Undertaking in bus lanes.

K.Flyer

micraX wrote: »

That's nice, but that's the n32 your talking about. I'm talking about the r132 formally know as the n1 which has a bus lane from the pavilions roundabout to santry.

Standing here corrected
After posting I re-read your post, quickly checked the map and saw my mistake.
But you beat me to it before I could sheepishly delete my post.

vickers209

If your using the bus lane after hours and you come to a bus traffic light which allows a bus to move off before rest off traffic can a car go while in the bus lane

Theres one at stillorgan park hotel on n11 heading southbound

corktina

vickers209 wrote: »

If your using the bus lane after hours and you come to a bus traffic light which allows a bus to move off before rest off traffic can a car go while in the bus lane

Theres one at stillorgan park hotel on n11 heading southbound

well the answer is that this does not happen.....at least not in a well organised country that has a simple chip to control the lights so that the "bus" lights don't work outside bus lane hours. In this country? well, as we know, "sure it'll do".

whomitconcerns

Friday morning in traffic at artane. Long queue and I see a cop beside the buslane. Guy comes speeding up buslane from behind and spots the cop late and merges in front of me at about 60kph, we were only moving around 40 so I had to lock on. Beeped him out of it he gave me the finger.... Cop had seen him and pulled him out of the lane and to side. Karma

Sir Chops

CiniO wrote: »

Generally bus lanes are no different to anything else, so undertaking on them is illegal - and that includes buses. (there is no exception in law for buses).

Obviously undertaking in slow moving traffic is legal.
But when cars on other lanes do 40km/h and bus is undertaking them on bus lane at 50km/h that's definitely illegal.

That is a common perception but one that is completely incorrect

CiniO

Sir Chops wrote: »

That is a common perception but one that is completely incorrect

Why is that incorrect?

K.Flyer

If it is incorrect, then there are hundreds of traffic offences being made everyday by Dublin Bus drivers.
Somehow I cannot see if there was blatant disregard for the kaw by bus dtivers that it would continue unchecked.

markpb

CiniO wrote: »

Why is that incorrect?

Because what you're suggesting is contrary to the spirit of the law. The *only* intention of bus lanes is to give PSVs priority over low occupancy/ private vehicles. If undertaking in an in-operation bus lane was illegal, the law would be redundant. Since no-one would create a bus priority measure which traps buses at the lower speed of the normal lanes, ergo the law must mean that undertaking is legal.

No it's not spelled out in the law but that's because we don't (always) have to be prescriptive in the drafting of our laws, especially not laws that can only be enforced by an arm of the state. The Gardai understand the spirit and intention of the law, they understand that undertaking is not meant to be illegal and therefore don't prosecute bus drivers for it. No one else can prosecute for breach of the road traffic acts so it doesn't matter if you or anyone else disagree with their interpretation of it.

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

after operational hours when bus lanes become open to the public everyone should be using them.

I did this for a while and found it too awkward. How do you treat bus-only traffic lights or road markings that say left turn except buses? Most importantly, by being in the bus lane when no one else was, I didn't trust drivers on my right to expect me to continue straight at junctions that have the aforementioned left turn except buses signs.

corktina

you mean "turn left, except buses I guess"?

CiniO

markpb wrote: »

Because what you're suggesting is contrary to the spirit of the law. The *only* intention of bus lanes is to give PSVs priority over low occupancy/ private vehicles. If undertaking in an in-operation bus lane was illegal, the law would be redundant. Since no-one would create a bus priority measure which traps buses at the lower speed of the normal lanes, ergo the law must mean that undertaking is legal.

No it's not spelled out in the law but that's because we don't (always) have to be prescriptive in the drafting of our laws, especially not laws that can only be enforced by an arm of the state. The Gardai understand the spirit and intention of the law, they understand that undertaking is not meant to be illegal and therefore don't prosecute bus drivers for it. No one else can prosecute for breach of the road traffic acts so it doesn't matter if you or anyone else disagree with their interpretation of it.

Yeah, sure...
There is clear law prohibiting undertaking, but you say that it means nothing, because it doesn't make sense.

