Simple solution to Dublin traffic problem

popolive

local schools mean people in rich areas get rich schools. its capitalism on the one hand but on the other hand it aint no fair meritocracy for the kids. The best way to deal with rush hour traffic jams is staggered opening hours. Kids can go to school before or after rush hour if of an age to travel alone. Timetables should try to build in some flexibility with evening classes a possibility. This may even lead to teachers getting opportunities for overtime if they want it.

LXFlyer

Calina wrote: »

Key issue in the peak hour in Dublin Bus in my experience is bus capacity itself. They are basically full and if you have to make a change of some description, there is a real risk that your second bus may not have room for you. Many people wind up waiting for additional buses even on single bus journeys not requiring changes.

The issue is not just congestion. I don't see any benefit to bringing in congestion charges in this country until we build a coherent public transport system which is not based on doing as little as we can get away with.

A key issue in Dublin is its comparatively low density which means implementing public transport tends to be more expensive. Either we absorb this and I see no evidence that the powers that be are willing to make public transport cheap and efficient for everyone, or we face the fact that the costs are more gridlock and less attractive public transport options.

The BRT out to Swords should be scrapped and the metro built first. The documentation already admits the BRT would be overcapacity on its first day of operation. Building it is a waste of money and resources when we would still have to build some sort of rail system anyway in my opinion.

To be fair you are always going to have some full buses, particularly those that start further out, but most corridors have alternatives that start closer to the city which sweep up the passengers.

I'm not sure that the bus system is quite at capacity.

Calina

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair you are always going to have some full buses, particularly those that start further out, but most corridors have alternatives that start closer to the city which sweep up the passengers.

I'm not sure that the bus system is quite at capacity.

I stopped using it because it was at capacity for the routes I changed on to. My inbound regularly left people on the road as well on stretches which were not served by alternatives.

Pawwed Rig

Calina wrote: »

I stopped using it because it was at capacity for the routes I changed on to. My inbound regularly left people on the road as well on stretches which were not served by alternatives.

That was the reason I bought my first car. 3 times stranded in Liffey Valley while bus after bus drives by full when I am trying to get to Maynooth. Eventually being forced to get taxi

bk

Calina wrote: »

All those buses, trains and Darts would need to be in place well in advance of any congestion charging.

When London introduced congestion charging, they also introduced 300 new London Buses in the congestion zone and three new routes on exactly the same day.

I'm not saying just introduce congestion charging, I'm saying have it as the central part of a plan to revolutionise public transport in Dublin. At the same time you would:

- Introduce new buses to meet the increased demand
- Increased frequency on bus routes
- Maybe some new bus routes.
- All Darts returned to 8 carriage formations
- Increase in LUAS frequency were possible.
- BRT
- New Park & Rides on the M50
- Tag-on/tag-off on Dublin Bus with new faster ticket machines
- More multi-door buses and more consistent use of them
- High flat cash fare on Dublin Bus
- Integrated ticketing based on a per km system similar to Amsterdam
- Remove bottleknecks like the Cat & Cage
- Better cycle infrastructure
- More Dublin Bike stations all over the city.

Some of these items can and should be done today (i.e. tag-on/tag-off on DB, flat cash fare, etc.) however there is no point in building park and rides and extra buses when the demand is mostly not there and the buses are crawling in congested traffic.

Instead make it a big plan, announce that congestion charging will be introduced in two years time, but at the same time announce the ordering to 100 extra buses, building of park and rides, etc. all times to be ready just before or at the launch of congestion charging.

But no point in just lazily saying that we shouldn't introduce congestion charging when public transport is ready, because the reality is it will never become ready then. It has been proven time and again, that when you improve public transport, it has no effect on traffic as more people just decide to drive due to the reduced congestion!

We need congestion charging now, to allow Dublin Bus to work properly and to make space for improved cycling and walking infrastructure.

bk

beauf wrote: »

Dublin is very doable on bicycle. There a real lack of vision of how suitable bicycles are.

Absolutely it is amazing how similar Dublin is to Amsterdam, yet look how much people cycle in Amsterdam vs Dublin

- Dublin and Amsterdam have almost exactly the same population size and density.
- Amsterdam actually gets more rainfall then Dublin!
- Dublin is mostly flat, same as Amsterdam.

