Simple solution to Dublin traffic problem

bk

paddyland wrote: »

Funny that, because reading and believing many other threads concerning cycling, one could be forgiven for thinking that motorists, and particularly drivers of buses and lorries, are out there killing cyclists all the time, or at least trying their best to do so.

Just this week my friend was hit by a truck, in bright daylight, who saw the accident and then he speed away (hit and run).

Whilst she was brought to hospital, by Ambulance, etc. fortunately no major injuries, lots of twisted muscles, bruises and road burn from being thrown on the road. She is very lucky to be alive, if it wasn't for last second manoeuvre by her to avoid the accident as he drove into the cycle lane, she probably would be alive.

Happened in the middle of the day on a quiet road (residential area). Was seen my a witness who called the Gardai and confirmed the truck driver was totally in the wrong. Given that he did a runner, I suspect it was drunk or something else dodgy. Gardai are investigating.

So it certainly does happen. Also see the close call on the youtube video with the Dublin Bus crossing into a dedicated bike lane.

However having said all that, these are rare events and statistics clearly show that cycling is as safe as walking.

Edit: Whoops just saw monuments message above, sorry, back on topic.

ArnieSilvia

Wasn't this thread about kids attending schools far away from home rather than shools nearest to them?

I fully agree with the OP, this is creating a lot of trouble on its own, that's why for us proximity (and availability) of schools was a deciding factor when renting/buying a house.

I have no problem with people commuting to work, that's part of life. There might be no jobs available near home. But schools? All kids have to do certain subjects so why people are hoping it'll be any different in different school?

I feel sorry for these kids on busses as this is adding hours to the school hours, they have to get up earlier and come back late. They must be wrecked when finally get home and have no will to do homework or other activities.

popolive

monument wrote: »

If you strip out all of your so-called "punitive taxes" for cars, non-car users would be subsidising motoring even more than now. Those taxes are supposed to pay for the massive costs of motoring to the tax payer.

motor tax and all the other punitive taxes associated with running a car or motorbike are not there to pay for roads. It's not a road tax. It is not ring fenced. Motorists more than pay their own way and you know it. They always have. And the taxpayers themselves are also motorists. There is little difference. They are massively double and triple taxed at every step of the supply chain. They also contribute to the productivity of the economy in exponential ways. Even at that they have to pay tolls in many places for roads they already paid for many times over. Road tax exists to pay for pensions, junkets and political white elephants. If people abandoned mechanically propelled vehicles en masse, you would wake up to a country where bicycles would be heavily taxed. They will come up with an excuse to tax anything that moves because it's all about the money and nothing else but the money. I am pro moped as a solution. I think thats' a reasonable attitude. I am staring in disbelief at all the excuses given about how ''bulky'' and how much space these two wheeled vehicles take up on the roads and in parking spaces. Please give me a break from such idiocy ...LOL

monument wrote: »

If you actually replied to people's points directly we'd know you ignoring anything, but right now you're mainly ranting and confusing the limits of your personal experience with what others manage to do daily.

I am not interested in hijacking the thread and making it personal or being pedantic. I gave my opinion and thats enough for me.I do not need to ''drown out'' your opinion. Theres potentially 30 pedantic and wrong quotes I could post in here but theres no point. To keep it simple, you are wrong about the most basic things so I will just give one example e.g above where you went wrong and let people draw their own conclusions about what else you might be wrong about ?

LXFlyer

For probably the upteenth time on boards.ie, there is no such thing as "road tax".

There is "motor tax", and guess what it's a tax on motorised vehicles.

popolive

lxflyer wrote: »

For probably the upteenth time on boards.ie, there is no such thing as "road tax".

There is "motor tax", and guess what it's a tax on motorised vehicles.

I knew that but edited it to stop any further complaints. Fact is, it's not ring fenced to pay for roads. Revenue makes a substantial profit from motorists.

visual

lxflyer wrote: »

For probably the upteenth time on boards.ie, there is no such thing as "road tax".

There is "motor tax", and guess what it's a tax on motorised vehicles.

Motor tax is tax to use motor vehicle on the roads so why get so technical about it.

Cyclists horses and donkey's don't pay a tax to be on the road.

It too far a stretch to say all taxes are lumped into one pot so everyone pays for the road when motor tax on its own covers the cost and then goes on to pay towards water and any other demand by government.

Motorist carry the burden of taxes to prop up local and national government and if they ringed fenced the motor tax for roads only there be a surplus left over after they finished building every road desired and all maintained to highest standard.

But we have a very short sighted government who use it for public transport bicycle schemes and their fat pension retuning very poor value to the motorist who they have robbed blind for years.