Sorry, but it doesn't make sense to me what you are saying.

markpb

CiniO wrote: »

Yeah, sure...
There is clear law prohibiting undertaking, but you say that it means nothing, because it doesn't make sense.

Sorry, but it doesn't make sense to me what you are saying.

Do you agree that a law that creates bus lanes to give vehicles legally in it priority but doesn't allow them to move faster than other vehicles would be nonsensical?

Do you agree that the Gardai do not prosecute bus or taxi drivers (or even cyclists) who move faster in the bus lane than other traffic?

No one is going to be able to give you the answer you're looking for. Perhaps the law is poorly drafted but the only people who it's relevant to understand it so no one else really matters. You could contact the DoT or RSA to get clarification if you'd like?

CiniO

markpb wrote: »

Do you agree that a law that creates bus lanes to give vehicles legally in it priority but doesn't allow them to move faster than other vehicles would be nonsensical?

Generally yes.
But current law allows them to move faster if traffic is moving slowly.
So when cars are stock in traffic jam moving at 5km/h, bus can go faster undertaking them legally.
What he can't do legally, is doing 50km/h when cars do 40km/h.

Do you agree that the Gardai do not prosecute bus or taxi drivers (or even cyclists) who move faster in the bus lane than other traffic?

Yes, I agree - they don't.

No one is going to be able to give you the answer you're looking for. Perhaps the law is poorly drafted but the only people who it's relevant to understand it so no one else really matters.

It doesn't matter until there is going to be accident, where someone will pursue the case, that cause or part of cause for accident was bus undertaking illegally.

You could contact the DoT or RSA to get clarification if you'd like?

I contacted RSA in the past to clarify few things, and they seem to be useless.
They don't even bother to look at the law.
According to them(RSA), buses can't use most-right lanes of motorways. Funny, as there is no law prohibiting it.

highdef

A lot of the time if I am heading into work in Dublin, I will leave the N4/R148 just after the Palmerstown traffic lights and enter the Lucan Road towards Chapelizod. If you know this road, there is a bus lane that is open to the public after 10am. What regularly happens (when it is after 10am of course) is that I will drive in the left lane (previously a bus lane) at 50 kmh, the speed limit. There are also ramps on this road.
Now, in my car I can travel over these ramps at the 50kmh limit no problem as the ramps are not too rough. What invariably happens is that a car slightly ahead of me in the right lane doing the same speed will hit the brakes as he/she arrives at one of the ramps and slow right down, sometimes right down to around 20kmh or so.
The reason why I can keep going at 50kmh is because everyone drives exclusively in the right lane for 3 main reasons:

1) They are making the right turn onto Kylemore Road a few hundred metres ahead
2) They are not paying attention and reading the signs.
3) They are the same as the vast majority of Irish drivers and have a fear and aversion of bus lanes that are open to the public.

Am I expected to follow the other drivers speed and hit the brakes so that I do not pass him on the left? I don't see why I should delay my journey because a fellow motorist wants to slow to a crawl over these pleasant ramps. Can I classify the drivers passing over the ramps as driving at a slow speed and therefore make my driving legal?

I do not use this lane as an excuse to skip traffic. I ALWAYS read the bus lane signs and will use it if the sign dictates to do so. I also NEVER use a bus lane when it not permitted, I won't even slip into one a few metres ahead if I am turning left. I treat that white line as wall.

CiniO

highdef wrote: »

A lot of the time if I am heading into work in Dublin, I will leave the N4/R148 just after the Palmerstown traffic lights and enter the Lucan Road towards Chapelizod. If you know this road, there is a bus lane that is open to the public after 10am. What regularly happens (when it is after 10am of course) is that I will drive in the left lane (previously a bus lane) at 50 kmh, the speed limit. There are also ramps on this road.
Now, in my car I can travel over these ramps at the 50kmh limit no problem as the ramps are not too rough. What invariably happens is that a car slightly ahead of me in the right lane doing the same speed will hit the brakes as he/she arrives at one of the ramps and slow right down, sometimes right down to around 20kmh or so.
The reason why I can keep going at 50kmh is because everyone drives exclusively in the right lane for 3 main reasons:

1) They are making the right turn onto Kylemore Road a few hundred metres ahead
2) They are not paying attention and reading the signs.
3) They are the same as the vast majority of Irish drivers and have a fear and aversion of bus lanes that are open to the public.