There is really no reason at all, other then vision, that Dublin can't be like Amsterdam.

Also, not everyone likes cycling. This seems, in discussions, to get forgotten now and again.

No one ignores this, but for those people there is always public transport.

In Amsterdam 40% of people cycle to work every day, in Dublin it is about 5% As I mentioned above, Dublin is almost exactly like Amsterdam in every way, so why so few people cycle in Dublin versus Amsterdam.

The only difference I can see, is the vastly superior and safer cycling infrastructure in Amsterdam and the planners and policy makers actually understanding cyclists needs and focusing on it as a priority, rather then an afterthought like here in Ireland.

Of course not everyone will want to cycle, but the massive success of Dublin Bikes and the Cycle to Work scheme has proven that there is a massive pent up demand for cycling here in Ireland, just waiting for proper, safe, well maintained infrastructure.

And it would be amazing if we could get cycling usage up to 40% here. And this would benefit even those who don't wish to cycle and drive or take public transport instead, due to less congestion with all those people cycling.

It really is a one-one for everyone.

Carawaystick

Amsterdam is substantially flatter than Dublin

_Kaiser_

Public Transport in Ireland is like renting...

Both seen as the "poor man's option" or a stepping stone to ownership (cars in this case!)

Just like property, the powers that be make too much from car owners (tax, tolls, VAT on fuel etc) to go TOO far in pushing people onto public transport/alternatives.

It won't change beyond minor tinkering at the edges or "solutions" that make the problem worse! You're relying on turkeys to vote for Christmas.

markpb

endacl wrote: »

How would that be enforced...?

There are cameras on the front of all DB buses.

whiteandlight

I'm not sure how it hasn't come up already but this is completely unworkable with the current school system.

The simple reality is that the schools in many areas, particularly commuter belt areas, do not have the capacity for the students in their area and are massively over subscribed. Take north kildare/ Dublin west for example. Lucan, maynooth, Celbridge and Naas are all due 1000 pupil post primary schools in the next year or three. That is 4k children who currently cannot be accommodated in their area and are commuting to get an education.

The reality is the planners fecked up and the department of education has had absolutely no foresight or planning. These kids were visibly in the primary school system. Everyone knew the capacity couldn't cope in these areas resulting in looney waiting lists and still the dept didn't build until they reached crisis point. Maynooth PP is currently oversubscribed by like 3-400 pupils, they had to expand into the local shopping centre! The rest of the kids are commuting to leixlip and kilcock if not further to get a school place

adocholiday

I was getting the 145 bus from the bottom of Brewery Road on the N11 to Heuston Station every day and then home again. I got so fed up of waiting at the stop every morning and seeing the bus that I had waited 10 minutes for pass by full, and having to wait another 10 minutes for the next one, with no guarantee that you'd get on that either. When I would finally get one, it would take forever to get across the city with all of the baby buses bringing their little angels to school. Going home was a similar nightmare. The 'next bus' indicator at Heuston is a joke when it comes to the 145. You may as well estimate the time yourself!

Anyway I finally got a bike and it's great. My morning commute would take an hour from the time I got on the bus + the waiting time for the bus. I often found myself leaving the apartment at 7.45 to be in the office for 9. I can leave my apartment now at 8.15 and be sitting at my desk before 9. Not really adding a whole lot to this conversation, its more just to show the difference that cycling can make

Idbatterim

how long is it taking them to finish the cat and cage?! also could the port tunnel which cost a fortune, not be very cheap during the day time and increase it at peak times, but effectively have it operating at near peak capacity at all times? so adjust the pricing accordingly? When I mean cheap, I mean say €1 or €2 max off peak and at peak whatever the max financial return would be while also not exceeding the max permitted vehicles...

from the port tunnel website:
Monday to Friday 1600 — 1900 €10
All other times including
Public Holidays

€3

monument

Carawaystick wrote: »

Amsterdam is substantially flatter than Dublin

I'd agree, but a huge percentage of Dublin is flat or almost flat. Then there's also canal and river routes planned which will offer mostly gental inclines.

Here's a UK site detailing the reason why it's lower cycling levels is mainly not down to flatness vs not so flat: http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/wiki/people-cycle-in-the-netherlands-because-it-is-flat

beauf

Calina wrote: »

Distance wise, maybe, state of the streets wise, hit or miss, and on the north side of the city, probably lethal.

