The Pro Austerity Crowd

SafeSurfer

The people that cheer lead for austerity. Can they not think of any other way?

The current government were elected with a mandate for change. Remember the "democratic revolution". Well there has been only a change of faces, not policies. There was not even an attempt to try something different despite securing a massive majority, with 68% of available seats.

In the last general election campaign the electorate were lied to, plain and simple, as minister Pat Rabbitte freely admitted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQrhBIuSCmM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHN18Rzhk_c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpr2zaXvb4M

mickydoomsux

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The current government were elected with a mandate for change

And they did change things and continue to try and change them.

The problem is that a lot of people thought that change meant that the economy would be fixed overnight and we could go back to living beyond our means.

KyussBishop

There is never really a discussion of the alternatives - whenever they are brought up, eyes glaze over, policies get dismissed/trolled (usually for the temerity of offending someones ideology), and people get back on with saying "well what are the alternatives? "

By and large, people don't actually care about the topic, at more than a shallow level - and so the debate stays stuck at a very narrow/shallow level too.

donegal__road

any minute now, you are going to be pulled up on that Rabbitte clip..

'the quote was taken out of context!' etc etc

KyussBishop

Also, regarding 'change' from government - their latest change is to stoke a new property bubble:
http://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2014/05/17/are-the-irish-government-nuts-their-housing-policy-is/

RecordStraight

Did the anti-Austerity crowd ever tell us where the magical money tree has been found?

kub

RecordStraight wrote: »

Did the anti-Austerity crowd ever tell us where the magical money tree has been found?

At the end of the rainbow.

mickydoomsux

RecordStraight wrote: »

Did the anti-Austerity crowd ever tell us where the magical money tree has been found?

It sprouts out of the ground from the ashes of Burnt Bondholders.

Bubbaclaus

Everybody notice how a viable alternative to austerity will not be posted in either this thread or the other thread.

RecordStraight

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Everybody notice how a viable alternative to austerity will not be posted in either this thread or the other thread.

No, there will be no viable alternative. Because if there was a viable alternative that didn't require politicians to make cuts, you can be damn sure it would have been adopted.

DEFTLEFTHAND

It's a hard world to get a break in, all the good things have been taken.

Lapin

donegal__road wrote: »

any minute now, you are going to be pulled up on that Rabbitte clip..

'the quote was taken out of context!' etc etc

The beauty is - it wasn't.

He let slip what everybody knows already but in doing so, he lost any credibility he and his party have.

Shower of welchers.

KyussBishop

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Everybody notice how a viable alternative to austerity will not be posted in either this thread or the other thread.

And like I said earlier, despite a viable alternative being posted right on the first page of the other thread, you just get from people "well what are the alternatives? " - staying at the same shallow level in the debate.

Son Of A Vidic

RecordStraight wrote: »

Did the anti-Austerity crowd ever tell us where the magical money tree has been found?

Rumour has it, apparently it was used by Paddy to bail out the German & French banks. Prevent contagion and the collapse of the Euro.

SafeSurfer

mickydoomsux wrote: »

And they did change things and continue to try and change them.

The problem is that a lot of people thought that change meant that the economy would be fixed overnight and we could go back to living beyond our means.

They tinkered with a broken system and continued to implement the policies of the previous administration. Nobody expected the economy to be fixed overnight. People did however expect Labour and Fine Gael to keep even some of their pre election promises. Like upward only rent reviews, the pledge signed by now Labour minister Quinn, the Tescoesque every little hurts Labour poster, which in fact has all come to pass.

RecordStraight

KyussBishop wrote: »

And like I said earlier, despite a viable alternative being posted right on the first page of the other thread, you just get from people "well what are the alternatives? " - staying at the same shallow level in the debate.

For the benefit of this thread, what is your 'viable alternative'? Does it involve time-travel? Leaving the Euro? (this one has the benefit of being viable, albeit massively risky)

darkpagandeath

RecordStraight wrote: »

For the benefit of this thread, what is your 'viable alternative'? Does it involve time-travel? Leaving the Euro? (this one has the benefit of being viable, albeit massively risky)

Probably the IMF choosing the correct option at the time.

Teyla Emmagan

I'm all for austerity. For other people.

RecordStraight

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Probably the IMF choosing the correct option at the time.

Dammit. Kenny promised us a time-machine. I'm sure I have the leaflet somewhere.

Bubbaclaus

KyussBishop wrote: »

And like I said earlier, despite a viable alternative being posted right on the first page of the other thread, you just get from people "well what are the alternatives? " - staying at the same shallow level in the debate.

I just went through every word of the other thread 1st page and saw no viable alternatives.

Unless you consider the sarcastic post "tax the rich" to be a solution to all Ireland's problems?

tayto lover

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I just went through every word of the other thread 1st page and saw no viable alternatives.