Am I expected to follow the other drivers speed and hit the brakes so that I do not pass him on the left? I don't see why I should delay my journey because a fellow motorist wants to slow to a crawl over these pleasant ramps. Can I classify the drivers passing over the ramps as driving at a slow speed and therefore make my driving legal?

I do not use this lane as an excuse to skip traffic. I ALWAYS read the bus lane signs and will use it if the sign dictates to do so. I also NEVER use a bus lane when it not permitted, I won't even slip into one a few metres ahead if I am turning left. I treat that white line as wall.

Assuming someone slows down to low speed on the ramp, I'd say you are probably OK to undertake in such circumstances, as this could be classified as traffic moving slowly. But I'm only guessing.


Anyway - what I wonder - if most Irish motorists don't even know it's illegal to undertake.
From those who do know, majority think that undertaking takes place only when you follow someone and change lane to left, to undertake and then return right; and once you follow left lane just travelling faster than someone on right lane, this is not undertaking.
And even that tiny leftover of drivers who actually really understand the law in relation to undertaking, don't bother obeying it, then what's the point in having it at all?

Why Ireland can not change a law and allow for undertaking in all cases if everyone wants it?

K.Flyer

CiniO wrote: »

....
Anyway - what I wonder - if most Irish motorists don't even know it's illegal to undertake.
From those who do know, majority think that undertaking takes place only when you follow someone and change lane to left, to undertake and then return right; and once you follow left lane just travelling faster than someone on right lane, this is not undertaking.
And even that tiny leftover of drivers who actually really understand the law in relation to undertaking, don't bother obeying it, then what's the point in having it at all?

What you have to remember is where this Law against undertaking originated from in Ireland.
It came about long before we had dual carriageways, nevermind motorways or even bus lanes. Couple this with poor driving standards, drink driving was almost a norm and the fact that back then most cars did Not even have left side mirrors!!
Impatient drivers would Often cut up the tight inside gap, sometimes mounting footpaths or use the hard shoulder to get past a slower driver if there was no room to overtake in the normal manner.
If you extrapolate this scenario to modern day driving, (IMO), it translates into the deliberate change to a left lane to pass a slower vehicle and then rejoin your original lane (at any speed).
Whereas to continue in your lane, (even if its lane 1), regardless of speed but within the legal limit, whilst passing slower moving cars in outer lanes does not construe undertaking in the strictest sense of the law if you look at where the law originated from.
Also it is the driver of the car who wishes to change lanes, be it on a motorway or to move into a bus lane, to have a duty of care to the users of that lane and to excercise caution when carrying out such a manoeuvre as the vehicles in the lane which the driver intends to join (irrespective of their speed) have right of way.

CiniO

K.Flyer wrote: »

What you have to remember is where this Law against undertaking originated from in Ireland.
It came about long before we had dual carriageways, nevermind motorways or even bus lanes. Couple this with poor driving standards, drink driving was almost a norm and the fact that back then most cars did Not even have left side mirrors!!
Impatient drivers would Often cut up the tight inside gap, sometimes mounting footpaths or use the hard shoulder to get past a slower driver if there was no room to overtake in the normal manner.
If you extrapolate this scenario to modern day driving, (IMO), it translates into the deliberate change to a left lane to pass a slower vehicle and then rejoin your original lane (at any speed).
Whereas to continue in your lane, (even if its lane 1), regardless of speed but within the legal limit, whilst passing slower moving cars in outer lanes does not construe undertaking in the strictest sense of the law if you look at where the law originated from.

Yes, you are the best example of driver I described above.
Nothing unusual, as most drivers here have no clue about this "no undertaking" law.

Muahahaha

I spend most of my commute undertaking by some of the definitions above. Though that's because I'm on a motorbike and use the bus lanes at any time of day. On my 6 mile commute I'd probably pass about 100-150 cars stuck in traffic and moving fairly slow so it's a lot safer for me to do that in the bus lane than around the outside of them. I wouldn't be pelting it up the bus lane as undertaking stopped traffic is when you're most likely to get a jay walker walk across the bus lane with barely looking.