Also, not everyone likes cycling. This seems, in discussions, to get forgotten now and again.

There's a real lack of vision about coherence in moving people around. Not just cycling, or public transport or whatever; there is no coherent overview.

That was kinda my point. Dublin is a nice size and relatively flat for cycling. Considering the lack of budget, small streets, etc. Cycling is a obvious solution. Even for people far out, park and cycle is a good option. But its not provided for.

While its not especially dangerous, certainly there's that perception, and indeed its often not that pleasant, and thus not attractive, depending on your route. But it would cost a lot less to make it more pleasant for cycling than most of the alternatives. Like building a metro.

For sure some people will never move to cycling, for perfectly valid reasons. But focus should be on those that can. I say that as someone who cycles only occasionally.

monument

Just think about it -- there's not a single continuous cycle lane, never mind segregated cycle path, from the city centre to any suburb.

Calina

beauf wrote: »

That was kinda my point.

You're focusing on a single mode, namely cycling. My point is not that. My point is that there needs to be a coherent overview integrating all modes.

beauf

Very few single continuous cycle lane feeding the phoenix park either. Either for commuters, or family's with kids.

A good few using the park as a park and cycle facility though.

beauf

endacl wrote: »

How would that be enforced...?

I assume the same laws that stop other people from parking in dangerous or obstructive locations. They regularly park across a laneway blocking access near my office. I've never seen a cop stop once and ticket them for it.

beauf

Calina wrote: »

You're focusing on a single mode, namely cycling. My point is not that. My point is that there needs to be a coherent overview integrating all modes.

and i did that deliberately, because cycling is the easiest to improve. Its gets a lot of unfair negativity. But it moves significant numbers.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/cyclists-set-to-outnumber-luas-commuters-1.1773080

Others not so easy. As there either isn't space on the road for a bus lane, streets are too narrow, or no physical infrastructure for a train. Or perhaps simply no money.

LXFlyer

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

That was the reason I bought my first car. 3 times stranded in Liffey Valley while bus after bus drives by full when I am trying to get to Maynooth. Eventually being forced to get taxi

Would it not have been easier and certainly cheaper to just get one of the other buses to Lucan or Leixlip and change there?

Can I ask when was this - are we talking recent years or what?

LXFlyer

Calina wrote: »

I stopped using it because it was at capacity for the routes I changed on to. My inbound regularly left people on the road as well on stretches which were not served by alternatives.

There may be certain areas that have issues, but I don't think you can say that the entire network has this problem - which route were you trying to change onto?

LXFlyer

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

+1.. my current commute is a perfect example.

Takes me < 15 mins door-to-door but that's cause I'm usually in the office before 8am.

Alternative bus option would be nearly double that time, expensive, inflexible - plus I'd still be paying tax/insurance regardless. As I do a few long motorway runs a month, plus here and there in the evenings/weekends I wouldn't be giving up the car anyway.
I put up with Dublin Bus and IE for nearly 30 years and countless hours wasted on services that didn't show or plodding along wandering routes and unnecessary detours between A&B.

That's more than enough pain for a lifetime IMO!

But can public transport be expected to meet every trip - it simply can't. Particularly those that are not along the radial routes, as orbital trips tend to be unique to each individual. What it can do is try to provide a service to the major traffic generators.


Since Network Direct was introduced, there are significantly less "plodding along wandering routes".

Calina

lxflyer wrote: »

There may be certain areas that have issues, but I don't think you can say that the entire network has this problem - which route were you trying to change onto?

I had a choice of routes to change on to. 145 and 46A towards UCD, change on D'Olier St. Nassau Street or Kildare Street. It was systematically a problem on D'Olier Street. There is an alternative to UCD on D'Olier Street via Rathmines. It was circuitous.

In terms of issues at the other end, 14 regularly passes stops on Collins Avenue, full, during the morning rush hour. I have also had them not show up.

LXFlyer

Calina wrote: »

I had a choice of routes to change on to. 145 and 46A towards UCD, change on D'Olier St. Nassau Street or Kildare Street. It was systematically a problem on D'Olier Street. There is an alternative to UCD on D'Olier Street via Rathmines. It was circuitous.

