Eliot Rodger and TFL or True Force Loneliness.

Magaggie

Magaggie wrote: »

Well it's not as brutal as that. It's more that, it could be just sh-tty luck, but if it's a neverending experience for someone, maybe they need to harness whatever tools they have for doing something to help themselves. That includes seeking help from other people - it doesn't have to be entirely up to the individual.

I can see from personal experience how people can get very wrapped up in rejection and so on. I've had plenty myself but thankfully I can handle it without driving over people or whatever. Unfortunately broaching the subject generally leads to being laughed at, told I'm basing my views on a small sample of people or attempts at placation with platitudes that personal experience don't bear out.

Sleepy

bnt wrote: »

Some of the comments here can be paraphrased as "if you're lonely, it's your own fault". I can imagine that becoming a bit tiresome after a while - to be told "you're doing it wrong, go away", with no follow-up, no constructive advice on how to do it "right". The closest some guys get to "helpful" advice is the pick-up artist (PUA) scene, which is a horror show on its own. :eek:

Well, who else's fault is it if you're lonely?

I'm sure there are plenty of us on these forums that have experienced lonely times. I know I certainly found lonely when I first moved to Dublin to start my career and broke up with my girlfriend of the time shortly afterwards. The solution was to make more of an effort to socialise with my work colleagues, to meet up with some of the other people I knew from college that had made the same move to Dublin as frequently as I could and, tbh, joining boards.ie and attending some of the beers etc. played it's part too. It takes time, and some initial effort, to set down roots in a new place and to make new friends.

Elliot Rodger obviously needed therapy to help him deal with the real world; to accept that while he wasn't some rock-star that women would automatically flock to he was a reasonably decent looking chap who, judging purely on his car, wasn't without the financial means to make a decent life for himself if he put in the effort to get to know people, to form friendships. I haven't read much about him tbh, but in this era of internet dating surely it's easier than ever to get out there and meet women. Of course, if you're so self-entitled that you believe the most beautiful women on any given dating site should be falling over herself to snag a date with you, you're going to have a bad time. If you make the effort to put together a decent profile and contact women who seem interesting to you I can't see it taking that long to find some dates. Sure, most probably won't lead to anything but that's to be expected. And that brings us back to the root of the problem: however Elliot Rodger was raised, it resulted in a young man with wildly unrealistic expectations of the world.

Thoie

Deleted User wrote: »

I can see from personal experience how people can get very wrapped up in rejection and so on. I've had plenty myself but thankfully I can handle it without driving over people or whatever. Unfortunately broaching the subject generally leads to being laughed at, told I'm basing my views on a small sample of people or attempts at placation with platitudes that personal experience don't bear out.

Even though I'm of the opinion that we spend far too much time running off to talk to professionals every 5 minutes to discuss the trauma of breaking a nail, this is one of those situations where a professional would be more useful than friends/family. (Not for buttonftw - for people who would like to talk about things).

Friends/family don't have the tools (or the time) to go through things with a fine tooth comb, so they inevitably resort to either generic platitudes (there's someone out there for everyone, there's plenty more fish in the sea, she was never good enough for you), or amazing tales from Hello magazine (I read about this couple who only met when they were both 157!), well meaning suggestions (have you tried joining a club? I hear online dating's very popular - that's how Father McMurphy met his Thai bride), or, in your scenario above, an element of mocking (mostly an attempt to keep things "light", because they don't even want to look at their own lives).

This lack of someone to talk to is possibly what's driving people to some of the online communities. They may see these groups as "support", but they're mostly focused on externalising the problem (it's the wominz fault). In the past, spinsters and bachelors just got on with things. Now there are internet groups telling them it's not their fault, it sucks, and here's who you can blame.


Here's Laci Green discussing the topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPFcspwbrq8

Sleepy

Thoie wrote: »

Friends/family don't have the tools (or the time) to go through things with a fine tooth comb, so they inevitably resort to either generic platitudes.... or, in your scenario above, an element of mocking (mostly an attempt to keep things "light", because they don't even want to look at their own lives).

Or quite simply, they're trying to be polite. It's no easy thing to tell a friend or family member that they're setting their sights too high for what they themselves have to offer.

Pawwed Rig

Thoie wrote: »

Even though I'm of the opinion that we spend far too much time running off to talk to professionals every 5 minutes to discuss the trauma of breaking a nail, this is one of those situations where a professional would be more useful than friends/family. (Not for buttonftw - for people who would like to talk about things).