Dont get me wrong I don't think there should be a cycle tax as it will end up like motor tax and wasted on something stupid probably cycle parking that can be charged parking fee

monument

popolive wrote: »

motor tax and all the other punitive taxes associated with running a car or motorbike are not there to pay for roads. It's not a road tax. It is not ring fenced. Motorists more than pay their own way and you know it. They always have. And the taxpayers themselves are also motorists. There is little difference. They are massively double and triple taxed at every step of the supply chain. They also contribute to the productivity of the economy in exponential ways. Even at that they have to pay tolls in many places for roads they already paid for many times over.

I said the "massive costs of motoring to the tax payer". I did not say road spending was the limit of that cost. The cost of motoring goes way beyond the cost of roads.

Motoring does not pay its way when external costs are included. There's been threads on this before -- you can search them if you want. Both sides at best agreed to disagree and there's no point repeating that here.

And a huge about of motoring does not contribute to economic productivity -- for example, congestion in cities caused by too many people mostly driving short distances is a barrier to the effective movement of goods and people. On the other end of things, motorways can be good for transporting goods and people long distances -- but motorways for commuting use are not effective and just end up making cities even more congested, and ends up promoting more mid-long distance commuting on them and that ends up clogging the motorway and making it ineffective.

popolive wrote: »

I am pro moped as a solution. I think thats' a reasonable attitude. I am staring in disbelief at all the excuses given about how ''bulky'' and how much space these two wheeled vehicles take up on the roads and in parking spaces. Please give me a break from such idiocy ...LOL

The fact you think parking would not be an issue shows how little you have thought about the issue!

Bicycle parking is already and issue -- and you can park 2-3 bicycles on-street in the space of one motorbike and even more bicycles in mass storage where they can be stacked in a way mopeds can't.

You'd be better off if you looked at the issue people are talking about rather than focusing on overblown expressions.

popolive wrote: »

I am not interested in hijacking the thread and making it personal or being pedantic. I gave my opinion and thats enough for me.I do not need to ''drown out'' your opinion. Theres potentially 30 pedantic and wrong quotes I could post in here but theres no point. To keep it simple, you are wrong about the most basic things so I will just give one example e.g above where you went wrong and let people draw their own conclusions about what else you might be wrong about ?

For experience is fine as that, but it has already been pointed out how that does not fit in with other people's experience or mass cycling in Denmark or the Netherlands.

For you previous posts to be true there'd have to be, for example:

• Mud all over Dublin's streets -- we're still waiting for where
• Nobody cycling a half hour in suits without issue -- but people do this
• No way of carrying documents on a bicycle without getting them wet -- but it can be done
• No way of carrying extra gear on bicycles -- but there are simple ways
• No Denmark or the Netherlands -- but these places are real

SeanW

Aard wrote: »

The average annual cost of owning a car in Ireland, all in, is around the €10,000 mark. Not everbody can afford that, even people with dogs.

How much of that is due to government tax and regulations? VRT, road tax, fuel tax, VAT, Quinn Levy, NCT, unofficial strict liability loadings on insurance?

And how much would the cycling lobby add to that if it could?

SeanW

lxflyer wrote: »

For probably the upteenth time on boards.ie, there is no such thing as "road tax".

For the umpteenth time, it's a tax a motorist must pay to put their car on the ROAD. I.E. a car that is parked up is not liable for a tax on road usage.

There is "motor tax", and guess what it's a tax on motorised vehicles.

That is dependent on and due only where said motorised vehicles are ON THE ROAD.

I said the "massive costs of motoring to the tax payer". I did not say road spending was the limit of that cost. The cost of motoring goes way beyond the cost of roads.

Bull. There was a study that showed the "external" costs of motoring were £600 per year per person. My road tax bill alone is more than that. It also assumes that motorists are not part of society, i.e. that the mobility offered by the car is not a social benefit that should have been appropriately charged off against that £600.

Qualitymark

SeanW wrote: »

How much of that is due to government tax and regulations? VRT, road tax, fuel tax, VAT, Quinn Levy, NCT, unofficial strict liability loadings on insurance?

And how much would the cycling lobby add to that if it could?

Speaking for the cycling lobby (my own one-person one, anyway):

• I reckon that the NCT is a good thing (a friend used to work as a mechanic when he first came to Ireland from England was horrified at how many cars came in for work that were covered with blood, and were completely unroadworthy. When the NCT came in, he stopped seeing cars with wockety steering wheels, bald tyres, dicky clutches, crocked suspension, cracked chassis, broken lights, doors tied with string, and all the other things that were common on the roads before it.
• The various taxes on fuel are part of Ireland's commitment to lower carbon use; if you get more fuel-efficient car you pay less.
• I don't know what road tax is, or Quinn Levy.
• VRT, if that's the annual car tax, has gone up a lot recently; I think that's also because of carbon use. Really, if we used car pooling more and didn't have so many people driving around in lonely splendour with a single person in a car taking up a third of the space of a bus with 60 people in it, motor tax wouldn't be such an issue.
• Insurance has gone down a lot since I started driving. It used to be enormous, not any more.

