Lidl plans Castleknock store

lucernarian

beauf wrote: »

I wonder what would be a good idea for that location. Probably apartments, just not as many as originally proposed. TBH even a Aldi or Lidl would be more reasonable if the entrance was not onto Castleknock Road. Or if they could move much of the through traffic away from the village.

How about categorising valid comparisons as something other than ludicrous? No one is pushing trollies out of Tesco in Parnell st to go to the Ilac car park (whee Dunnes are anyway) or Drumcondra for that matter. Literally no one. Motorists are not the ones going into that shop, and no one's dying of hunger for the want of a car boot to put things into.

Now what exactly is a 10 minute walk from Navan Road train station? Just the Racecourse apartments really. It will become a magnet for cars, though it'll take traffic away from the blanch shopping centre or Tesco Cabra at least, where people would drive to do big shops.

Now by having it in the village - peak traffic will be the same as always as people might stop by on their journey home but very few would dream of driving there solely for shopping if the traffic is as bad as you say. Off peak and at weekends, there will be more traffic, but that's not going to make a huge difference. And there will be people dropping by after getting off the bus, or who live not too far away who can walk instead of drive for the shopping.

Former Former

beauf wrote: »

Considering its with walking distance of the bus, train, Ashtown, Castleknock, and effectively on the main commuting route. It won't drag traffic anywhere. Its already passing it.

I thought people were arguing it would reduce traffic. Now your saying it will create a load more traffic. Which was the issue people had with it in the first place.
Lets look at all the other Supermarkets in Dublin15, SuperValue, Tesco, Aldi, Lidl they all have large very busy car parks even where they are in the middle of a village or housing estate.
So it will drag traffic from all around to Castleknock. Probably kill off all the other small convenience/food shops.

Castleknock is booming with Restaurants, pubs, Cafes. How it will suck customers out of these business I have no idea. Lets go for drinks and a meal. No lets go to Lidl instead. Makes no sense.

I assume someone will bring up an example of how an Lidl keep some village alive in ballyinthemiddleofnowehere or another ludicrous comparison.

No, it's not. Blanch village is booming, there's another cafe opening very shortly to add to the four already there, the four restaurants, I don't know how many really good takeaways and we even have a trendy craft beer pub that sells gin in fishbowl glasses for ludicrous prices. It's awesome to see Blanch doing so well.

What would a supermarket do for Castleknock? The concept of the "anchor tenant" is basically page 1 of retail. People have to go to a supermarket for their groceries; while they're at it, they'll go to the pharmacy, the butcher, hairdresser, whatever.

I do my shopping in Roselawn and every week I go into the cafe afterwards, a cafe that is always busy and which is situated between a fishmonger and a butcher.

I drive to Tesco because no one can carry seven bags of groceries home, no matter how close they live. However, once I'm there, I go into all the other ancillary shops, shops which would go bust overnight without Tesco, without having to drive elsewhere. It's one car journey as opposed to multiple.

If you plonk Lidl on the Navan Road or some other greenfield site, then people go to Lidl and do their shopping. Then they have to get back into their car and drive elsewhere to go to the pharmacy, so you end up with MORE car journeys.

And instead of going to the butcher or fishmonger, they say "f**k it, I'll just get my meat and fish here", so the smaller shops lose out and more money goes to the supermarket.

Having Lidl in Castleknock won't reduce traffic in the village, I don't think anyone has said it would. However, the alternatives would also create more traffic but without the trade-off benefits. Traffic is not the be-all and end-all.

beauf

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Eh no it's not. Same stale restaurants have been in the village for a age now.

Wongs, Castello, Okra...all mediocre at best.

Myos is ghost town.

Castleknock is the very opposite of booming on the decline for years

You have a short memory. Castleknock used to only have the Mandarin for food. Only one newsagent/post office and an Xtra-vision. There are now about 4x times as many food places and shops as there used to be. Castlecourt had nothing other than an estate agent, and the whole complex past the Mandarin didn't exist.

Its a ghost town that you often struggle to get parking in. These Ghosts must all drive.

MayoSalmon

beauf wrote:

You have a short memory. Castleknock used to only have the Mandarin for food.

Maybe 15 years ago...

beauf

Former Former wrote: »

...
What would a supermarket do for Castleknock? The concept of the "anchor tenant" is basically page 1 of retail. People have to go to a supermarket for their groceries; while they're at it, they'll go to the pharmacy, the butcher, hairdresser, whatever.

... or they'll just do it the supermarket and not go into the other shops. because generally supermarkets kill off competition.

