Random Running Questions

Ceepo

Sussex18 wrote: »

How does one breathe while running? What's the best way to maximise use of lung capacity? Does one ever push the abdomen out to try to get more air in? I'm aware that holding the head up and shoulders down is generally a good idea. And mouth or nose? I know that when not running breathing in through the nose and out through the mouth is generally considered the healthiest way to breathe. But is it practical while running?
Thoughts appreciated
S

Way to much for me to try cover on a post, and most on here wouldn't agree with me anyway

Get yourself a copy of "The Oxygen Advantage" by Patrick McKeown

Whether you choose to implement some or all of what he suggests is up to you. But it will definitely give you food for thought.

joe35

Main thing with breathing is to breathe out. Empty the lungs completely. In mindfulness they say 4,7,11. In for 7 out for 11 and 4 reps. I find in for 7 to slow, breath out for 11 to 13 seconds and take in through the mouth a fast full breathe.

I'd use the pace of my steps when breathing out, always try and force an extra breath out. Find it exhausting to do this for long periods but if going up a hill or prior to do a sprint finish etc I would do this for 6 or 8 reps. Makes you feel refreshed.

Constantly saying this to athletes I coach. One asked me to show him what I meant last week at training. We were in a group and me and him just started this breathing exercise. After only 1 lap we gained 80m on the group. He couldn't believe how effective it was.

Theory is, if you don't breathe out fully, you're circulating say 40% stale air 60% O2. If you empty the lungs it's 100% good oxygen being circulated

Ceepo

joe35 wrote: »

Main thing with breathing is to breathe out. Empty the lungs completely. In mindfulness they say 4,7,11. In for 7 out for 11 and 4 reps. I find in for 7 to slow, breath out for 11 to 13 seconds and take in through the mouth a fast full breathe.

I'd use the pace of my steps when breathing out, always try and force an extra breath out. Find it exhausting to do this for long periods but if going up a hill or prior to do a sprint finish etc I would do this for 6 or 8 reps. Makes you feel refreshed.

Constantly saying this to athletes I coach. One asked me to show him what I meant last week at training. We were in a group and me and him just started this breathing exercise. After only 1 lap we gained 80m on the group. He couldn't believe how effective it was.

Theory is, if you don't breathe out fully, you're circulating say 40% stale air 60% O2. If you empty the lungs it's 100% good oxygen being circulated

Just to be clear on the 1st part, are you saying to breathe through your mouth the whole time (at rest) or just while you're doing excersis

On the last part, is that your own theory?

Itziger

Breathe out for 11 to 13 seconds? Jeez, I think I got to 5 just now trying that.

But then again those mindlessness people are a bit different I find.

Ceepo

Itziger wrote: »

Breathe out for 11 to 13 seconds? Jeez, I think I got to 5 just now trying that.

But then again those mindlessness people are a bit different I find.

And removed from reality

skyblue46

Itziger wrote: »

Breathe out for 11 to 13 seconds? Jeez, I think I got to 5 just now trying that.

But then again those mindlessness people are a bit different I find.

I think I could just about manage 10 seconds sitting in a chair and relaxed before the vision starts to blur and I feel stoned. To breath out for 13 seconds while running...eh no! Then again a gain of 80m in 400m is a 20% gain...who needs Alphaflys?

joe35

Sorry folks, dropped the phone in water and had it in a rice bag to dry out��.

I never actually count the seconds when I breath, but I know from running in groups I'd breath out for alot longer than most.

Yes I'd half feel 'stoned' from doing this. Would only do 4 or 5 reps and then back to normal breathing.

On the theory, I was doing intense training as a junior 30 odd years ago. Can't even remember the coaches name but he told me this theory and I swear by it since.

On breathing in through the mouth. I use to always breath in through my nose until last year. Heard a junior coach in our club saying why would you use your smaller inlet (nose) to breathe in when your mouth is a bigger opening. Put it into practice and I'd agree.

I'd breath through my nose normally.

Folks I'm no expert and do no running now, to old and carrying a bit of weight, but I really can't emphasise enough the importance of breathing. It's getting fuel to the muscles so you want breathing to be as beneficial as you can make it.

Just my taughts

Itziger

Why do people who race near the back of the field overdress so, so much? I did a low-key trail race yesterday and I was admiring my dashing looks in a couple of pics just now. It was a mild, windy morning (not Ireland, btw) and looking at the slower runners I can't help but notice they're way overdressed. Hats, gloves, neck warmers, long tights, jackets. WTF? I was in a short sleeved T shirt and I swear it wasn't even cold on the start line.

Miklos

I think part of the appeal for a lot of people is getting all the gear.

IvoryTower

I would put it in the carrying a bottle of water while you run category of just not understanding that you'll survive without it

rainbow kirby

Itziger wrote: »

Why do people who race near the back of the field overdress so, so much? I did a low-key trail race yesterday and I was admiring my dashing looks in a couple of pics just now. It was a mild, windy morning (not Ireland, btw) and looking at the slower runners I can't help but notice they're way overdressed. Hats, gloves, neck warmers, long tights, jackets. WTF? I was in a short sleeved T shirt and I swear it wasn't even cold on the start line.

