Season 4 Episode 5 "First of His Name": *HAVEN'T* Read The Books

OneOfThem Stumbled

Not sure that it makes complete sense LittleFinger being behind Aryn's death. Two things: what did he stand to gain, and why wouldn't the Lannisters move to absolve themselves of guilt? Littlefinger could have guessed that the murder would bring the Starks and Lannisters into conflict, and chaos could benefit him - but it would also put Cat in serious danger (and it did! She almost died at the hands of a Lannister assassin and finally bit the dust at the Red Wedding). Seeing that she's the only person he's truly cared for (apparently) it would seem odd to put her in such jeopardy.

And the Lannisters would know that Ned would know that John was murdered. Notwithstanding the letter - it was fairly obvious that the Hand had been poisoned... and we all know how Ned was about justice. Seeing that Cersei would know that her house wasn't responsible why wouldn't they try and make that clear? Having Eddard poking his nose into the issue was liable to make him find out about more dangerous secrets.

Mickeroo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Can somebody remind me where those precocious little twits came from anyway? I was under the impression they were pretty handy in a scrap at the start, but now they're just helpless babe in the woods material.
Are there no bears or something Bran can wargasm his way into the brain of and smash enemies to bits?

They're the children of Howland Reed, an old friend of Neds and banner man to the Starks.

wp_rathead

AFAIR no one suspected Aryan was poisoned until the letter was sent - and did the Lanisters ever know about the letter? Thought they only got backs up when Ned went snooping around Fleabottom and looking at family genetics/line and found out Geoffry wasnt Roberts? Ill have to rewatch some season 1 as some bits quite sketchy..

Nerdlingr

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Not sure that it makes complete sense LittleFinger being behind Aryn's death. Two things: what did he stand to gain, and why wouldn't the Lannisters move to absolve themselves of guilt? Littlefinger could have guessed that the murder would bring the Starks and Lannisters into conflict, and chaos could benefit him - but it would also put Cat in serious danger (and it did! She almost died at the hands of a Lannister assassin and finally bit the dust at the Red Wedding). Seeing that she's the only person he's truly cared for (apparently) it would seem odd to put her in such jeopardy.

And the Lannisters would know that Ned would know that John was murdered. Notwithstanding the letter - it was fairly obvious that the Hand had been poisoned... and we all know how Ned was about justice. Seeing that Cersei would know that her house wasn't responsible why wouldn't they try and make that clear? Having Eddard poking his nose into the issue was liable to make him find out about more dangerous secrets.

Thats the thing nobody really knew what happend to John Arryn. Varys hints to Ned about him being poisoned but no-one can say for sure. The Lannisters are oblivious to it and dont question it beacuse it works to their advantage, they dont need to disprove anything in public because Ned has got nothing on them. Kill King Robert put Joffrey on the throne and anything that Ned comes out with will then be regarded as treason. Win win for the Lannisters.

Nerdlingr

wprathead wrote: »

AFAIR no one suspected Aryan was poisoned until the letter was sent - and did the Lanisters ever know about the letter? Thought they only got backs up when Ned went snooping around Fleabottom and looking at family genetics/line and found out Geoffry wasnt Roberts? Ill have to rewatch some season 1 as some bits quite sketchy..

Cat burnt the letter as soon as she received it in case it got into Lannister hands and Lysa would be done for treason.

Grimebox

Mickeroo wrote: »

They're the children of Howland Reed, an old friend of Neds and banner man to the Starks.

I'm aware of this, but who are they in grand scheme of things? It's tiring that all their motivations lie in cryptic visions.

bren2001

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Not sure that it makes complete sense LittleFinger being behind Aryn's death. Two things: what did he stand to gain, and why wouldn't the Lannisters move to absolve themselves of guilt? Littlefinger could have guessed that the murder would bring the Starks and Lannisters into conflict, and chaos could benefit him - but it would also put Cat in serious danger (and it did! She almost died at the hands of a Lannister assassin and finally bit the dust at the Red Wedding). Seeing that she's the only person he's truly cared for (apparently) it would seem odd to put her in such jeopardy.

And the Lannisters would know that Ned would know that John was murdered. Notwithstanding the letter - it was fairly obvious that the Hand had been poisoned... and we all know how Ned was about justice. Seeing that Cersei would know that her house wasn't responsible why wouldn't they try and make that clear? Having Eddard poking his nose into the issue was liable to make him find out about more dangerous secrets.