Former Former wrote: »

......I drive to Tesco because no one can carry seven bags of groceries home, no matter how close they live....

So people will drive anyway to a supermarket.

Former Former wrote: »

...
Having Lidl in Castleknock won't reduce traffic in the village, I don't think anyone has said it would. However, the alternatives would also create more traffic but without the trade-off benefits. Traffic is not the be-all and end-all.

So we have walking is nonsense, and thus greenfield is nonsense.
No impact on traffic is nonsense.
Basically you want to reduce traffic but all your proposals increase it.

Traffic is the only issue people have with Lidl going in here, and its traffic in the village not traffic half a mile away where people will be largely unaffected by it.

beauf

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Maybe 15 years ago...

We really are an instant gratification culture aren't we. If something has been opened a year its ancient.

MayoSalmon

Castello is open 10+, Okra 8+ and Wong since the year dot. All mediocre aswell.

Used to drive up to Ongar to Jaipur when that was open as Okra is so poor in comparison.

Castleknock is incredibly poor village for food when compared to the likes of Swords, Malahide, Skerries, Howth, Clontarf on the north side.

Also Myos can smack as many new paint jobs on the place as they want won't change the fact that inside the place is dire stale old and has been for about 20 years.

Former Former

beauf wrote: »

... or they'll just do it the supermarket and not go into the other shops. because generally supermarkets kill off competition.



So people will drive anyway to a supermarket.



So we have walking is nonsense, and thus greenfield is nonsense.
No impact on traffic is nonsense.
Basically you want to reduce traffic but all your proposals increase it.

Traffic is the only issue people have with Lidl going in here, and its traffic in the village not traffic half a mile away where people will be largely unaffected by it.

Ugh, the surest sign of a very poor argument is when you selectively quote the bits that suit your argument then leave out the bits that completely contradict it.

Your points are not coherent but when you stick rigidly to a single dogma, that is always going to be the outcome.

We have to build things; houses, shops, roads, whatever. All we can do is put them in the best places possible. People who oppose every new brick and every new slab of concrete live in a fantasy world that the rest of us don't have the luxury of inhabiting.

Good luck.

beauf

No point quoting gibberish.

No parking near Parnell St, and when its pointed out you can't spit without hitting a multi-storey, claim that people won't walk a trolley or bags 5 mins to it. Yet we are expect to accept people in suburbia (where unlike the city most people will have a car) are going to walk 10+ mins with their shopping. Even when the people suggesting this admit they don't do it either. Or that 10mins + in another location is too far but ok in another. Most people banging on about it seem to have abysmal local knowledge of the area's they use as examples. We've had the strawman its Nimbyism or against any development or progress. We've had it will reduce traffic, it will increase traffic... to now the traffic doesn't matter.

...when for 3yrs this thread its always only been about the traffic.

Why bother have planning authority anyway. All it seems to be a means of saying we had a process, while using to circumvent that same process.

I'd say who cares I mainly use the train. Except that I can hardly get on the train anymore.

AlanG

I think overall this will be good for Castleknock. There will be more destination traffic but less through traffic as people from the east of Castleknock will not have to drive through the village to get their shopping in Blanchardstown any more.
I think it will be positive for the village overall once the additional small stores are made available to small retailers and not just service businesses.

horse7

Well that's a load of bull, east of castleknock, that's a tiny population,and East of castleknock definitely don't want any such supermarket built there.

beauf

if I lived east of Castleknock I'd just go out the Navan rd. and then to Blanch Village or Centre or Clonee. I wouldn't go via Castleknock then Blanch Village.

But if there was a Supermarket in Castleknock. I guess I'd go there instead, around 8~9pm. Probably not walking though.

Good luck with the snow tonight peeps.

ThisRegard

Castleknock is a village that's to be avoided for most of the time, I don't think it'll ever be a destination due to traffic.

Attol

Walking to the supermarket isn't that mad an idea. I have a 20 minute walk to the closest Dunnes or a 15 minute cycle to a bigger Dunnes and Lidl. I don't have a car, so my shopping happens when I walk or cycle, or once a month I'll do a big Tesco or Supervalu order for heavier/bulkier stuff. I've survived :P

beauf

It not about that. Its just about traffic. Don't get me started about the poor cycle lane provision around Castleknock.

Incidentally if they put it down near the train station, there is the Ashtown/Blanch Greenway. A fantastic route. I use it into town now and then on the bike.

lucernarian

beauf wrote: »

No point quoting gibberish.