Unless you consider the sarcastic post "tax the rich" to be a solution to all Ireland's problems?

Well at present it's tax the elderly, the student, the worker, the home-owner, the carers, the special needs children etc etc. Anything but taxing those who can afford to pay it most.

KyussBishop

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Probably the IMF choosing the correct option at the time.

Can make that two alternatives so I posted about it here, but skip that as I'll try to provide a better explanation - this is only an analogy:
Effectively, the solution would allow government to use special bonds for expanding government spending, which would be like having public debt that carries 0% interest, and which government doesn't have to pay back until they want to (through rolling it over).

I discuss it more in this economics thread, but it's not light reading.

Phoebas

SafeSurfer wrote: »

In the last general election campaign the electorate were lied to, plain and simple, as minister Pat Rabbitte freely admitted.

Nope. He didn't.

RecordStraight

tayto lover wrote: »

Well at present it's tax the elderly, the student, the worker, the home-owner, the carers, the special needs children etc etc. Anything but taxing those who can afford to pay it most.

Widespread cuts to services, but of course most social welfare is untouched. And still borrowing billions to pay for it all. We don't really do austerity very well here, do we?

KyussBishop

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I just went through every word of the other thread 1st page and saw no viable alternatives.

Unless you consider the sarcastic post "tax the rich" to be a solution to all Ireland's problems?

You missed it so - I link it in my above post.

RecordStraight

KyussBishop wrote: »

Can make that two alternatives so I posted about it here, but skip that as I'll try to provide a better explanation - this is only an analogy:
Effectively, the solution would allow government to use special bonds for expanding government spending, which would be like having public debt that carries 0% interest, and which government doesn't have to pay back until they want to (through rolling it over).

Who is going to buy these bonds at 0% coupon?

emo72

And I don't think anybody expected the economy to be fixed overnight.

Still didn't expect the total cop out that FG Labour delivered.

KyussBishop

RecordStraight wrote: »

Who is going to buy these bonds at 0% coupon?

They are not offered for buying, so that is not an impediment - that's discussed in the economics thread (better place to debate it than here).

Teyla Emmagan

I'm all for austerity. For other people.

Bubbaclaus

tayto lover wrote: »

Well at present it's tax the elderly, the student, the worker, the home-owner, the carers, the special needs children etc etc. Anything but taxing those who can afford to pay it most.

We have one of the most progressive tax systems in the world. Making it even more progressive will make the country completely uncompetitive and cause all the tax payers who already hand over 52% of their taxable income to move elsewhere.

If that were to happen we might as well move back into thatched houses growing our own potatoes.

darkpagandeath

RecordStraight wrote: »

Widespread cuts to services, but of course most social welfare is untouched. And still borrowing billions to pay for it all. We don't really do austerity very well here, do we?

Ok then massively reduce social welfare for the "their sitting around crowd" lets see what happens to the economy with massive amounts of money removed. You cut dole you cut spending that leads to shops closing more unemployed but don't let that worry you.

RecordStraight

KyussBishop wrote: »

They are not offered for buying, so that is not an impediment - that's discussed in the economics thread (better place to debate it than here).

If they are not bought by anyone, where does the money come from?

RecordStraight

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ok then massively reduce social welfare for the "their sitting around crowd" lets see what happens to the economy with massive amounts of money removed. You cut dole you cut spending that leads to shops closing more unemployed but don't let that worry you.

Um...did I advocate cutting the dole?

Mind you, I think you are falling prey to the broken window fallacy.

mickydoomsux

tayto lover wrote: »

Well at present it's tax the elderly, the student, the worker, the home-owner, the carers, the special needs children etc etc. Anything but taxing those who can afford to pay it most.

Explain how the "wealthy" are exempt from any taxes they should be paying in this country.

darkpagandeath

RecordStraight wrote: »

Um...did I advocate cutting the dole?

Mind you, I think you are falling prey to the broken window fallacy.

RecordStraight wrote: »

Widespread cuts to services, but of course most social welfare is untouched. And still borrowing billions to pay for it all. We don't really do austerity very well here, do we?

.

KyussBishop

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

We have one of the most progressive tax systems in the world. Making it even more progressive will make the country completely uncompetitive and cause all the tax payers who already hand over 52% of their taxable income to move elsewhere.

If that were to happen we might as well move back into thatched houses growing our own potatoes.

We would do better to focus less on taxing the rich, i.e. downward redistribution of wealth, and instead focus on stopping increasing upward redistribution of wealth. Same problem, harms us in different ways.

The property bubble being stoked now, is likely to cause a new upward redistribution of wealth, so (I think everyone can agree?) should be stopped.

tayto lover

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Explain how the "wealthy" are exempt from any taxes they should be paying in this country.

I didn't say they were exempt.
I said they should be paying more as they can afford to.

darkpagandeath

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Explain how the "wealthy" are exempt from any taxes they should be paying in this country.