The high levels of suicide and un diagnosed depression in Ireland would seem to indicate we rarely seek the opportunity to talk to professionals

Seriously?

bnt wrote: »

The closest some guys get to "helpful" advice is the pick-up artist (PUA) scene, which is a horror show on its own. :eek:

I'm not sure that is true, he was after all a member of puahate, which was a site that set out to expose the 'scams' of PUA community.

Seems like this tragic event is being used as a oppurunity to beat men in general and the mra movement in particular with.

Thoie

Thoie wrote: »

Even though I'm of the opinion that we spend far too much time running off to talk to professionals every 5 minutes to discuss the trauma of breaking a nail, this is one of those situations where a professional would be more useful than friends/family. (Not for buttonftw - for people who would like to talk about things).

Done the professional thing, they're not exactly encouraged to tell people to wise up. :pac:

Friends/family don't have the tools (or the time) to go through things with a fine tooth comb, so they inevitably resort to either generic platitudes (there's someone out there for everyone, there's plenty more fish in the sea, she was never good enough for you), or amazing tales from Hello magazine (I read about this couple who only met when they were both 157!), well meaning suggestions (have you tried joining a club? I hear online dating's very popular - that's how Father McMurphy met his Thai bride), or, in your scenario above, an element of mocking (mostly an attempt to keep things "light", because they don't even want to look at their own lives).

Sleepy wrote: »

but in this era of internet dating surely it's easier than ever to get out there and meet women. Of course, if you're so self-entitled that you believe the most beautiful women on any given dating site should be falling over herself to snag a date with you, you're going to have a bad time. If you make the effort to put together a decent profile and contact women who seem interesting to you I can't see it taking that long to find some dates. Sure, most probably won't lead to anything but that's to be expected. And that brings us back to the root of the problem: however Elliot Rodger was raised, it resulted in a young man with wildly unrealistic expectations of the world.

Again to bring personal experience into it unfortunately (:pac: ) if someone ain't feeling the most confident then online dating probably isn't the best idea. For fellas at least.
The 2 bits quoted above mention expectations and the like and it is a fair point. However when you do things right and hold yourself to what seems like a standard expected and above what other people hold themselves to and nothing comes along for years it's pretty annoying.
Without trying to give too much away one personal example would be a bunch of girls from different circles said if they heard that a guy did something they'd want nothing to do with him. A few guys did that thing, the girls know about it, no backlash and there's now a couple. So when big pronouncements about a specific topic are made and shown to be rubbish while the loser watches and follows the "moral" stuff he's suppose to there's that extra little bit of resentment that can build up.
(Again in this particular situation I'm not that worried/jealous personally, the girls are quite dull as it happens :pac: If however I was the in-love-with-every-woman type then there'd be a little resentment :P )

gctest50

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

.........Basically according to his theory society creates losers and misfits and kooks who then get blamed for acting out and living lives they were forced to live in the first place...........

Is it not just a sort of natural selection ?

Thankfully " Bill1224601 " probably won't reproduce, just hope he won't go on a killing rampage.

Sleepy

Deleted User wrote: »

Again to bring personal experience into it unfortunately (:pac: ) if someone ain't feeling the most confident then online dating probably isn't the best idea. For fellas at least.
The 2 bits quoted above mention expectations and the like and it is a fair point. However when you do things right and hold yourself to what seems like a standard expected and above what other people hold themselves to and nothing comes along for years it's pretty annoying.

Again, based purely on what little I've read about this guy, he didn't "do things right". He seemed to expect to be able to hit the gym for a week or two to get a perfect body and that this combined with his BMW would make him entitled to sex with women.

That's simply delusional. There probably are those who can get sex primarily based on their six-packs but, you can guarantee, it's taken a lot more than than 2 weeks in a gym to obtain that body and, even then, they'll have to make some effort to charm (or at least not repulse) those who'd be attracted to them for their body.

Sure, it can be depressing to watch other guys attracting women that you're attracted to and doubly so if you consider yourself to be a nicer or morally better person than them. Unfortunately, it tends to be through this lens that we judge the difference between ourselves and those other guys, ignoring the fact that they might be more physically attractive, better dressed and groomed and just back from a hang-gliding trip in the Andes. This then leads to the "women just like assholes" / "nice guys don't get a look in" / "women are so shallow, I'm a way better person than him" whining.

