Random Running Questions

Ososlo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

No worries. Just my grumpy nervous pre-workout trigger finger. My concern about the Steve Magness quote is that the context wasn't provided and reading the broader article, he seems to contradict himself a little, later suggesting that an even split may not be the way to go. Context is all-important and with 'Inventive User Name' we don't really have very much. It's not the splitting 8 mile runs that would concern me (I am, after all a serial doubler and tripler), but rather that one would get benefit from doing so on a weekly mileage of 50mpw. That mileage is low (relative to the OPs 16-17 min 5k achievements), so splitting an 8 mile run could come at the cost of endurance. In Ososlo's context (improving runner, increasing mileage, 5k =~23 mins, recent injury history) it may make a lot more sense. But that's just my 2c. Incidentally, Magness does have a 4/4 split run in his 5k program, but just the one, in the 21 weeks of training.

No one told me Haven't had a running injury in yonks!

Ososlo

ecoli wrote: »

My ears are burning.

Definitely will weigh in on this as soon as I get a chance to run through the post's and take time to form an post from the though process

Mine have been burning all day! Now I know why!

Krusty_Clown

Ososlo wrote: »

No one told me Haven't had a running injury in yonks!

Sorry, thought you eased back recently due to niggles.

Ososlo

ger664 wrote: »

sorry for the short answer. My personal view is that taking sleeping tablets only cures the symptom not the cause. Overtraining may be the underline problem for your sleep issues, then again it may not. Anyway link to a very good post on the matter from the famous Tunney

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70639421

Ah no the sleeping issue goes back to long before I started running or doing any exercise, since childhood.
Just wondered about people's experiences about training while taking them and if it effected performance.
Thanks for the link though. An interesting read.

Ososlo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Sorry, thought you eased back recently due to niggles.

No, the mean man just made me take some 'time out' and that's why I'm currently building back up after a 12 day break.

barryoneill50

Ososlo wrote: »

No one told me Haven't had a running injury in yonks!

you will if you keep doing doubles:D:D........(joke joke)

M.J.M.C

Hi guys

All my races from the Dublin race series (5 miles 10K and Half Mara) have all been at 7min 18/20sec pace.
I never wear a watch or time myself I just workout my pace after I cross the line.

Did the dcm last year in 3.50 was comfortable but feel fitter this year.

The half marathon this week was a nightmare for me. I STUPIDLY thought I would stick with the 1hr 30 pacers but dropped off after 4miles, spent a mile at a near crawl but then got back to my own pace and crossed the line at 1.36 which happens to be 7mins 20sec a mile.

Ive two questions. .given that 7.20 seems to be my natural pace, is a 3.30 mara do able? (8min pace)
With 5 weeks to go, how many LSR's should I do. Ive no plan but run a 20k once a week (also 7min 15-20sec pace) and plenty 10ks too.

Thanks for ANY replies, this forum has tought me so much.
Ps - next year...ill have a training plan.

RedRunner

M.J.M.C wrote: »

Hi guys

All my races from the Dublin race series (5 miles 10K and Half Mara) have all been at 7min 18/20sec pace.
I never wear a watch or time myself I just workout my pace after I cross the line.

Did the dcm last year in 3.50 was comfortable but feel fitter this year.

The half marathon this week was a nightmare for me. I STUPIDLY thought I would stick with the 1hr 30 pacers but dropped off after 4miles, spent a mile at a near crawl but then got back to my own pace and crossed the line at 1.36 which happens to be 7mins 20sec a mile.

Ive two questions. .given that 7.20 seems to be my natural pace, is a 3.30 mara do able? (8min pace)
With 5 weeks to go, how many LSR's should I do. Ive no plan but run a 20k once a week (also 7min 15-20sec pace) and plenty 10ks too.

Thanks for ANY replies, this forum has tought me so much.
Ps - next year...ill have a training plan.

Really?

If this is true, then you left much better times out there in the 5 mile and 10k and that is on the assumption that that pace is your true pace for a HM.

Re the marathon time, you'd need to post a bit more information re running history and endurance work done, number of long runs done etc but I expect longest run of 20k is not sufficient to accurately predict sub 3.30 which in normal circumstances I would suggest would definitely be doable with a 1:36 HM time.

There will be others who will come on here and explain why much better than I can bit thought I'd just kick it off anyway:)

M.J.M.C

Thanks for the reply.
Yeah all of them were about that pace 7.20 with the exception of the 5mile...about 7.10 for that.
I didnt think "this is only a 10k ill give it a bit more than usual" I just run my run. I tried that idea for the half and it nearly killed me

More background, since the last mara in Oct once a week I run to work 20k. Two 10ks in the week also. Have done three 31k runs (but not in 3 months now) and 3 24k runs again not in ages. None of which I time...
I really should have a training plan.
Just wondering what I should do for the next 5 weeks. That bad start to the half has messed me up mentally. Thanks again.

davedanon

Going back a bit, I get that 'damaging future health' thing from my BiL, who is in the pharmaceutical sector, and fancies himself as a medical professional - practically a doctor. He always says things like: "but, do runners run a serious risk of early onset arthritis?" It is extremely annoying.