As a bit of a chubster here, full length leggings are more comfortable - but no way could I race in a jacket or a load of other stuff!

Bluesquare

Morning All,

From a club perspective is there any particular guidelines with regard ratios for coach v members for adults groups .? Does a running club coach need to have a set standard of courses done etc ?

As a small enough club - with a lot of social runners and no real elites at adult level hard to get decent coaches onboard .

Thanks
BS

Bassfish

Would anyone know of a decent light running jacket that's breathable but somewhat waterproof/showerproof for under €70? I know the really decent ones are €120+. I only need it for occasional use so all training doesn't have to stop when the weather is bad. I had a cheap one before but it was like wearing bin bag and I would get uncomfortably hot within ten minutes. Anyone know of the ones from Decathlon are any good? Cheers.

joe35

Hat and gloves when running, especially gloves.

jameshayes

Bassfish wrote: »

Would anyone know of a decent light running jacket that's breathable but somewhat waterproof/showerproof for under €70? I know the really decent ones are €120+. I only need it for occasional use so all training doesn't have to stop when the weather is bad. I had a cheap one before but it was like wearing bin bag and I would get uncomfortably hot within ten minutes. Anyone know of the ones from Decathlon are any good? Cheers.

https://www.mandmdirect.ie/01/details/AS2112/Asics-Mens-Accelerate-Wind-And-Waterproof-Hooded-Running-Jacket-Sulphur-Spring

Bassfish

jameshayes wrote: »

https://www.mandmdirect.ie/01/details/AS2112/Asics-Mens-Accelerate-Wind-And-Waterproof-Hooded-Running-Jacket-Sulphur-Spring

Sound man, thank you!

Klopp

First Marathon this year, hopefully i can stay injury-free and make it to the starting line. I am following a plan. Can someone advise if both speed and hill training are advisable? The plan I have has speed interval training but I keep hearing hill training been mentioned too

Ceepo

Klopp wrote: »

First Marathon this year, hopefully i can stay injury-free and make it to the starting line. I am following a plan. Can someone advise if both speed and hill training are advisable? The plan I have has speed interval training but I keep hearing hill training been mentioned too

Not trying to be a smart arse. But if you're following a plan stick to what ever is on the plan.
If you are 2nd guessing it then look for a plan that you're completely happy with.

Hill's can be included into any plan, but you need to know why you are doing them. Are they hill sprints, hill strides, what distance are the reps, what recovery.
All of these will provide a different stimulus depending on what you are trying to achieve..

DBB

IvoryTower wrote: »

I would put it in the carrying a bottle of water while you run category of just not understanding that you'll survive without it

Jayney. I carry water . I don't even notice I'm carrying it within a short distance. If I don't carry water, I can't sip as I go. If I don't sip as I go, I'm far more inclined to gulp water when I do get it. If I gulp water, that's the end of any comfort whilst running, as my temperamental upper stomach goes into spasm.
Particularly on longer runs and summer runs, I was always led to believe that if you're feeling thirsty, you've left it too late to hydrate. Carrying a bottle also means I can take gels during races when I want to, not when water stations dictate. In 2 of my most recent races, there were big distances between some water stations... people complaining about the drought all around me, whilst I was okay.
I know I'll survive without it, but jeez, I'd feel ill and sore by the time I get home if I didn't have it.
So it'd be unwise for me not to carry it. I didn't realise this puts me into a "category"!

ooter

Klopp wrote: »

First Marathon this year, hopefully i can stay injury-free and make it to the starting line. I am following a plan. Can someone advise if both speed and hill training are advisable? The plan I have has speed interval training but I keep hearing hill training been mentioned too

if you are doing the Dublin marathon you definitely need to do some hill training, even just adding some hills to your long runs once a week will definitely stand to you.
best of luck btw

Wottle

I had a private discussion with Tergat (of old from these parts) a few months back regarding hills. I'm sure he'll have no issue with me sharing his thoughts.
I ended up experimenting with hill sprints (already do a lot of the other stuff) with two women I coach. The reason I went with these two runners, they've been with me a long time and are injury free.
Both ran pbs in the Waterford half and their feedback on the hill sprints was all positive. As a result I added them to everyone elses weekly plan in the run up to Raheny, all had pbs and only one runner in the next %.
Think everyone who ran Raheny ran well but I can see the confidence and strength in the guys I coach, hill sprints are gold but only one component in the grand scheme.

Hey Dave. 100% hills should be included in all endurance athletes programmes from 800m to marathon male or female. For me with your marathon people these three types would be gold:

1) Short power hills (8-10 secs fast with 2.5 mins walk rec) Start with 2-3 and add 1 per week until you reach about 6-8 depending on the athlete. Do after a small easy run and the day before a workout day

2) Long runs done over rolling terrain vital also for aerobic development and strength endurance. Also the downhill bits good for eccentric strengthening of quads which are a muscle group that generally tired or cramps towards end of a marathon.