TBH, this is one thing the PUA scene does have right: you need to make an effort to be attractive to the other sex. Whether that's by improving your diet and hitting the gym regularly, buying nicer clothes or by cultivating new interests/hobbies that give you something interesting to talk about. Being a nice guy who's 3 stone over-weight, dresses like a slob and whose conversational interests don't stretch much beyond Reddit, Gaming, Sci-Fi and Fantasy is going to limit your options to, pretty much, your female equivalent.

Make improvements to what you're offering and your options increase. You're still unlikely to wind up with Natalie Portman in your bed but you're far less likely to be there alone.

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

Again, based purely on what little I've read about this guy, he didn't "do things right". He seemed to expect to be able to hit the gym for a week or two to get a perfect body and that this combined with his BMW would make him entitled to sex with women.

That's simply delusional. There probably are those who can get sex primarily based on their six-packs but, you can guarantee, it's taken a lot more than than 2 weeks in a gym to obtain that body and, even then, they'll have to make some effort to charm (or at least not repulse) those who'd be attracted to them for their body.

Sure, it can be depressing to watch other guys attracting women that you're attracted to and doubly so if you consider yourself to be a nicer or morally better person than them. Unfortunately, it tends to be through this lens that we judge the difference between ourselves and those other guys, ignoring the fact that they might be more physically attractive, better dressed and groomed and just back from a hang-gliding trip in the Andes. This then leads to the "women just like assholes" / "nice guys don't get a look in" / "women are so shallow, I'm a way better person than him" whining.

TBH, this is one thing the PUA scene does have right: you need to make an effort to be attractive to the other sex. Whether that's by improving your diet and hitting the gym regularly, buying nicer clothes or by cultivating new interests/hobbies that give you something interesting to talk about. Being a nice guy who's 3 stone over-weight, dresses like a slob and whose conversational interests don't stretch much beyond Reddit, Gaming, Sci-Fi and Fantasy is going to limit your options to, pretty much, your female equivalent.

Make improvements to what you're offering and your options increase. You're still unlikely to wind up with Natalie Portman in your bed but you're far less likely to be there alone.

I was trying to talk more in general rather than this particular mental case. If it wasn't "women" that were the problem he probably would've decided it was blacks or asians or liberals or people who drive foreign cars or who drink coffee with extra flavours added.


And again when it comes to online dating it can really reinforce the fact that the niceties and platitudes are just that. Personally it makes me question the honesty of the people involved. If they won't admit that me being a lardarse is a pretty huge impediment to finding someone then what will they be honest about? When they do the opposite of what they said they would and the only apparent reason for going against "principles" is because a guy is hot ya wonder how much they'll put up with.

Careful though, no discussion of PUA is allowed on here! :pac:

Sleepy

Deleted User wrote: »

When they do the opposite of what they said they would and the only apparent reason for going against "principles" is because a guy is hot ya wonder how much they'll put up with.

People do this all the time for a very simple reason: attraction isn't a mathematical formlua. Sometimes we'll put up with some undesirable traits in a partner that we wouldn't in someone that didn't have their other positive ones. e.g. they might data a smoker with kids because he's physically attractive, funny and kind when previously they'd say they didn't want to date anyone that smoked or that had kids.

In fact, it's often the "check-list" approach to finding a partner that leads to marital break-ups. You see it all the time when couples get together in their early 30's, marry and have kids because they each "checked enough of the boxes" only to end up separating shortly afterwards as they simply weren't compatible.

--LOS--

Thoie wrote: »

Sometimes people are lonely through no particular fault of anyone. This is true for people in relationships as well - a bad relationship can be very isolating, depending on circumstances.

People can be lonely without being selfish, hateful, self-centered, etc. I wouldn't say anyone necessarily deserves to be alone, but the bare facts are that some people are, and they just have to get on with it. No-one owes them companionship.

Exactly. It may or may not be their own fault that they're lonely. But it is hardly the fault of some girls that are just strangers to him that have rejected him in the past.