No parking near Parnell St, and when its pointed out you can't spit without hitting a multi-storey, claim that people won't walk a trolley or bags 5 mins to it. Yet we are expect to accept people in suburbia (where unlike the city most people will have a car) are going to walk 10+ mins with their shopping. Even when the people suggesting this admit they don't do it either. Or that 10mins + in another location is too far but ok in another. Most people banging on about it seem to have abysmal local knowledge of the area's they use as examples. We've had the strawman its Nimbyism or against any development or progress. We've had it will reduce traffic, it will increase traffic... to now the traffic doesn't matter.

...when for 3yrs this thread its always only been about the traffic.

Why bother have planning authority anyway. All it seems to be a means of saying we had a process, while using to circumvent that same process.

I'd say who cares I mainly use the train. Except that I can hardly get on the train anymore.

This is verging towards fiction now. Multistories in Parnell Street or wherever are entirely besides the point (there aren't thousands of spaces, most are well over a 5 minute's walk away, if I'm going to drive to a shop, I'd hardly park 10 mins away and walk the rest, and Tesco beside St. Pat's college is hardly city centre and is still doing fine with no parking.)

It's clear you see this differently, but your arguments are poor and resorting to points about abysmal local knowledge is a bit desperate.


People won't drive there during peak traffic.

Others won't have to drive all the way to Blanch or Cabra.

Some who were driving for a weekly shopping will start walking by and make smaller and more regular shopping trips.

There's a lot of people who live nearby; more than at a greenfield site.

Comparable Lidl/Aldi developments have already been built across suburban locations in Dublin successfully and without traffic nightmares being caused. I'd argue Swords is the worst example, and was placed right by another large supermarket on a choked arterial route with high off-peak traffic and no ghost island for turning.

Repeating "but traffic" is pointless.

beauf

I'd say most people who park in a large shopping center or the city center walk at least 10 mins to their car.
Why walking 5+ mins to a car is crazy but walking to shop 15~20 mins isn't, makes no sense to me.

Peak can be 7.70~8.30 and 4.30~7pm in a lot of places. No one will go via the supermarket on the way home if its on their way? I don't see why not.
I pop in to East Wall or Blanch Center on my way home often enough. I didn't realise it was abnormal behavior. I don't tend to drive home then walk back to the shop I just passed in the car.

As for traffic I'm not sure pointing out all the places with some of the worst traffic in Dublin is making the point you think it is.
Waaay lets be like Drumcondra, darling of the Dublin City traffic reports.

its normal to go shopping off peak in D15, usually late as possible because its a nightmare most of the time.

Rosser

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Castello is open 10+, Okra 8+ and Wong since the year dot. All mediocre aswell.

Used to drive up to Ongar to Jaipur when that was open as Okra is so poor in comparison.

Castleknock is incredibly poor village for food when compared to the likes of Swords, Malahide, Skerries, Howth, Clontarf on the north side.

Also Myos can smack as many new paint jobs on the place as they want won't change the fact that inside the place is dire stale old and has been for about 20 years.

Is this a restaurant review or a discussion about Lidl in Castleknock?

Speaking as someone who actually lives in Castleknock, within 750m of the proposed Supermarket and will be directly impacted by it I can assure you the vast majority of people don’t want it and won’t use it.

I couldn’t give a monkey’s about Dundrum, Drumcondra, Parnell St. or anywhere else. Not one Councillor supported it, there was a record number of objections to it and yet we’re getting it anyway.

To save anyone the trouble re. NIMBYism, if my back yard wasn’t already stuffed with traffic I wouldn’t have the slightest objection.

Former Former

In fairness, local councillors are no indication of whether a development is right or wrong, only of how it will affect their re-election. The number of objections is a reflection of how well organised the locals are.

beauf

A squeaky wheel gets the oil...

...ignore or rectify ....

blanch152

beauf wrote: »

I'd say most people who park in a large shopping center or the city center walk at least 10 mins to their car.
Why walking 5+ mins to a car is crazy but walking to shop 15~20 mins isn't, makes no sense to me.

Peak can be 7.70~8.30 and 4.30~7pm in a lot of places. No one will go via the supermarket on the way home if its on their way? I don't see why not.
I pop in to East Wall or Blanch Center on my way home often enough. I didn't realise it was abnormal behavior. I don't tend to drive home then walk back to the shop I just passed in the car.