3) Aerobic Hills (1-3 mins long on a gradual incline with a float jog recovery back down). Key here is that the hill rep is ran just at a controlled steady pace not hard, reach the top and turn and jog back down. Do these perhaps using sets of 2-4 reps, take a 3-4 min break between sets and do 3-4 sets. Again the number of sets and reps depends on athlete!

Also like you have used doing longer tempo efforts like 3-5 miles reps @ marathon pace etc good over undulating terrain.

Moral of story include hills in training for all athletes, massive gains from these and missing out if not using. Just back off in the 1-2 weeks before key races as can be heavy on the legs. Hope that all makes sense!

And the benefits of hill sprints

Hey Dave, Yes you’re correct. So benefits as follows:

1) Improved speed & power
2) Improved running mechanics & efficiency
3) Improved strength or muscles, ligaments, tendons etc
4) Improved stroke volume of heart (amount of blood heart can pump per beat)
5) Help prime the body for key workout days the next day

Basically many strength, neuromuscular and cardiovascular adaptations going on. They are gold once progressed wisely each week. Also take the full 2.5-3 mins between each one, they’re alactic sprints so no lactate build up (only 8-10 secs long) and uses the ATP-CP system so must allow to fully recover after each one.

Itziger

Jeez, that guy knows his stuff. Fantastic info there and a right kick in the nuts for me as I've been ignoring hill work these last few years.....

Singer

Nice one for sharing Wottle! Any chance of Tergat coming back? I've sat down and read all his posts a few times now

Wottle

Singer wrote: »

Nice one for sharing Wottle! Any chance of Tergat coming back? I've sat down and read all his posts a few times now

I'm not too sure he will, the guy is in big demand and is abroad leading a team.

I met him for the first time in 2010 when he was teaching the level 1 athletics Coaching course and then a couple of years later for the level 2. I stayed in touch, seeking his advice, initially with juveniles I was coaching and now with adults, he always responds, the good ones always do.
Dave Taylor a sub 4 minute miler of yesteryear has been another massive help to me and what a waste he hasn't been brought into some kind of setup. A few years ago the club I was in was using him as a hi vis vest for the Juvenile group, scandalous really.
I saw Jeremy Lyons put out a tweet last week regarding Feidhlim and the super work he's doing and he encouraged other coaches to reach out, more should.

Klopp

Ceepo wrote: »

Not trying to be a smart arse. But if you're following a plan stick to what ever is on the plan.
If you are 2nd guessing it then look for a plan that you're completely happy with.

Hill's can be included into any plan, but you need to know why you are doing them. Are they hill sprints, hill strides, what distance are the reps, what recovery.
All of these will provide a different stimulus depending on what you are trying to achieve..

ooter wrote: »

if you are doing the Dublin marathon you definitely need to do some hill training, even just adding some hills to your long runs once a week will definitely stand to you.
best of luck btw

Thanks guys, i wasn't sure myself and it's not in the plan but i can easily include these once a week or every second. Thankfully i asked nice and early

Ceepo

Wottle wrote: »

I had a private discussion with Tergat (of old from these parts) a few months back regarding hills. I'm sure he'll have no issue with me sharing his thoughts.
I ended up experimenting with hill sprints (already do a lot of the other stuff) with two women I coach. The reason I went with these two runners, they've been with me a long time and are injury free.
Both ran pbs in the Waterford half and their feedback on the hill sprints was all positive. As a result I added them to everyone elses weekly plan in the run up to Raheny, all had pbs and only one runner in the next %.
Think everyone who ran Raheny ran well but I can see the confidence and strength in the guys I coach, hill sprints are gold but only one component in the grand scheme.




And the benefits of hill sprints

Great post, Thanks.
It puts a bit of "meat on the bone" to what I posted regards hill work and the different stimulus that it can provide depending on what you're trying to achieve.
I'd agree with him on everything except the mechanics part, but that's another days story.

I also happen to know the man personally for a long number of years. I used to race against him back in the day. A real gent of a man.. tough nut to crack when he was racing.
He is a lost to Athletics in ireland, not just a juvenile level but also at senior level..

joe35

Another point on doing hill work, it gives you great confidence during racing. People see a hill and think they're not fit for it before even trying

Sunny Dayz

joe35 wrote: »

Another point on doing hill work, it gives you great confidence during racing. People see a hill and think they're not fit for it before even trying

This is so true. I've had a mental block when it comes to hills. But hill work has definitely helped with that.

Lazare

joe35 wrote: »

Another point on doing hill work, it gives you great confidence during racing. People see a hill and think they're not fit for it before even trying

Great point that's often overlooked. They mention that a lot in Faster Road Racing.

jfh

i was at a race yesterday & the winner did about 10 hill sprints directly after the race, whats the rationale on this?