Unfortunately I am familiar with the behaviour of the guy in the video. I could well have imagined things escalating like that for my ex. This particular story is all over the news but there are lots of guys out there that have the same attitudes, and are either keeping it under control or haven't lost control yet, at least in a way that is perceived as extreme like this guy. But there are a lot of lesser evils happening. I've had my life under threat and the lives of people I know, the gardai did zero. It's not that I'm demonising men either, but this sort of extreme behaviour seems to be associated more so with men.

diveout

Sleepy wrote: »

Again, based purely on what little I've read about this guy, he didn't "do things right". He seemed to expect to be able to hit the gym for a week or two to get a perfect body and that this combined with his BMW would make him entitled to sex with women.

That's simply delusional. There probably are those who can get sex primarily based on their six-packs but, you can guarantee, it's taken a lot more than than 2 weeks in a gym to obtain that body and, even then, they'll have to make some effort to charm (or at least not repulse) those who'd be attracted to them for their body.

Sure, it can be depressing to watch other guys attracting women that you're attracted to and doubly so if you consider yourself to be a nicer or morally better person than them. Unfortunately, it tends to be through this lens that we judge the difference between ourselves and those other guys, ignoring the fact that they might be more physically attractive, better dressed and groomed and just back from a hang-gliding trip in the Andes. This then leads to the "women just like assholes" / "nice guys don't get a look in" / "women are so shallow, I'm a way better person than him" whining.

TBH, this is one thing the PUA scene does have right: you need to make an effort to be attractive to the other sex. Whether that's by improving your diet and hitting the gym regularly, buying nicer clothes or by cultivating new interests/hobbies that give you something interesting to talk about. Being a nice guy who's 3 stone over-weight, dresses like a slob and whose conversational interests don't stretch much beyond Reddit, Gaming, Sci-Fi and Fantasy is going to limit your options to, pretty much, your female equivalent.

Make improvements to what you're offering and your options increase. You're still unlikely to wind up with Natalie Portman in your bed but you're far less likely to be there alone.

Seemingly, he had aspergers, and that will inevitably lead to its own loneliness. It's fascinating to me that he had aspergers but now is being called a narcissist- I'm having trouble reconciling how you could have or be both at the same time.

Santa Barbara is paradise, full of beautiful and wealthy people. He was just one among them, nothing special with his BMW and his wealth etc, just another fish in small pond of high status, good looks, and superficial values.

He is getting scapegoated basically for living out the values of the culture that made him. The mentally ill exaggerate through lack of discernment the values we craft, and then they get scapegoated for it when it all goes awry.

T-K-O

An interesting break down of Elliot Rodgers by Stefan Molyneux

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oybAUKZhaMA

Shakespeare's Sister

Harsh to say it's always someone's own fault if they're lonely. Chronic shyness is an obstacle people cannot easily overcome.

Seriously? wrote: »

Seems like this tragic event is being used as a oppurunity to beat men in general and the mra movement in particular with.

The MRA movement yes, but men in general?

diveout

diveout wrote: »

Seemingly, he had aspergers, and that will inevitably lead to its own loneliness. It's fascinating to me that he had aspergers but now is being called a narcissist- I'm having trouble reconciling how you could have or be both at the same time.

Aspergers and idealist entitlement is an obvious bad mix.

Santa Barbara is paradise, full of beautiful and wealthy people. He was just one among them, nothing special with his BMW and his wealth etc, just another fish in small pond of high status, good looks, and superficial values.

Yup, it's easy there :P

He is getting scapegoated basically for living out the values of the culture that made him. The mentally ill exaggerate through lack of discernment the values we craft, and then they get scapegoated for it when it all goes awry.

He should be shamed for doing what he did. Few years ago someone in Texas shot their Congressperson. That's the whole point of their gun laws. :P

It's easy for most people. For the ones who don't get it easy and do everything "right" and everything goes on as before, it's pretty frustrating.

Seriously?

Magaggie wrote: »

The MRA movement yes, but men in general?

Hashtags such as yesallwomen certainly imply that there's a definite confrontational attitude against men in general.

Thoie

Seriously? wrote: »

Hashtags such as yesallwomen certainly imply that there's a definite confrontational attitude against men in general.

Do you see #yesallwomen as confrontational, rather than just women stating their own experiences? I don't think I've seen any I'd consider as confrontational. Does it make you uncomfortable?

OldRio

Seriously? wrote: »

Hashtags such as yesallwomen certainly imply that there's a definite confrontational attitude against men in general.