Ososlo

I don't know anything about how 'excessive' running effects people in later life as I don't know any older runners.
So do many of you know runners who would have run a lot in their younger years (high mileage, marathons etc) and how are now in their 70s, 80s and how are their bodies in general and how is their general health?

TFBubendorfer

M.J.M.C wrote: »

More background, since the last mara in Oct once a week I run to work 20k. Two 10ks in the week also. Have done three 31k runs (but not in 3 months now) and 3 24k runs again not in ages. None of which I time...

Slightly conflicting signals here. A 1:36 half would indicate that a 3:30 should easily be within your capabilities. However, your half-arsed training on the other hand ...

I really should have a training plan.

You gave the answer yourself You will never get anywhere near your potential if you don't train properly, and someone who can run a 1:36 half off inconsistent training despite pacing himself badly sure has some running potential.

TFBubendorfer

davedanon wrote: »

Going back a bit, I get that 'damaging future health' thing from my BiL, who is in the pharmaceutical sector, and fancies himself as a medical professional - practically a doctor. He always says things like: "but, do runners run a serious risk of early onset arthritis?" It is extremely annoying.

Ask him if he knows any studies that would confirm that running leads to arthritis, or similar.

The usual nonsense that gets thrown about is that runners will destroy their knees, even though longterm studies have shown that there is no statistical difference in knee problems when comparing runners and non-runners.

28064212

davedanon wrote: »

Going back a bit, I get that 'damaging future health' thing from my BiL, who is in the pharmaceutical sector, and fancies himself as a medical professional - practically a doctor. He always says things like: "but, do runners run a serious risk of early onset arthritis?" It is extremely annoying.

Get him to prove it. Or at a minimum provide some sort of data (and data is not the plural of anecdotes). Then provide him with a list of, for example, the 159 men between the ages of 60 and 65 who finished the DCM last year.

Tbh though, none of that's actually going to help. People who make passing comments like that aren't looking for a debate. They've already decided. Paying it any notice whatsoever is giving it too much attention. Just smile, say "Mm-hmm", and nod your head. And then head out on your mid-week 25k

M.J.M.C

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Slightly conflicting signals here. A 1:36 half would indicate that a 3:30 should easily be within your capabilities. However, your half-arsed training on the other hand ...



You gave the answer yourself You will never get anywhere near your potential if you don't train properly, and someone who can run a 1:36 half off inconsistent training despite pacing himself badly sure has some running potential.

Thanks,
Yeah I'm really seeing the pitfalls now of not having a training plan, I'm here with 5 weeks to go thinking...what do I do now?
It's not that I'm not arsed, it's that I usually just do the same runs every week - I never did a set plan with LSR's etc, but I certainly will next year.

Running has gone from a thing I did to lose weight, to a hobby to now being something I want to take more seriously...

Any advice on what I should do with 5 weeks left? 2/3 LSRs?

Thanks again everyone for the help.

youngrun

Ososlo wrote: »

I don't know anything about how 'excessive' running effects people in later life as I don't know any older runners.
So do many of you know runners who would have run a lot in their younger years (high mileage, marathons etc) and how are now in their 70s, 80s and how are their bodies in general and how is their general health?

I ran a lot in school college and 20s,fairly competitove not as much now ( mid 30s ), but many of the real top end guys my era and ten years ahead are retired,or just run to keep weight off, I guess at that level its natural given the professional intensity of their training and cometition. Among the older guys 50+ many still compete but a good few are really battered. The drop off in performance from 60 on is remarkable, guys would lose close on a minute over 10k a year ( based on maybe 5 runners at club I am with over last decade). Still healthy in general terms but probably crocked walking maybe arthritis too has hit.

Ososlo

youngrun wrote: »

I ran a lot in school college and 20s,fairly competitove not as much now ( mid 30s ), but many of the real top end guys my era and ten years ahead are retired,or just run to keep weight off, I guess at that level its natural given the professional intensity of their training and cometition. Among the older guys 50+ many still compete but a good few are really battered. The drop off in performance from 60 on is remarkable, guys would lose close on a minute over 10k a year ( based on maybe 5 runners at club I am with over last decade). Still healthy in general terms but probably crocked walking maybe arthritis too has hit.