Of course I'm sad that the NCT has put me off the road as a driver; I'd be a lot sadder, however, if my car's rusted boot well had developed into a rusted chassis and killed me horribly. I'll have to trust all you drivers out there to treat me with tender, delicate care as I amble along on my bicycle through Dublin.

SeanW

Qualitymark wrote: »

Speaking for the cycling lobby (my own one-person one, anyway):

I reckon that the NCT is a good thing (a friend used to work as a mechanic
when he first came to Ireland from England was horrified at how many cars came
in for work that were covered with blood, and were completely unroadworthy. When the NCT came in, he stopped seeing cars with wockety steering wheels, bald tyres, dicky clutches, crocked suspension, cracked chassis, broken lights, doors tied with string, and all the other things that were common on the roads before it.

Up to a point yes, I agree, but I fear it has become excessive, and in its current form is much more than a safety test.

I don't know what road tax is, or Quinn Levy.

Quinn insurance went bankrupt with Anglo. All Irish insurance policies of all kinds including mandatory car insurance, are loaded with a 2% levy to clean up the mess. Road tax, a.k.a Motor Tax or in the UK, Vehicle Excise Duty, is a tax that must be paid for a motorist to use the roads. The Irish version costs anywhere from 2-5 times the UK tax.

VRT, if that's the annual car tax, has gone up a lot recently;

Two different taxes: VRT is a large tax that you pay on registering a car in Ireland, up to 33% of value I think, the "annual car tax" is the one I described above. To use their technical terms, Motor Tax is up to 5 times higher than the equivalent V.E.D. in all categories.

It's a lot.

Insurance has gone down a lot since I started driving. It used to be enormous, not any more.

Which some would like to reverse.

Of course I'm sad that the NCT has put me off the road as a driver; I'd be a lot sadder, however, if my car's rusted boot well had developed into a rusted chassis and killed me horribly. I'll have to trust all you drivers out there to treat me with tender, delicate care as I amble along on my bicycle through Dublin.

Just don't run red lights or otherwise act the fool and we wont have a problem

Qualitymark

SeanW wrote: »

Qualitymark wrote: »

Just don't run any red lights or otherwise act the bollix and we wont have a problem

I rarely go through red lights, and if I do, I generally get off the bicycle and walk across (having first ensured that there's nothing coming for miles). But frankly, some motorists (not you, SeanW, I'm sure) have taken to breaking red lights regularly, often racing to go through, especially on a turn, which is really deadly to a cyclist who's continuing through a light that's gone green for 20 seconds already…

There are certainly some cyclists who are stupid and selfish in the way they use the road; there are an equal number of motorists who are.

timetogo

As somebody who uses the M50 every day I think there's a simple measure that could be taken to alleviate some of the congestion that is building up on that.

It's currently €2.10 with a tag each way.
Why not make it €1.00 with a tag each way between 9PM -> 7AM.

If you were somebody who normally went through the toll just after 7 you'd probably leave a few minutes earlier. It'd probably reduce the number of accidents by a couple a year so that would save the economy money too.

Although knowing our government they'd bring the off peak toll down and increase the normal hours toll.

Qualitymark

timetogo wrote: »

As somebody who uses the M50 every day I think there's a simple measure that could be taken to alleviate some of the congestion that is building up on that.

It's currently €2.10 with a tag each way.
Why not make it €1.00 with a tag each way between 9PM -> 7AM.

If you were somebody who normally went through the toll just after 7 you'd probably leave a few minutes earlier.

Yes; same with all the toll roads. A friend who cycled across the country on the Esker Riada and quiet backroads last year said the one dicey point was at one place where a lot of trucks and cars left a motorway to loop around toll plazas and belted along the country roads as if they were motorways.

Aard

SeanW wrote: »

How much of that is due to government tax and regulations? VRT, road tax, fuel tax, VAT, Quinn Levy, NCT, unofficial strict liability loadings on insurance?

I have no idea. Probably a fair whack.

And how much would the cycling lobby add to that if it could?

Again I have no idea. You'd have to ask them.

Qualitymark

Muahahaha wrote: »

…for example the last time I hired I got a pretty new Ford Focus saloon for 48 hours and it cost me €28, absolute bargain. I have a 12 month excess insurance policy which cost me €49 for the year so I never need to take whatever overpriced insurance the car hire firm are trying to sell.