Hashtags ? Twitter ? From this you get the opinion that 'theres a definite confrontational attitude against men in general'

Wow, that is some jump.

Meanwhile in the untwitter world men and women get along just fine.

Azwaldo55

Well the #yesallwomen thing going mad on twitter is just the female equivalent of True Forced Loneliness.
The overwhelming majority of men do not leer at women, pinch their bottoms, make disgusting and sexist remarks, beat their girlfriends or wives or rape women.
The True Forced Loneliness men are men who have set their sights to high.
Extremely beautiful women in magazines and movies and so forth tend to marry James Bond type playboys and billionaire geniuses and so forth. They are unobtainable and they will reject men who work in petrol stations, stack shelves in supermarkets, sweep the streets and clean sewers for a living. That's just a given.
But the average women is only too happy to be chatted up by a guy who comes over and smiles warmly and playfully flirts with her.
The harpies on #yesallwomen seem to be focusing on the misfists and freaks and losers and ignoring the majority of men who adore and love women and want to give them their hearts.
They are the kind of women who sigh when they read about some fake romantic lover in a stupid chick lit book and then kick men to the kerb who are simply decent guys. The average guys just laughs off self-absorbed bitches like that and keeps looking until he finds the sweet hearted women who are actually worth bothering with - the overwhelming majority of women to be exact who haven't bought into the man-hating radical feminist nonsense.
Men who put women on a pedestal and women who think all men are rapists are two sides of the same coin.
Poisonous people the world could do without.

Thoie

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The harpies on #yesallwomen seem to be focusing on the misfists and freaks and losers and ignoring the majority of men who adore and love women and want to give them their hearts.
They are the kind of women who sigh when they read about some fake romantic lover in a stupid chick lit book and then kick men to the kerb who are simply decent guys. The average guys just laughs off self-absorbed bitches like that and keeps looking until he finds the sweet hearted women who are actually worth bothering with - the overwhelming majority of women to be exact who haven't bought into the man-hating radical feminist nonsense.
Men who put women on a pedestal and women who think all men are rapists are two sides of the same coin.
Poisonous people the world could do without.

Jesus, you're seriously missing the point of #yesallwomen.
The #notallmen hashtag was initially being used for men to point out that the overwhelmingly vast majority of men are not creepy, weird people who woke up feeling a bit rapey today.
The #yesallwomen hashtag is pointing out that while only a minority of men are sexual harassers/rapists/abusive, pretty much every single woman has had to deal with those who are on a far too regular basis.

While a woman goes about her daily life, there is a constant sub-dialogue of "Is this particular action safe, is this the day I get attacked because I was in a hurry parking in the multi-storey car park, and left my car in that spot instead of this spot? Is this the day I get raped because I needed to go for a pee while waiting for my friends to arrive at the bar, and I left my drink unattended? Is this the day I get followed down the street and shouted at because it's really warm, and I'm too hot in this jacket, and all I'm wearing underneath is a fitted t-shirt?"

You're saying that the women are concentrating on the minority of men. The hashtag isn't about men - it's about what women do/think/feel every day. Your antagonism towards half the population documenting their daily life, and your reference to harpies and bitches are, quite frankly, disgusting.

Azwaldo55

Thoie wrote: »

Jesus, you're seriously missing the point of #yesallwomen.
The #notallmen hashtag was initially being used for men to point out that the overwhelmingly vast majority of men are not creepy, weird people who woke up feeling a bit rapey today.
The #yesallwomen hashtag is pointing out that while only a minority of men are sexual harassers/rapists/abusive, pretty much every single woman has had to deal with those who are on a far too regular basis.

I looked on the twitter thread and it has been taken over by sad pathetic women who hate men ranting on. As if psychopathic men who hate women are going to care less about the comments anyway?

While a woman goes about her daily life, there is a constant sub-dialogue of "Is this particular action safe, is this the day I get attacked because I was in a hurry parking in the multi-storey car park, and left my car in that spot instead of this spot? Is this the day I get raped because I needed to go for a pee while waiting for my friends to arrive at the bar, and I left my drink unattended? Is this the day I get followed down the street and shouted at because it's really warm, and I'm too hot in this jacket, and all I'm wearing underneath is a fitted t-shirt?"

If that is what some women think they need to go to a psychiatrist as badly as Elliot Rodger did. That is pathological thinking.
The majority of women don't think bullsh*t like that.