Aggressive tax reduction through various schemes Joe soap could not afford to invest in or use.

RecordStraight

darkpagandeath wrote: »

.

In what sense is that advocating cuts? If I state that the moon is orbiting the earth, does that constitute a demand for it to plunge into the Pacific?

KyussBishop

RecordStraight wrote: »

If they are not bought by anyone, where does the money come from?

It's right on the first page of the economics thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057100005

If you want to discuss it, post it there.

RecordStraight

KyussBishop wrote: »

It's right on the first page of the economics thread:

If you want to discuss it, post it there.

I won't, thanks. Basically it seems to amount to spending tomorrow's tax revenue today. What do we spend tomorrow?

In fact, it looks like exactly the same type of securitization/financial engineering that caused the sub-prime disaster.

Bubbaclaus

KyussBishop wrote: »

You missed it so - I link it in my above post.

I did miss it - apologies.

It's an interesting idea that could work. However, as you said, it would likely breach conditions from the EU stability and growth pact.

What I don't get is why the anti-austerity crowd can't be pushing things like this instead of just holding up "NO TO AUSTERITY" posters and shouting profanities at politicians, without ever mentioning a viable alternative.

Why not hold up a banner with "Tax Anticipation Notes - The Way Forward" instead?

KyussBishop

RecordStraight wrote: »

I won't, thanks. Basically it seems to amount to spending tomorrow's tax revenue today. What do we spend tomorrow?

In fact, it looks like exactly the same type of securitization/financial engineering that caused the sub-prime disaster.

It will take pages of this thread to discuss it, so I'm not going to discuss it here - if you post on the other thread, I'll discuss it with you (same for anyone who wants to know more about it).

Bubbaclaus

tayto lover wrote: »

I didn't say they were exempt.
I said they should be paying more as they can afford to.

They already do pay more. Potentially 52% of their income is taken off them in fact.

RecordStraight

KyussBishop wrote: »

It will take pages of this thread to discuss it, so I'm not going to discuss it here - if you post on the other thread, I'll discuss it with you (same for anyone who wants to know more about it).

But this is a thread about austerity, right? I'm not sure why it makes more sense to post in that thread if you have to make the same arguments anyway.

I am struck by your confidence that increasing spending is absolutely the right solution. I've studied Keynesian and Hayekian approaches to public spending, and large parts of both arguments are very persuasive, while others are clearly weak.

Yet you appear to have absolutely no doubt that increased spending, increased government debt, is the definite solution to the current crisis. How have you arrived at this view, do you mind me asking?

mickydoomsux

tayto lover wrote: »

I didn't say they were exempt.
I said they should be paying more as they can afford to.

They pay most of the tax take in this country and are more likely to use less of the facilities that are paid for by the tax they pay.

Plus they are more likely than Joe Soap to be employers.

darkpagandeath

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I did miss it - apologies.

It's an interesting idea that could work. However, as you said, it would likely breach conditions from the EU stability and growth pact.

What I don't get is why the anti-austerity crowd can't be pushing things like this instead of just holding up "NO TO AUSTERITY" posters and shouting profanities at politicians, without ever mentioning a viable alternative.

Why not hold up a banner with "Tax Anticipation Notes - The Way Forward" instead?

Would the Politicians understand that ? Did they not just do what the last government agreed to point by point.

steddyeddy

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Everybody notice how a viable alternative to austerity will not be posted in either this thread or the other thread.

Define austerity? Does it have to be a specific group of cuts or can anything be done to bring down the deficit?

KyussBishop

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I did miss it - apologies.

It's an interesting idea that could work. However, as you said, it would likely breach conditions from the EU stability and growth pact.

What I don't get is why the anti-austerity crowd can't be pushing things like this instead of just holding up "NO TO AUSTERITY" posters and shouting profanities at politicians, without ever mentioning a viable alternative.

Why not hold up a banner with "Tax Anticipation Notes - The Way Forward" instead?

Yes, I don't think we could avoid breaching EU treaty conditions, but I think Germany has already breached them, so we may get away with it.

There are actually a very wide number of alternative policies available, that I've learned over time, but yes - there is very very little interest in learning about them, even among economists, and basically none among the public - so it's hard to be politically active on them.

RecordStraight

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Would the Politicians understand that ? Did they not just do what the last government agreed to point by point.

Did they do what the last government agreed to do with the Troika as conditions of the bailout that saw us lent tens of billions of Euros to continue paying for pensions, social welfare and public services?

Yes, they did. I guess they couldn't think of anyone else who would lend a bankrupt country tens of billions at short notice.

tayto lover

mickydoomsux wrote: »

They pay most of the tax take in this country and are more likely to use less of the facilities that are paid for by the tax they pay.

Plus they are more likely than Joe Soap to be employers.

So?