He had everything to gain. He wants more than just being master of coin. The realm was in a relatively settled period and for him to advance, he needed war or more importantly chaos to ensue. He knew Jon Arryn would start the wheels in motion. His chaos speech last season sums it up how he operates.

The only person Littlefinger loves is himself. While he clearly cared for Catelyn, his own ambition to succeed is a bigger driving factor. I didn't see this coming at all and felt it was very poorly down. It seemed forced and they glazed over it very quickly.

I'm only on the second book but looking forward to some Brienne and Pod chapters along with Sansa in the Eyrie.....cannot wait....

evil_seed

bren2001 wrote: »

He had everything to gain. He wants more than just being master of coin. The realm was in a relatively settled period and for him to advance, he needed war or more importantly chaos to ensue. He knew Jon Arryn would start the wheels in motion. His chaos speech last season sums it up how he operates.

The only person Littlefinger loves is himself. While he clearly cared for Catelyn, his own ambition to succeed is a bigger driving factor. I didn't see this coming at all and felt it was very poorly down. It seemed forced and they glazed over it very quickly.

I'm only on the second book but looking forward to some Brienne and Pod chapters along with Sansa in the Eyrie.....cannot wait....

And also...

duploelabs

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Not sure that it makes complete sense LittleFinger being behind Aryn's death. Two things: what did he stand to gain, and why wouldn't the Lannisters move to absolve themselves of guilt? Littlefinger could have guessed that the murder would bring the Starks and Lannisters into conflict, and chaos could benefit him - but it would also put Cat in serious danger (and it did! She almost died at the hands of a Lannister assassin and finally bit the dust at the Red Wedding). Seeing that she's the only person he's truly cared for (apparently) it would seem odd to put her in such jeopardy.

And the Lannisters would know that Ned would know that John was murdered. Notwithstanding the letter - it was fairly obvious that the Hand had been poisoned... and we all know how Ned was about justice. Seeing that Cersei would know that her house wasn't responsible why wouldn't they try and make that clear? Having Eddard poking his nose into the issue was liable to make him find out about more dangerous secrets.

If you can go back to episode 7 (i think) of season one where Littlefinger has his monologue whilst instructing Ros and the other prostitute on their ways, his admission to Jon Arron's death makes it far more understanding

Da Shins Kelly

Yeah, Littlefinger wants power more than anything. He cares more about that than he does about Catelyn. He also has Sansa now, who reminds me of Catelyn, and I can only assume he's going to creep on her at some point. Even Lysa can see it.

bren2001

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Yeah, Littlefinger wants power more than anything. He cares more about that than he does about Catelyn. He also has Sansa now, who reminds me of Catelyn, and I can only assume he's going to creep on her at some point. Even Lysa can see it.

He has Sansa because he believes she is the key to the North. Only Emmet Bolton, Jon and Sam knows Bran and Rickon are alive. However, I do think he feels he owes some debt to Catelyn but risked everything he had built to get Sansa out of Kings Landing for this reason. I imagine this is one of the reasons Lysa asked had they consummated the marriage, if they had, Tyrion would be Warden of the North as it stands.

2ndcoming

bren2001 wrote: »

He has Sansa because he believes she is the key to the North. Only Emmet Bolton, Jon and Sam knows Bran and Rickon are alive. However, I do think he feels he owes some debt to Catelyn but risked everything he had built to get Sansa out of Kings Landing for this reason. I imagine this is one of the reasons Lysa asked had they consummated the marriage, if they had, Tyrion would be Warden of the North as it stands.

Emmet Bolton, some man for one man. Flat out training with the Lilles and plotting to seal the North of Westeros for himself at the same time.

MadYaker

2ndcoming wrote: »

Emmet Bolton, some man for one man. Flat out training with the Lilles and plotting to seal the North of Westeros for himself at the same time.

I don't get it. Who are the Lillies??

Duckworth_Luas

MadYaker wrote: »

I don't get it. Who are the Lillies??

The thing about the Lillies is they always try to White Walk it in!

ConstantJoe

MadYaker wrote: »

I don't get it. Who are the Lillies??

Kildare :pac:

It's Roose Bolton who's head of House Bolton.

2ndcoming

Only remembered another twist to Littlefinger's revelation in this episode.

It was Littlefinger who owned the dagger that the assassin who tried to kill Bran had on him at Winterfell after he woke up in season 1. He told Ned he'd lost it to Tyrion gambling and when Cat heard this it led to Tyrion being brought to the Eyrie for trial, stoking the tensions between the Starks and the Lannisters in the first place, along with the letter he had Lysa send Cat.