In terms of issues at the other end, 14 regularly passes stops on Collins Avenue, full, during the morning rush hour. I have also had them not show up.

Would none of the Xpresso routes suit (25x, 27x, 32x, 41x, 66x or 67x)?

I would certainly have thought changing to either of 46a or 145, the trick would be to leave it as long as possible - the two main routes would lose a lot of cross-city passengers by St Stephen's Green.

The 142 to be fair was aimed at students in Rathmines going to Belfield - that's why it takes the route it does.

There are I know running time issues with the 14 (I've had the same problem) at particular times which leads to buses going missing.

Godge

lxflyer wrote: »

A 5-10 minute service means there is a bus every 5-10 minutes. At rush hour it is more frequent than that with the 25a/25b every 5 minutes on their own. With the bus lanes they generally take about 20-25 minutes max from Leeson Street.

So 10 minutes walk from Harcourt Street to Leeson Street, 5-10 minute wait for a bus giving you 15-20 minutes so far, plus a journey time of 20-25 minutes giving a total time of 35-45 minutes.

Let us just check the question asked.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

We have to wait until we have a functioning public transport system in the city before any of the traffic issues can be sorted. People need their cars as the public transport options are not adequate to meet the needs of may. Buses in particular are a complete mystery. Unless you know exactly where you are at all times you are likely to miss your stop and God help someone who is changing buses as they wander around looking for bustop number 4085:rolleyes:

I was in Harcourt Street and needed to get to Heuston Station to get a train. After researching all of the transport options walking turned out to be the most reliable choice. Welcome to 21st century Dublin

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

5-10minutes from Leeson Street to Hueston in rush hour is a little optimistic. Even google maps says 30 minutes. Still the uncertainty of the time the bus will actually arrive at Leeson Street, the 10 minute walk to Leeson Street and the traffic risk still made the 35 minute walk to Heuston the most reliable option as I could guarantee a start and end time. A bus may have gotten me there on time but there was no guarantee.

So 35 minutes walk is quicker than the 35-45 minutes suggested by lxflyer.

lxflyer wrote: »

Can I suggest that before you start going on a rant you might do some proper research first - there is a full national journey planner available to plan trips and it is invaluable for planning a journey by public transport.

Pot, kettle and maybe a look in the mirror here.

The poster said it would take longer by bus and even using your figures, he is right.

ArnieSilvia

You can either consider myself lucky, or, as I'd prefer to see it - having set my priorities right.

When buying a house, proximity to school and work was our first priority.

My kids walk to school, takes them 5 minutes. When they finish primary school they'll go to a secondary school on same estate, even closer to home.
My wife walks to work, 5 minutes
I drive to work 5 minutes but it's always off peak due to shift work. I could walk, 25 minutes. But worst thing ever is to finish off 12 hrs night shift, be wrecked, have shivers from it, and end up walking in cold rain. Brrr.

We have 2 cars but that's lifestyle related (1 for driving around and 1 for camping) and they see very little use.

Makes me wonder why people chose to buy property as they wish, having no consideration for future change of circumstances related to work opportunities, kids education incl 3rd level, access to amenities incl after school activities like music lessons/dance/gymnastics/arts/safe cycling paths for family trips on weekends/proximity of mountains for family hiking etc (depending on people's lifestyle which in fact is mainly dictated by their surroundings i.e. choice of what they can do)

If I was following same logic as many I know and buy a house I want for money I'm willing to spend I'd buy a 4 bed detached bungalow with huge garage in Longford where I could put a 2 post car lift and enjoy myself building racing cars. And complain about the traffic on N4. Or move to a cottage in woods somewhere in Wicklow and complain that it takes me ages to get to shop.

The thing about kids going across the city to get to school is equally stupid. I think that all restrictions related to faith should be lifted from state funded schools. It's sad to see that there is no spaces for kids in local schools while kids from outside take space. And at this stage the school itself is as important as after school interests of kids. If parents spent some time introducing kids to science, engineering or even cooking the difference between colleges would become minimal. Kids will develop skills further themselves if they want to. To back it up, whenever I do any work at home I bring my kids to show them how it's done. If they have interests we organize space for them and after school activities to develop further. We went last year to an open day at college and instantly they saw how helpful it was when it came to choosing subjects.

