Lidl plans Castleknock store

beauf

...its like you don't know the area...

Blanchardstown isn't congested at Super Value there doesn't even seem to that much through traffic.
I think its because it all turns at the Bell to go back to Castleknock or at Clonsilla RD to go Clonsilla or the Center.
Both these ends especially at Bell seem to have go a lot worse lately.

Castleknock has constant through traffic and is a bottleneck, its terrible at peak. Tail backs in every direction. Been like that for many years. I always avoid it at peak.

MayoSalmon

Rosser wrote:

Put a supermarket in a congested village is nonsense.

This is what it boils down to really...Site is just not suitable in any shape or fashion

Rosser

lucernarian wrote: »

Why is it nonsense to have a supermarket in/near a "village" anyway? Sure there's only a few thousand people living within 10 mins walk of it.

According to Fingal’s own figures there was 25,000 in ‘the greater Castlenock area’ in 2006.

Lidl don’t go to spots where they’ll have people walking there or they wouldn’t be cramming in as many parking spots as they can.

Anyway back to my original point, they’ll destroy any diversity in the village. Would a craft butcher / fish monger / baker open when Lidl will blow them out of the water on price?

The florist got squeezed out when they’re lease wasn’t renewed by Lidl. I have no issue with the health centre, the apartments, some appropriate retail but a Supermarket?

Former Former

It won't make any difference to the rush hour traffic. Why? Because people don't drive to the supermarket at 8am on a weekday. So maybe there'll be additional traffic off-peak but what can you do. Having it in the village at least offers people the option to walk if they wish.

As for the craft butcher and fishmonger, well, I've been here all my life and I don't know when we last had a fishmonger or butcher in Castleknock. The absence of a supermarket has not led to these businesses opening up, so a bit of a red herring to say that its presence will prevent them. However, the butcher and fishmonger in Roselawn seem to do just fine being adjacent to Tesco, so who knows, maybe Lidl will actually increase the likelihood of these type of shops opening.

beauf

I've never seen a traffic jam around Roselawn Tesco. So that's an invalid comparison.

Traffic queues in Castlknock 4~7.30 PM. Usually.

Did there not used to be butcher in where the silver spoon is. Either behind or in front? There is a butcher in Laurel Lodge.

munchkin_utd

the actual proposal is not just a supermarket, its a pedestrian square with small shops out towards the main road and a supermarket way down the back, and an underground car park.
http://planning.fingalcoco.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=FW11A/0025&theTabNo=8
(Planning Reference: FW11A/0025 should the link break at some stage )

It looks like the underground car park will be exiting at the existing crossroads (essentially continuing straight on from the road from Castleknock college) so in the bigger scheme of things wont be that big of an issue as its not creating an extra set of lights or an extra separate hindrance to traffic, and if anything might be less of an effect than people slowly coming into or out of Myos or Topaz

Rosser

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the actual proposal is not just a supermarket, its a pedestrian square with small shops out towards the main road and a supermarket way down the back, and an underground car park.
http://planning.fingalcoco.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=FW11A/0025&theTabNo=8
(Planning Reference: FW11A/0025 should the link break at some stage )



It looks like the underground car park will be exiting at the existing crossroads (essentially continuing straight on from the road from Castleknock college) so in the bigger scheme of things wont be that big of an issue as its not creating an extra set of lights or an extra separate hindrance to traffic, and if anything might be less of an effect than people slowly coming into or out of Myos or Topaz

At this stage it’s probably a case of crying over spilt milk and look I might be wrong and it might all be dandy. Not sure what 2 extra coffee shops will do for the Silverspoon when it has already had the Bultler’s Pantry & Insomnia move it but let’s see.

All I’ll say is if there’s a car heading away from Myos and waiting for a break to turn right in to Lidl it will most certainly back traffic back up in the Castleknock road but maybe traffic light sequences can sort that.

If the High Court cases goes against Lidl then it’s likely back to square one.

Former Former

beauf wrote: »

I've never seen a traffic jam around Roselawn Tesco. So that's an invalid comparison.

My comparison to Roselawn had nothing to do with traffic, it had to do with the viability of smaller retailers.

beauf wrote: »

Traffic queues in Castlknock 4~7.30 PM. Usually.

Indeed, but they're never as bad as in the morning so likewise the impact of Lidl won't be as bad.

beauf wrote: »

Did there not used to be butcher in where the silver spoon is. Either behind or in front? There is a butcher in Laurel Lodge.

You're right, but that is long, long, gone. There is a butcher in Laurel Lodge, yes - not sure that's relevant to Lidl though.

beauf

There's been numerous similar issues with new developments all over d15 and the traffic always gets worse.

Adding more traffic is always going to make it worse. Another phase of the lights. At the busiest point. Of course that will have an impact.

It will happen no doubt. In a few years, No one will remember that the traffic was made worse. They'll just assume it was always bad.

Look at blanch centre. Gridlock is accepted as normal now.

PhoenixParker

Small retailers tend to do better when there's a big anchor tenant serving to attract customers. Roseland has a butcher, two chemist, a coffee shop, a laundrette and a few other small businesses precisely because people shop in Tesco and then take care of other matters.