You're saying that the women are concentrating on the minority of men. The hashtag isn't about men - it's about what women do/think/feel every day. Your antagonism towards half the population documenting their daily life, and your reference to harpies and bitches are, quite frankly, disgusting.

That twitter thread as I have said has been taken over by flakes and losers and crazies who want to vent about how much they hate men.
The female equivalent of Rodger.

The majority of men and women who have no hang ups get on with their lives and leave the insanity to the insane.

diveout

Thoie wrote: »

Jesus, you're seriously missing the point of #yesallwomen.
The #notallmen hashtag was initially being used for men to point out that the overwhelmingly vast majority of men are not creepy, weird people who woke up feeling a bit rapey today.
The #yesallwomen hashtag is pointing out that while only a minority of men are sexual harassers/rapists/abusive, pretty much every single woman has had to deal with those who are on a far too regular basis.

While a woman goes about her daily life, there is a constant sub-dialogue of "Is this particular action safe, is this the day I get attacked because I was in a hurry parking in the multi-storey car park, and left my car in that spot instead of this spot? Is this the day I get raped because I needed to go for a pee while waiting for my friends to arrive at the bar, and I left my drink unattended? Is this the day I get followed down the street and shouted at because it's really warm, and I'm too hot in this jacket, and all I'm wearing underneath is a fitted t-shirt?"

You're saying that the women are concentrating on the minority of men. The hashtag isn't about men - it's about what women do/think/feel every day. Your antagonism towards half the population documenting their daily life, and your reference to harpies and bitches are, quite frankly, disgusting.

I think women need to wise up and look at all the cash to made out of keeping us living in fear and the control to garner by keeping us insecure.

Seriously the left needs to call a halt to the push for keeping everyone on the victim identification track. Chances are the person who abused you at the time was wallowing in self pity and felt like a victim.

Fear makes people act dangerously.

Pawwed Rig

diveout wrote: »

I think women need to wise up and look at all the cash to made out of keeping us living in fear and the control to garner by keeping us insecure.

mod note - quit the generalisations

iptba

Thoie wrote: »

Is this the day I get raped because I needed to go for a pee while waiting for my friends to arrive at the bar, and I left my drink unattended?

Although I'm not an expert, from what I've read in various places, the spiked drink thing isn't something that is a major risk (sample source: Date-rape drink spiking 'an urban legend' http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6440589/Date-rape-drink-spiking-an-urban-legend.html).

---
General points:

It is true that women have things to worry about. However, men also have concerns e.g. men are more likely to be victims of violence on the street so also have to be concerned about their safety.

And I think in many situations, whether it's a car breaking down, or an attack on the street, strangers/passersby will be more likely to help a woman than a man.

Men can worry that they might be falsely accused of a sexual offence, either with an adult or child, that could ruin their lives.

I've seen too many campaigns over the year which only concentrate on women victims, and heard too many times that men have it easy and that the world is a much harder place for women than men. Both genders have things they can be concerned about.

Seriously?

Thoie wrote: »

Do you see #yesallwomen as confrontational

I don't see how it can be seen as anything other than confrontational.
It exists simply to put men back in their box for daring to suggesting that not all men are abusive misogynists.

Wibbs

Thoie wrote: »

While a woman goes about her daily life,

Ahoy matey, generalisation alert.

there is a constant sub-dialogue of "Is this particular action safe, is this the day I get attacked because I was in a hurry parking in the multi-storey car park, and left my car in that spot instead of this spot? Is this the day I get raped because I needed to go for a pee while waiting for my friends to arrive at the bar, and I left my drink unattended? Is this the day I get followed down the street and shouted at because it's really warm, and I'm too hot in this jacket, and all I'm wearing underneath is a fitted t-shirt?"

That's called paranoia. A paranoia not borne out by reality as far as actual risk goes.

Your antagonism towards half the population documenting their daily life, and your reference to harpies and bitches are, quite frankly, disgusting.

Riiight, so these twitter types are representative of half the population? Eh no. Your post is chock full of generalisations.

tsiehta

Yeah, silly paranoid women...

Seriously though, this sort of apparent "paranoia" is extremely prevalent among women I know in person as well as from what I've read online. And I've heard countless stories from women I know (as well as witnessing this on a couple of occasions), not about being raped or violently attacked, but pestered and harassed in mild but uncomfortable ways on a semi-frequent basis.