Hm. Asked Quinn Direct/Liberty Insurance about this 12 month excess insurance policy and they'd never heard of it. Which insurance company does this?

markpb

Qualitymark wrote: »

Hm. Asked Quinn Direct/Liberty Insurance about this 12 month excess insurance policy and they'd never heard of it. Which insurance company does this?

It's only available for car rentals.

Qualitymark

markpb wrote: »

It's only available for car rentals.

Yes, that's what I thought you said - am I understanding you right if I think you can get this €49 insurance which will only come into practice on the rare (limited?) occasions that you rent a car? Who does this (if I've understood it right)?

AlekSmart

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=757814500936548&set=gm.708730152522080&type=1&theater

Interersting to note that Public Transport solutions are not entirely a modern Dublin issue......back in the day (1863) we had visionaries too !!

It's a Facebook page ,so apologies if it cannot be opened

visual

what is to stop them raising the luas above the streets
The red line is a disaster cutting through so many roads that it will always be in collisions.

ezra_pound

visual wrote: »

what is to stop them raising the luas above the streets
The red line is a disaster cutting through so many roads that it will always be in collisions.

Or cars could just stop at the little red lights that we spent good money on!

Aard

Where on the red line in town is there as much space between the buildings as in that photo? The street beneath would be dark all day. Great for antisocial behaviour.

visual

Aard wrote: »

Where on the red line in town is there as much space between the buildings as in that photo? The street beneath would be dark all day. Great for antisocial behaviour.

If you travel on green line it goes over canal and through buildings. Redline in tallaght goes through apartment block.

Supports can be from side of road or foot path or even built into the side of buildings

as regarding light underneath a rail line there is always artificial light or as luas is light weight train the support for a couple of rail lines could be steel beams with sufficient gaps to allow light through.

we do employ garda although I only see them stopping cars im sure they are capable of patrolling these areas

SeanW

ezra_pound wrote: »

Or cars could just stop at the little red lights that we spent good money on!

Motorists are the most likely group I've seen, after Luas trams and buses, to respect stop lights. But even an error rate among motorists of a fraction of a percent can cause delays, accidents etc. and often does, which you have to expect because human error is inevitable even in the best of circumstances.

Besides it's generally the case that grade separated public transport is faster and better anyway. Hence for example why Irish Rail wants to close all the level crossings on the Maynooth line.

Qualitymark

visual wrote: »

If you travel on green line it goes over canal and through buildings. Redline in tallaght goes through apartment block.

Supports can be from side of road or foot path or even built into the side of buildings

as regarding light underneath a rail line there is always artificial light or as luas is light weight train the support for a couple of rail lines could be steel beams with sufficient gaps to allow light through.

we do employ garda although I only see them stopping cars im sure they are capable of patrolling these areas

They know how to handle these things in Thailand:

vibe666

Can we not just enact a law that says that any learner driver not competent enough to put the L plate in the back of their car the right way around, isn't competent enough to be on the road at all?

We'd halve the number of learner drivers on the road overnight.

Muahahaha

Qualitymark wrote: »

Yes, that's what I thought you said - am I understanding you right if I think you can get this €49 insurance which will only come into practice on the rare (limited?) occasions that you rent a car? Who does this (if I've understood it right)?

http://www.aig.ie/car-hire-excess-insurance_3192_516126.html

I got mine from AIG. Yes, this insurance is so you don't have to take out any excess policy that the car hire company will inevitably try to sell you at the pick up point. In my experience the charges for this are in the region of €12-20 per day so they can almost double the costs of renting some cars. Before using it you should check that the car hire company doesn't have a policy of only letting you buy their insurance as a condition of hire. Budget are one such company, I haven't come across others but they might be out there.

Since I sold my own car last year I now rent cars from Dublin Airport, perhaps 8-9 times in the last year and always at decent rates, usually around €15 per 24 hours for a Ford or Volkswagon. By having the €49 excess policy it makes it super cheap for me vs. owning a car, taxing and insuring it, maintenance, etc.

I own a motorbike which is fine for me 90% of the time but there are occasions where I need a car so renting makes a lot more sense when combined with a cheap annual excess policy. It also has the big advantage that I'm always driving new or nearly new cars these days whereas before I was shelling out €1500 odd a year just to have a 9 year old car sit outside. By hiring cars I don't need to worry about taxing it or any maintenance costs which is always a worry with older cars if a major component goes. On top of that hiring costs me around €400 a year whereas before I couldn't even tax the car for that sum.

I remember reading before that Ireland has some of the most competitive car hire rates of anywhere in Europe. Having hired before on the continent I'd tend to agree, €50-60 a day is common enough to hire a car in Germany or France. For some reason the Dublin market is extremely competitive and there are lots of bargains about, especially at the airport. People who live in the city and own a car but rarely use it should really look at car hire as a more practicable and affordable solution.