So it was pretty clear starting the war was his intention all along.

Bart Mars

Who owns the Ironbank? The Ironborn?

Sulla Felix

Bart Mars wrote: »

Who owns the Ironbank? The Ironborn?

Nope, Braavosi own it. They kind of sound like medieval era Venetians or Milanese.

Bart Mars

And what the hell happened to that lad in yhe box the baldy chaped with no balls had delivered to him last season !

wp_rathead

Wasn't the guy who helped Ayra escape the castle in Season 2 from Braavos? He gave a coin or something she could use? I'v feeling that going to come into use this season the way so much talk about Ironbank

DM addict

He was indeed - he was the Braavosi swordmaster, who Ned hired to teach her how to use her sword, Needle. I believe his name was Syrio, he got mentioned when Arya was practising her fighting and the Hound teased her.

TimeToShine

DM addict wrote: »

He was indeed - he was the Braavosi swordmaster, who Ned hired to teach her how to use her sword, Needle. I believe his name was Syrio, he got mentioned when Arya was practising her fighting and the Hound teased her.

I think he's talking about Jaqen who is also a Braavosi.

marco_polo

Reading the last few pages make me think I should start again from the beginning , the amount of important little details I have completely forgotten about is unbelievable

Anachrony

TimeToShine wrote: »

I think he's talking about Jaqen who is also a Braavosi.

Which, given that he's a face changer, is still not entirely impossible. But it's quite far from an established fact. We saw the guy who was fighting him was still alive later, so Syrio didn't win that fight.

Paddy Cow

marco_polo wrote: »

Reading the last few pages make me think I should start again from the beginning , the amount of important little details I have completely forgotten about is unbelievable

I binge watched all three seasons before this one aired and it really helped to freshen things in my mind. I would've missed a lot of details if I hadn't.

duploelabs

Bart Mars wrote: »

Who owns the Ironbank? The Ironborn?

The Braavosi, the ironborn are from the iron islands and are governed by the greyjoys

bren2001

duploelabs wrote: »

The Braavosi, the ironborn are from the iron islands and are governed by the greyjoys

Not correct. The Bravosi are from Bravos, the greatest of the free cities. They are across the narrow sea. The Targaryens couldn't conquer it.

The ironborn are from the iron islands and the Greyjoys are the commanders of their army but are ruled by Kings Landing. The Ironbank is the name of the bank in Bravos and has nothing to do with the Greyjoys.

duploelabs

bren2001 wrote: »

Not correct. The Bravosi are from Bravos, the greatest of the free cities. They are across the narrow sea. The Targaryens couldn't conquer it.

The ironborn are from the iron islands and the Greyjoys are the commanders of their army but are ruled by Kings Landing. The Ironbank is the name of the bank in Bravos and has nothing to do with the Greyjoys.

sorry bad punctuation. I meant the Braavosi own the iron bank. The iron islands are not ruled by kings landing and are in open revolt

K_user

Very good episode, almost at Red Wedding levels of shock, but I doubt it will be as remembered.

So Littlefinger is the one. He started it all. The only question is whether he was the man with the plan, or if he's a co-conspirator. Of course its obvious that his new marriage is just a stopping point, and we are left wondering what other pies he has left waiting in the wings?

Really enjoyed Cersei and Margaery going head to head in a polite way. Cersei really seems to be stepping up a notch, or has she just resigned?

Tywin rules. It just has to be said. :P

Danys part is progressing well. We know she can survive, we know she can conquer, but can she control? The problems of Slavers bay are far less complex then the intrigue of Kings Landing. So she has a lot to learn.

Jon...after 4 seasons of moping about, he finally had an action scene. And was nearly killed. If it weren't for the girl stabbing his opponent in the back, he was a dead man. Which was followed by the over kill of a sword through the head/face.

Last but not least, poor Sansa...again...

2ndcoming

K_user wrote: »

Jon...after 4 seasons of moping about, he finally had an action scene. And was nearly killed. If it weren't for the girl stabbing his opponent in the back, he was a dead man. Which was followed by the over kill of a sword through the head/face.

Worth remembering he's only supposed to be 17 or 18 at this stage of the series, with little or no battle experience, and that Karl character was billed as the best paid killer in Fleabottom, so he didn't do too badly in fairness.