Calina

lxflyer wrote: »

Would none of the Xpresso routes suit (25x, 27x, 32x, 41x, 66x or 67x)?

I would certainly have thought changing to either of 46a or 145, the trick would be to leave it as long as possible - the two main routes would lose a lot of cross-city passengers by St Stephen's Green.

The 142 to be fair was aimed at students in Rathmines going to Belfield - that's why it takes the route it does.

There are I know running time issues with the 14 (I've had the same problem) at particular times which leads to buses going missing.

Missing 14s contributed to my problems with the 145 and the 46A. The bus which has most frequently gone missing for me is at 7am so I find it hard to believe the issue was a running time issue. Later in the day, yes I know they tend to bunch and get stuck from south to north.

Most effective place to change turned out to be Kildare Street and not St Stephen's Green because of the stop placement.

For the purposes of coming home. most effective place to change tended to be Dawson Street again as a couple of routes from UCD which were difficult to get onto UCD bound were easier to change from homebound. But the 14 duly tended to get stuck trying to get onto College Green at certain times.

I could drive the distance in 30 minutes by re-arranging my life very slightly and that's what I did.

Godge

Calina wrote: »

Distance wise, maybe, state of the streets wise, hit or miss, and on the north side of the city, probably lethal.

Also, not everyone likes cycling. This seems, in discussions, to get forgotten now and again.

There's a real lack of vision about coherence in moving people around. Not just cycling, or public transport or whatever; there is no coherent overview.

Regardless of whether or not people like cycling, there are other issues.

Health issues such as knee and hip problems.
School issues such as getting children to school and having to come home again to cycle. If you actually have children in school, you will be amazed to see that a high percentage of kids being dropped to school by car are by parents travelling on to work.

LXFlyer

Godge wrote: »

So 10 minutes walk from Harcourt Street to Leeson Street, 5-10 minute wait for a bus giving you 15-20 minutes so far, plus a journey time of 20-25 minutes giving a total time of 35-45 minutes.

Let us just check the question asked.


So 35 minutes walk is quicker than the 35-45 minutes suggested by lxflyer.

Pot, kettle and maybe a look in the mirror here.

The poster said it would take longer by bus and even using your figures, he is right.

He could have taken a bus from Charlotte Way to Dawson Street and changed there (14, 15/a/b, 140 onto 25/a/b or 145) - the waiting times would be miniscule. At peak times you are looking at buses at a minimum frequency of 5 minutes. That would have not taken more than 25 minutes. Similarly, a 122 or 68 to Rialto and a LUAS to Heuston would take a similar time.

The real point I was making was that he didn't know/look for the National Journey Planner (or Google Maps) both of which do provide the nearest public transport options, because his original post said there were none! There are tools out there to plan journeys by public transport - some people don't seem to know/want to know about them.

There are generally public transport options out there - yes they may involve a change, but there are options.

bk

Godge wrote: »

Regardless of whether or not people like cycling, there are other issues.

Health issues such as knee and hip problems.
School issues such as getting children to school and having to come home again to cycle.

Did you completely ignore what I posted here:

bk wrote:

No one ignores this, but for those people there is always public transport.

In Amsterdam 40% of people cycle to work every day, in Dublin it is about 5% As I mentioned above, Dublin is almost exactly like Amsterdam in every way, so why so few people cycle in Dublin versus Amsterdam.

The only difference I can see, is the vastly superior and safer cycling infrastructure in Amsterdam and the planners and policy makers actually understanding cyclists needs and focusing on it as a priority, rather then an afterthought like here in Ireland.

Of course not everyone will want to cycle, but the massive success of Dublin Bikes and the Cycle to Work scheme has proven that there is a massive pent up demand for cycling here in Ireland, just waiting for proper, safe, well maintained infrastructure.

And it would be amazing if we could get cycling usage up to 40% here. And this would benefit even those who don't wish to cycle and drive or take public transport instead, due to less congestion with all those people cycling.

It really is a one-one for everyone.

In other words, we aren't saying everyone should be cycling, but that there is no reason why we shouldn't be able to increase it from 5% to 40% like in Amsterdam. This in turn would have a positive knock on effect on buses for people who can't cycle.

Also no reason why children can't cycle to school, many kids have been doing that for decades. Younger kids can be carried in bike carriers, etc.