A decent butcher is far more likely to survive with a lidl in castleknock village then without one.

beauf

I can see it now people walking to Aldi and bunch of other shops including the butchers then walking it all home. In Castleknock.

I'm not even sure Myos gets much walking traffic...

ThisRegard

Myos doesn't get much traffic of any kind these days, it's dead.

AlanG

I previously lived in Portmarnock where there was similar uproar over the Lidl application there. Now that it is open it is massively popular with the locals. New Lidl stores are not like the ones people in D15 are used to, they have great bakeries, coffee shops and fruit along with a number of smaller shops on the site. Hopefully the one in Castleknock will be like the one in Portmarnock and it will really add to the area.

beauf

Maybe you think they'd be ok with an ikea...

Rosser

AlanG wrote: »

I previously lived in Portmarnock where there was similar uproar over the Lidl application there. Now that it is open it is massively popular with the locals. New Lidl stores are not like the ones people in D15 are used to, they have great bakeries, coffee shops and fruit along with a number of smaller shops on the site. Hopefully the one in Castleknock will be like the one in Portmarnock and it will really add to the area.

The Lidl at Hanlon’s corner is lovely but it’s not a Lidl issue it’s a traffic issue. Where I live we already have the staff from the shops in the Castlecourt Centre parking outside our houses because they’re not allowed take customer parking so a commercial entity makes it’s problem my problem.

If you look at the history of those shops for example, planning rejected by Fingal (probably DCC at the time) appealed to An Bord Plenala who approved it. Aldi got turned down in Clonsilla and Lidl get approved in Castleknock, not logic.

Fingal gave permission to demolish Ennis House beside Topaz when it’s 115 years there, doesn’t sound much like protecting the village character.

lucernarian

Rosser wrote: »

According to Fingal’s own figures there was 25,000 in ‘the greater Castlenock area’ in 2006.

Lidl don’t go to spots where they’ll have people walking there or they wouldn’t be cramming in as many parking spots as they can.

Anyway back to my original point, they’ll destroy any diversity in the village. Would a craft butcher / fish monger / baker open when Lidl will blow them out of the water on price?

The florist got squeezed out when they’re lease wasn’t renewed by Lidl. I have no issue with the health centre, the apartments, some appropriate retail but a Supermarket?

What's the Lidl and Aldi doing in East Wall Rd in Dublin 3 then? There's plenty walking to and from that, and the car park available is fairly small. No one's losing their marbles or complaining about traffic over it as peak time traffic hasn't been really affected, especially not in the morning.

The planners themselves recognise itis not sustainable to keep sending supermarkets and retail in general to far flung sheds on the outskirts. All in places no one can easily walk or cycle to.

In any case I don't know what the population of the Castleknock "area" would change in this as depending on what the CSO decide, it could be quite a big area.

Edit: Hanlon's corner is an even better example. No one would deny there's significant peak time traffic around but it's in a densely populated area where a lot of people don't have cars and don't need to have one. That doesn't prevent people from going shopping or wanting whatever Lidl sells. I used to live in that area too and wouldn't dream of owning a car, although the Tesco there isn't all that special. The Lidl really adds to the area as there's not much choice in D7 apart from Tesco.

Colonel Claptrap

AlanG wrote: »

I previously lived in Portmarnock where there was similar uproar over the Lidl application there. Now that it is open it is massively popular with the locals. New Lidl stores are not like the ones people in D15 are used to, they have great bakeries, coffee shops and fruit along with a number of smaller shops on the site. Hopefully the one in Castleknock will be like the one in Portmarnock and it will really add to the area.

Surprisingly the traffic issues didn't materialise. Drivers have been very considerate for letting people in and out of that junction.

Former Former

Rosser wrote: »

The Lidl at Hanlon’s corner is lovely but it’s not a Lidl issue it’s a traffic issue. Where I live we already have the staff from the shops in the Castlecourt Centre parking outside our houses because they’re not allowed take customer parking so a commercial entity makes it’s problem my problem.

If you look at the history of those shops for example, planning rejected by Fingal (probably DCC at the time) appealed to An Bord Plenala who approved it. Aldi got turned down in Clonsilla and Lidl get approved in Castleknock, not logic.

Fingal gave permission to demolish Ennis House beside Topaz when it’s 115 years there, doesn’t sound much like protecting the village character.

It's only 'not logic' if your assumption is that every application must be granted or every application must be refused. The reality is that every application is reviewed on its own merits. Aldi being refused permission in Clonsilla doesn't make the Castleknock development any more or less viable.

That place beside the Topaz was derelict for as long as I can remember. I'm not sure what it was contributing to the village character.

beauf

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Surprisingly the traffic issues didn't materialise. Drivers have been very considerate for letting people in and out of that junction.

Maybe it will vanish in here also...though traffic p[rpoblems in castleknock are going back decades.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60231447&postcount=1

beauf

Former Former wrote: »

...That place beside the Topaz was derelict for as long as I can remember. I'm not sure what it was contributing to the village character.

Zero traffic...