As for traffic I'm not sure pointing out all the places with some of the worst traffic in Dublin is making the point you think it is.
Waaay lets be like Drumcondra, darling of the Dublin City traffic reports.

its normal to go shopping off peak in D15, usually late as possible because its a nightmare most of the time.

How will people popping into the supermarket on the way home as they pass it anyway increase the traffic?

horse7

It's simple really,there will be an extra flow of traffic going into and coming out from the proposed Lidl.

beauf

blanch152 wrote: »

How will people popping into the supermarket on the way home as they pass it anyway increase the traffic?

I dunno.

One possibility might be because the development adds another sequence to the lights right in the middle of the bottleneck. It won't speed it up. So it will slow it down.

But since we're asking questions that aren't the comments we quote. Maybe you could answer how will this not attract more traffic into the area.

blanch152

beauf wrote: »

I dunno.

One possibility might be because the development adds another sequence to the lights right in the middle of the bottleneck. It won't speed it up. So it will slow it down.

But since we're asking questions that aren't the comments we quote. Maybe you could answer how will this not attract more traffic into the area.

I really don't see how it will increase overall traffic in Dublin 15.

The current housing developments elsewhere in Dublin 15 will increase traffic because they increase the number of people living in Dublin 15. If traffic is the problem, concentrate the objections there.

Possibly the number of workers from outside will result in increased traffic, but the people shopping in Lidl in Castleknock will be people who stop going to Roselawn or stop going to Lidl in Blanch Centre. Effectively, if there is an increase in traffic on the Castleknock Road as a result of Lidl, it will just have been displaced from elsewhere in Dublin 15.

Rosser

Former Former wrote: »

In fairness, local councillors are no indication of whether a development is right or wrong, only of how it will affect their re-election. The number of objections is a reflection of how well organised the locals are.

Yet both are accurate barometers for the feeling of the people in a constituency who have to live with it

beauf

blanch152 wrote: »

I really don't see how it will increase overall traffic in Dublin 15. ....

That was a rhetorical question, a strawman :rolleyes:

The issue is the bottleneck in Castleknock Village, specifically the lights. If all they did was put one house there, that required an extra turn on the sequence on the lights, it would slow the throughput of traffic.

Its a poor decision. If they ran the access in from Spar it would be better though still bad.

Former Former

Rosser wrote: »

Yet both are accurate barometers for the feeling of the people in a constituency who have to live with it

Absolutely.

Neither are a barometer of whether a proposal is 'right' or 'wrong' however.

The residents and councillors are perfectly entitled to object, just as Lidl are entitled to operate their business.

This is why we have an objective and public planning process. The decision gets taken by people with no skin in the game. Not everyone is going to like their decision, whichever way it goes. That's just the nature of it.

beauf

...I expect the people living in flood plains like these "decisions" least of all...but they will be relived to hear its an "objective" process...

Rosser

Former Former wrote: »

Absolutely.

Neither are a barometer of whether a proposal is 'right' or 'wrong' however.

The residents and councillors are perfectly entitled to object, just as Lidl are entitled to operate their business.

This is why we have an objective and public planning process. The decision gets taken by people with no skin in the game. Not everyone is going to like their decision, whichever way it goes. That's just the nature of it.

Local democracy is clearly not alive and well, why bother with Councillors so? Lidl can have and have had many ‘pre-planning’ meetings behind closed doors with Fingal but that’s not afforded to residents, hardly seems fair? Sounds like plenty of skin in the game, sure they bought the site without the planning they are now applying for.

I’m sure there are many communities crying out for a Supermarket, that should be enough to satisfy Lidl’s commercial needs.

lucernarian

Rosser wrote: »

Is this a restaurant review or a discussion about Lidl in Castleknock?

Speaking as someone who actually lives in Castleknock, within 750m of the proposed Supermarket and will be directly impacted by it I can assure you the vast majority of people don’t want it and won’t use it.

I couldn’t give a monkey’s about Dundrum, Drumcondra, Parnell St. or anywhere else. Not one Councillor supported it, there was a record number of objections to it and yet we’re getting it anyway.

To save anyone the trouble re. NIMBYism, if my back yard wasn’t already stuffed with traffic I wouldn’t have the slightest objection.

Hardly the vast majority, that's a completely unproven and cocky claim. Especially the part about not using it.

I've still yet to see how new traffic will be introduced to the area at peak times, unless there's some burning need by people to drive to supermarkets from other areas during peak time.

Again, how does Blanch village manage with the SuperValu there? The traffic situation there is comparable to Castleknock, and most of the traffic going through there at peak times isn't even going to that supermarket.