I think the answer to the question is quite vague. I've often had taxis up my hole in the bus lane when we are undertaking stopped or slow moving traffic. If me taking it handy wasn't slowing them down then they would be doing the limit of 60kph while undertaking largely stationery traffic. I've seen plenty of taxis belt it down a bus lane doing 60kph when the lane beside them is doing 40kph but I don't think a Garda would classify that as undertaking as the bus lane is where they're allowed to be. However if they were caught driving at the limit of 60kph up a bus lane while the traffic next to them is stopped then a Garda wouldn't need to try to do them for undertaking, he could instead just charge them with 'not driving with due care' which is a kind of all encompassing term that can be applied to lots of situations. And in fairness doing even 50kph next to stopped traffic can be asking for trouble, pedestrians often pop out from between cars or worse again vans and SUVs so you really can't be going any quicker than what it would take you to slam the brakes and come to a complete halt within 15-20 meters away. If a taxi were using the bus lane at excessive speeds for the traffic conditions around them (even within the speed limit ) then a Garda could easily make that case to a judge and the person could get done for driving dangerously or driving without due care and attention without any need for mention of undertaking at all.

K.Flyer

CiniO wrote: »

Yes, you are the best example of driver I described above.
Nothing unusual, as most drivers here have no clue about this "no undertaking" law.

Well seeing as I have been driving on Irish and European roads with a full clean driving licence for over 32 years and I have never been pulled by the Garda for my manner of driving or ever received a fine for it, I imagine my interpretation of the RotR and how to apply them must be just fine.

mackerski

650Ginge wrote: »

My understanding is that you can pass on the left if the traffic in the left lane is moving faster than the traffic in the right lane.

The grey is the drivers who come up in the left lane move right to overtake and then move left out of the empty right lane to continue.

Back to driving school with you.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

Generally yes.
But current law allows them to move faster if traffic is moving slowly.
So when cars are stock in traffic jam moving at 5km/h, bus can go faster undertaking them legally.
What he can't do legally, is doing 50km/h when cars do 40km/h.

You sure about that? Im pretty sure that buses can go any speed they want (within the limits obviously) irrespective of what the cars in the driving lanes are doing. While bus lanes are operational they are not part of the main driving carraigeway (ie private cars are not allowed to use them), so I have no idea why normal rules of undertaking would apply? If anything, a bus lane would follow the same rules as a slip road (seperate carraigeway on which its perfectly legal to pass cars that are on your right).

whomitconcerns

its not very clear in irish law. But from a LOt of reading it seems to be a seperate carrigeway during bus-hours and an unenforced "ignore if you want" left lane out of hours....seriously it couldnt be more ambigous if they tried.

ie Can you use (non 24 hr lanes) on Bank holidays?
ie Can you "undertake" in the bus lane?
ie Do you have to use them when not in operation? ie when they are the leftmost lane?
ie Does using your left indicator to pass by all the queueing traffic the whole way along the malahide road actually make you invisible to the guardai?

They are just some of the biggest issues..and are completely ambigous in Irish law...so interpret as you like!

Skittlebrau

K.Flyer wrote: »

...
If you extrapolate this scenario to modern day driving, (IMO), it translates into the deliberate change to a left lane to pass a slower vehicle and then rejoin your original lane (at any speed).

Whereas to continue in your lane, (even if its lane 1), regardless of speed but within the legal limit, whilst passing slower moving cars in outer lanes does not construe undertaking in the strictest sense of the law if you look at where the law originated from.

Also it is the driver of the car who wishes to change lanes, be it on a motorway or to move into a bus lane, to have a duty of care to the users of that lane and to excercise caution when carrying out such a manoeuvre as the vehicles in the lane which the driver intends to join (irrespective of their speed) have right of way.

FWIW a driver tester I know tells me that this is the correct way to drive. He drew a distinction between over/under taking i.e. moving from one lane into another and then rejoining the original lane and merely 'passing' on the left if you're just driving in another lane. He says that's not overtaking on the left.

Makes sense to me... and would resolve the perceived illegality of buses using bus lanes if it were true.

