea

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Month-Sea-Encounters-Gaza-ebook/dp/B00B85PXSA/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1406803917&sr=1-1&keywords=a+month+by+the+sea

    (that's a Kindle link; libraries also have it), which is about her trip to Gaza in 2011.


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