Are the statistics for the actual risk of being attacked and/or sexual assaulted low? Maybe, but that's not actually important. What's relevant here is the frequency of women being put into situations where they feel uncomfortable and unsafe.

The closest thing I can relate it to myself is the feeling I have in the odd situation where I am harassed by a stranger. I've experienced this a few times - I'm alone walking home at night and a homeless person is being persistent asking me for change and getting in my face, or a weird person starts to talk to me on a bus when I'm trying to mind my own business, or a group of teenagers shouts abuse at me when I walk past them, or one situation where a gay guy groped me in a club. The actual risk of me actually getting attacked or mugged or raped in these situations? Very low, but I felt insecure and unsafe every time.

From listening to what women actually say, they claim to experience these sorts of situations rather often, usually as a result of some form of unwanted male sexual attention. Of course it's not all men. However, there's enough of a minority of men out there who are putting women in these situations and making them feel uncomfortable and unsafe. We should be listening to them and acknowledging that it occurs, not taking it as a slight against all men and questioning the legitimacy of their experiences and feelings.

Wibbs

tsiehta wrote: »

Yeah, silly paranoid women...

In the case of some, yes. There are some silly paranoid men too.

Are the statistics for the actual risk of being attacked and/or sexual assaulted low? Maybe, but that's not actually important.

Eh yea it kinda is. EG men(particularly young men) are far more likely to be robbed, assaulted and killed. Their actual risk while going about their daily business is higher. Are they taking it to twitter? Are they claiming this is the experience of all men, or as was suggested earlier "half the population". Nope.

The kicker is that women are substantially more likely to be sexually and physically assaulted by someone they know than by a random stranger. That's where there is a clear gender bias. Applying some concern on that score makes far more logical sense. That should be more the focus.

What's relevant here is the frequency of women being put into situations where they feel uncomfortable and unsafe.

Again, outside of sexual harassment, men have a higher frequency of this. Individuals deal with it in different ways. Some choose(or learn) to ignore it, some dwell on it and some are very affected by it. However you don't hear claims that "half the population" respond with A, B or C. Men and women are not an homogenous group. I find this particularly ironic when it's stated by some women that women are.

The closest thing I can relate it to myself is the feeling I have in the odd situation where I am harassed by a stranger. I've experienced this a few times - I'm alone walking home at night and a homeless person is being persistent asking me for change and getting in my face, or a weird person starts to talk to me on a bus when I'm trying to mind my own business, or a group of teenagers shouts abuse at me when I walk past them, or one situation where a gay guy groped me in a club.

With the possible exception(though I've heard similar) of the club groping that's a pretty much common enough gender neutral experience of going through life. Like the poor, gobshítes will always be with us and again the risk for me as a bloke of say a group of skangers shouting abuse and it escalating to worse is higher. The risk of being mugged is higher. As for buses, I personally seem to be a bloody magnet for every freak, ghoul and dribbler that gets on. And again, though we may individually freak/get pissed off at the time, I don't see nearly as much projection, generalisation or active interweb groups around the issues.

From listening to what women actually say, they claim to experience these sorts of situations rather often, usually as a result of some form of unwanted male sexual attention. Of course it's not all men.

Indeed and it's not all women either. The majority of women I know and have known while reacting to individual incidences in different ways don't build up some worldview of low level fear with it. The minority are indeed... well paranoid is too strong a word, projecting a fear based worldview maybe? And with the rise of social media etc egging each other on. A number of them actually had good reasons to think like this, however I've often found the ones more like this had actually the fewest bad experiences of all.

tsiehta

I've seen a lot of women I know who I wouldn't have expected to have this "worldview of low level fear", as you put it, liking and sharing articles to do with this sort of thing on facebook. It either resonates with them, or they're buying into an internet driven victimization culture. I generally think higher of them than to assume the latter.

And I think the reason men don't go on twitter or facebook and complain about these sorts of things more is because it just happens less frequently to them. And you can't just leave out sexually motivated incidents here given that they're the main issue.

And every time a topic like this becomes a trending internet discussion, some men will take it as an attack on all men, deny that it's a problem, and write off the women speaking out about it as being "harpies and bitches", or "misandrists", or "paranoid", or come up with any explanation besides the simplest one - that the stated experiences and feelings of these women are, in fact, valid.