Although what a court might interpret the legislation to mean might be something else entirely.

djimi

Skittlebrau wrote: »

FWIW a driver tester I know tells me that this is the correct way to drive. He drew a distinction between over/under taking i.e. moving from one lane into another and then rejoining the original lane and merely 'passing' on the left if you're just driving in another lane. He says that's not overtaking on the left.

Makes sense to me... and would resolve the perceived illegality of buses using bus lanes if it were true.

Although what a court might interpret the legislation to mean might be something else entirely.

He is absolutely wrong. It is illegal to pass another car on the left (except under certain very specific circumstances); how you got to be on the left and what you do after you make the pass is irrelevant.

Skittlebrau

djimi wrote: »

He is absolutely wrong. It is illegal to pass another car on the left (except under certain very specific circumstances); how you got to be on the left and what you do after you make the pass is irrelevant.

Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing you but what are you basing this on?

There's far too much opinion and very few facts when it comes to most posts on this issue.

whomitconcerns

Skittlebrau wrote: »

Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing you but what are you basing this on?

There's far too much opinion and very few facts when it comes to most posts on this issue.

based on road traffic act 1964 imagine...

4) Notwithstanding paragraph (3) of this bye-law, a driver may overtake on the left—

(a) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled his intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,

(b) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to turn left at a road junction and has signalled this intention,

(c) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

Skittlebrau

whomitconcerns wrote: »

based on road traffic act 1964 imagine...

4) Notwithstanding paragraph (3) of this bye-law, a driver may overtake on the left—

(a) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled his intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,

(b) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to turn left at a road junction and has signalled this intention,

(c) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

Thanks.. I probably should have been more clear. So it comes back to the definition of slow moving traffic which is undefined in the legislation and which different people have different opinions on as to what it constitutes.

It's clearly a grey area given the widely different views people have on it.. an no matter how strong anyones view is, until a court decides (or the legislature decide to clarify) exactly what constitutes slow moving traffic, there'll always be scope for differing views.

whomitconcerns

ah yes..this is something we seem to be constantly discussing...generally speaking slow moving traffic is less than 30kph i would think...but as you say...each to their own sadly...

djimi

Slow moving traffic is slow moving traffic; Im pretty sure anyone who drives a car knows what this means and I doubt many judges would believe otherwise! I have been on a dual carraigeway with three solid lanes of cars all doing 60km/h that I would still consider to be slow moving traffic for the purpose of overtaking, as if the left hand lane is doing 5km/h faster than the right hand lane, no Garda is going to prosecute for overtaking on the left in this instance, and its just a one solid line of traffic moving slightly faster than another solid line of traffic.

The way that it is written in the traffic act is ambiguous, but it also leaves it up to common sense to interpret.

Skittlebrau

whomitconcerns wrote: »

ah yes..this is something we seem to be constantly discussing...generally speaking slow moving traffic is less than 30kph i would think...but as you say...each to their own sadly...

Exactly.. I would agree 30kph is slow in a 50kph zone. I also think 80kph is slow (and more dangerous) in a 100 or 120 kph zone.

But the problem is... that's just my opinion.

Muahahaha

whomitconcerns wrote: »

ah yes..this is something we seem to be constantly discussing...generally speaking slow moving traffic is less than 30kph i would think...but as you say...each to their own sadly...

I think what it comes down to is the perception of dangerous driving in the circumstances where it occurs. The law is likely deliberately grey because it would be almost impossible to legislate for every single possibility, the law states what it states and then judges interpret it in light of the individual circumstances as told to them by the prosecuting Garda.

It's easy to think of situations where a bus or taxi undertaking a line of slow moving traffic at speed can in some locations be perfectly safe and then in other locations (such as outside a school) the same type of driving can be classed as dangerous. The speed limits remain constant but the driving conditions and environment you are driving in are constantly changing.

You'll also tend to find that if a Guard stands up in court and says to the judge that he observed you driving dangerously or without due care then all your arguing about technicalities and grey areas will likely only end up with you getting more points and a bigger fine than if you just had of left it uncontested and paid the €80 on the spot fine and taken the two points. I'd imagine that's what the vast majority of people do and because the law is never really challenged then it is never going to change.