Rosser

Ok, so a few points. Planning is not a linear decision it should be based on merit / appropriateness, I think this is rarely the case but others disagree - fine with me. Aldi were rejected for Clonsilla due to impact on the village....where’s that now?

East Wall road has greater capacity to handle traffic increases, Castleknock does not. The analysis carried out for planning demonstrated the road was already over capacity but that was ignored presumably because the council feel we’ll all abandon our cars due to the amazing cycle infrastructure they’re investing in...

Hanlon’s corner, broadly same number of parking spots as proposed for Castlenock but Hanlon’s has two exits for cars. In respect of D7 within 3kms of Lidl there’re 3 Tesco & an Aldi with planning for a Supermarket on the D7 / D15 boundary at the Racecourse. I accept the point about choice but that’s a separate argument and Aldi & Lidl are getting as plentiful as Starbucks in the US (relatively of course).

Portmarnock, haven’t a clue, good luck to it, a very nice part of town.

Ennis House is 113 years old, Fingal granted permission for demolition and replacement with a facsimile. I think 113 years constitutes character but only my opinion and when it is redeveloped there’s more traffic.

Anyway whatever happens at this stage it’s probably preferable to a derelict site and as mentioned a solid anchor tenant might attract some diversity.

beauf

I use East Wall road a lot. Traffic has been hugely effected there over the past few years. But that not just because of the shops.
Its a main route to the East link, Fairview, Tunnel and anywhere around the port. Its a major route. There is a ton of new housing, apartments, offices etc. Both in the area and feeding into East wall.
East Wall road for me used to be a 5 mins run in the morning, its not more like 20 mins. Used to be 10 mins in the evening now its queued back to the port.
There's also been continuous road works on some of the alternative roads around Castlforbes, Sheriff Street forcing more traffic down East Wall.

So there would be no point complaining about traffic from the Aldi/Lidl on East Wall. They do add more traffic. (and at a pinch point of traffic light and pedestrian crossing). But they have brought a lot of missing life and amenities to a previously very neglected area.

Braids

The area's residents are entitled to a supermarket, but the location is all wrong due to the road design heading into and out of Castleknock Village - being on a bend for one thing and the lack of parking facilitities already.

lucernarian

Braids wrote: »

The area's residents are entitled to a supermarket, but the location is all wrong due to the road design heading into and out of Castleknock Village - being on a bend for one thing and the lack of parking facilitities already.

I must be the only one who sees bringing a car with me for groceries as a lifestyle choice

And that with shopping for 3 people, each of us would take turns going most days. The likes of Tesco in Drumcondra and Parnell St doesn't have *any* parking and yet it's packed to the rafters when I see it.

beauf

Tesco Parnell has a load of multi story car parks within 5 mins of it. Must be 2500 spaces with 5 mins walk.
(A city center shop packed, who would have guessed that.) I'm not sure people see the traffic grid lock in Drumcondra or City Center (probably some of the worst in the country) as something desirable to emulate in Castleknock.

Can we have less of the crazy comparisons. They could have built it down near the old Garden Centre, or off the Navan Rd near the train station on Navan Rd. Still within walking distance for more than just Castleknock, but far handier for traffic off peak.

They will probably build it anyway. Seems to be a complete absence of forethought with any new development these days.

It won't effect me, tbh. I just think its daft planning.

Former Former

Putting it on a greenfield site creates more traffic, just in a different location, it sucks people and money out of the village centre and the urban sprawl continues.

That would be atrocious planning.

Having an anchor in the village means we have some prospect of a sustainable centre. If we're genuinely serious about reducing our use of cars, then we can't keep building generic boxes on the outskirts of towns and making everyone drive there.

beauf

Considering its with walking distance of the bus, train, Ashtown, Castleknock, and effectively on the main commuting route. It won't drag traffic anywhere. Its already passing it.

I thought people were arguing it would reduce traffic. Now your saying it will create a load more traffic. Which was the issue people had with it in the first place.
Lets look at all the other Supermarkets in Dublin15, SuperValue, Tesco, Aldi, Lidl they all have large very busy car parks even where they are in the middle of a village or housing estate.
So it will drag traffic from all around to Castleknock. Probably kill off all the other small convenience/food shops.

Castleknock is booming with Restaurants, pubs, Cafes. How it will suck customers out of these business I have no idea. Lets go for drinks and a meal. No lets go to Lidl instead. Makes no sense.

I assume someone will bring up an example of how an Lidl keep some village alive in ballyinthemiddleofnowehere or another ludicrous comparison.

ThisRegard

I believe at one stage Tesco actually looked at that site. They either thought planning was more hassle than it was worth, or just not a good location for the type of store they wanted there.

MayoSalmon

beauf wrote:

Castleknock is booming with Restaurants, pubs, Cafes.

Eh no it's not. Same stale restaurants have been in the village for a age now.

Wongs, Castello, Okra...all mediocre at best.

Myos is ghost town.

Castleknock is the very opposite of booming on the decline for years

beauf

I wonder what would be a good idea for that location. Probably apartments, just not as many as originally proposed. TBH even a Aldi or Lidl would be more reasonable if the entrance was not onto Castleknock Road. Or if they could move much of the through traffic away from the village.