So you think that's due to running?

youngrun

Ososlo wrote: »

So you think that's due to running?

Yes , knowing these guys history. Probably a bit of everything, continuing when the body is wrecked , not getting physio or maintenance work done ( A big factor in my view) , and just the cumulative effect of hard miles .

dna_leri

davedanon wrote: »

Going back a bit, I get that 'damaging future health' thing from my BiL, who is in the pharmaceutical sector, and fancies himself as a medical professional - practically a doctor. He always says things like: "but, do runners run a serious risk of early onset arthritis?" It is extremely annoying.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/25/why-runners-dont-get-knee-arthritis/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

RayCun

dna_leri wrote: »

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/25/why-runners-dont-get-knee-arthritis/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

hmmm

Measured over a particular distance, “running and walking are essentially indistinguishable,” in terms of the wear and tear they may inflict on knees.

That may be true, but there are few walkers putting in 50-150km weeks

Inventive User Name

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

No worries. Just my grumpy nervous pre-workout trigger finger. My concern about the Steve Magness quote is that the context wasn't provided and reading the broader article, he seems to contradict himself a little, later suggesting that an even split may not be the way to go. Context is all-important and with 'Inventive User Name' we don't really have very much. It's not the splitting 8 mile runs that would concern me (I am, after all a serial doubler and tripler), but rather that one would get benefit from doing so on a weekly mileage of 50mpw. That mileage is low (relative to the OPs 16-17 min 5k achievements), so splitting an 8 mile run could come at the cost of endurance. In Ososlo's context (improving runner, increasing mileage, 5k =~23 mins, recent injury history) it may make a lot more sense. But that's just my 2c. Incidentally, Magness does have a 4/4 split run in his 5k program, but just the one, in the 21 weeks of training.

Sorry for the delay with the reply, and thanks for the feedback. I ran 16:57 off 35mpw last year, but couldn't train properly from July to December due to health issues. Just got back to the level I was at last year in the last 2 months or so.
I was splitting the 8 miler, partially because I am tight for time on that day, and because I found it easier to recover from the hard workout I do the day before, and feel fresher for the mile repeats I do the day after.
Currently running 16:55 off 42mpw and the long-term goal is 15:59. Obviously my endurance isn't where it needs to be atm to achieve that. I'll switch to 8 miles on that day from here on.

ecoli

Inventive User Name wrote: »

Sorry for the delay with the reply, and thanks for the feedback. I ran 16:57 off 35mpw last year, but couldn't train properly from July to December due to health issues. Just got back to the level I was at last year in the last 2 months or so.
I was splitting the 8 miler, partially because I am tight for time on that day, and because I found it easier to recover from the hard workout I do the day before, and feel fresher for the mile repeats I do the day after.
Currently running 16:55 off 42mpw and the long-term goal is 15:59. Obviously my endurance isn't where it needs to be atm to achieve that. I'll switch to 8 miles on that day from here on.

This is where context is important

In this incidence the aim of these runs is not aerobic development but rather recovery. In this case I would say keep doing what you are doing on the in between day but on other days aim for singles. The other alternative (which may not be possible if in a club setting) is space your sessions out a bit more 48 hr turnabout between sessions can be very physically demanding and you may get more bang for your buck off low mileage if you space them out a bit more to perhaps 2-3 days between sessions (Tues/Fri or Wed/Sat)

HeyArnold320

Hey,

New to the thread but I have a few questions.

I am fairly new to running but I have caught the bug and I'm enjoying it more and more. I do my best to get out twice a week, because I work strange hours, getting out for a run on a work day is rarely possible, so for now, twice a week is the most I can manage.
Because of this, I generally go out and do one long run and then a medium. (For me that's 15K and a 10K a week)
I have signed up for my first half marathon in a few months. I have been given some training plans to try stick to but I find it hard to keep up with the schedule. The plan consists of much more frequent but shorter runs which is hard for me to do.

It also seems that my average pace is nearly always 5:30, regardless of my distance (15K is the max I have managed so far)
Does anyone have any advice for getting ready for this half marathon. Does the training I'm currently doing seem sufficient for completing the race?

Thanks

TFBubendorfer

M.J.M.C wrote: »

Any advice on what I should do with 5 weeks left? 2/3 LSRs?

Well, to be perfectly honest you left it too late to make any real difference.

A couple of 30k-ish long runs won't go amiss, as long as you're able to recover from them, but the effect on your performance in 5 weeks' time will be small.

Running is a long term game. 5 weeks is nothing.

Before I sound too negative, you'll still be in better shape than half the field so no need to panic.

SeanPuddin

HeyArnold320 wrote: »

Hey,

New to the thread but I have a few questions.

I am fairly new to running but I have caught the bug and I'm enjoying it more and more. I do my best to get out twice a week, because I work strange hours, getting out for a run on a work day is rarely possible, so for now, twice a week is the most I can manage.
Because of this, I generally go out and do one long run and then a medium. (For me that's 15K and a 10K a week)
I have signed up for my first half marathon in a few months. I have been given some training plans to try stick to but I find it hard to keep up with the schedule. The plan consists of much more frequent but shorter runs which is hard for me to do.

It also seems that my average pace is nearly always 5:30, regardless of my distance (15K is the max I have managed so far)
Does anyone have any advice for getting ready for this half marathon. Does the training I'm currently doing seem sufficient for completing the race?

Thanks

Probably just up the road from you in terms of running. You'll need to stick to a plan fairly strictly if you want to run and enjoy a half marathon. Most beginner's half marathon plans would involve a lot of slow easy miles. To me 5:30min/km seems too fast, and 2 days a week doesn't seem enough. So slow down and get out more often! My half marathon pace would be 5:20ish (I think) and I do my easy runs at 6:15-30ish.

HeyArnold320

SeanPuddin wrote: »

Probably just up the road from you in terms of running. You'll need to stick to a plan fairly strictly if you want to run and enjoy a half marathon. Most beginner's half marathon plans would involve a lot of slow easy miles. To me 5:30min/km seems too fast, and 2 days a week doesn't seem enough. So slow down and get out more often! My half marathon pace would be 5:20ish (I think) and I do my easy runs at 6:15-30ish.

Thanks for that. I can get to 15K and enjoy it, I reckon I could manage the last 5K for the half marathon but it would be tough. I would love to get out more often but it's rare that I can. Hopefully when I get closer to the day I can squeeze in another day.
So that is why I am trying to get out for a long run to see if I can manage the distance which, so far, it seems that I can

Krusty_Clown

Inventive User Name wrote: »

Sorry for the delay with the reply, and thanks for the feedback. I ran 16:57 off 35mpw last year, but couldn't train properly from July to December due to health issues. Just got back to the level I was at last year in the last 2 months or so.
I was splitting the 8 miler, partially because I am tight for time on that day, and because I found it easier to recover from the hard workout I do the day before, and feel fresher for the mile repeats I do the day after.
Currently running 16:55 off 42mpw and the long-term goal is 15:59. Obviously my endurance isn't where it needs to be atm to achieve that. I'll switch to 8 miles on that day from here on.

I absolutely agree with ecoli's assessment. If the 8 mile run is for recovery, and it's working for you, then there is absolutely no need to change it. I'd just be weary of considering it as the 'endurance' portion of your weekly training plan and would suggest that if endurance is a concern, you should probably try and address this at some other point in the week, with a long steady run, or some other strategy. Might be useful to post a broad outline of your 5k training plan?

HelenAnne

youngrun wrote: »

Yes , knowing these guys history. Probably a bit of everything, continuing when the body is wrecked , not getting physio or maintenance work done ( A big factor in my view) , and just the cumulative effect of hard miles .

Anecdotally, I would agree. I know loads and loads of recreational runners, running for a good many years, who are probably in better shape than most sedentary people. But some of the real elites, who put in years of hard miles from a young age, are limping around now.

I don't think that applies to most of us on the forum though -- I hope I'll be healthier than a sedentary person if I am still running in my sixties and seventies, but I'm a recreational runner who took it up in my mid-thirties. My body won't have taken the battering that a superfast marathon runner, doing 100+ mile weeks for years has given theirs.

With studies on runners, is often hard to know what kind of runner they mean. And when you look at older runners and how their knees are holding up etc, you need to take into account how long they've been running -- loads of runners in their sixties have been running twenty years, rather than forty years, which must make a difference to the wear and tear?

Inventive User Name

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I absolutely agree with ecoli's assessment. If the 8 mile run is for recovery, and it's working for you, then there is absolutely no need to change it. I'd just be weary of considering it as the 'endurance' portion of your weekly training plan and would suggest that if endurance is a concern, you should probably try and address this at some other point in the week, with a long steady run, or some other strategy. Might be useful to post a broad outline of your 5k training plan?

I do a 'long run' of 8 miles, and two other steady/easy runs of 7 and 6 miles, apart from the 2x4. The other days are fartleks, mile repeats, and 5km at race effort.

Why always me

Random question here, I want to keep fit over the winter, iv had bad knees in the past, just wondering, do ye find much difference running on road, on treadmill , grass etc, would proper runners be just as important, iv never done much road or treadmill running and play gaa during the summer, but as I get older and have a family iv been training less and getting to play less, so come oct I'm not awful fit, I prob won't play next year, so basically anyone with badish knees really suffer road running and find treadmill or grass better,