Toulon vs Munster buildup/ticket discussion

former legend

[Jackass] wrote: »

I hope you bash seven shades of sh*ite out of these lads at the weekend.

Leinster were spineless and directionless over in Toulon, but with the game moved to Marsaille and with a blue print of what not to do from the Leinster game as well as a good video of what Toulon will want to do against Munster (more or less exactly the same plan for them I'd imagine), I give Munster every chance in this one.

I think the most sickening thing losing to them was that fear definitely lost it for Leinster. We lost the game before we set foot on the pitch, but only realised during the game that these mercenaries are eminently beatable.

I think Toulon stand for everything that's wrong with modern rugby and Munster stand for the tradition and integrity of the game.

Give 'em hell and redeem the Irish reputation over there, left in tatters by Leinster unfortunately.

Ah here. When are boards.ie going to roll out the 'dislike' button?

thomond2006

I really think mercenaries is a lazy label. It implies that the players are just there to pick up a wage and then don't give a **** after that. If Toulon were just a bunch of mercenaries then they wouldn't have reached four finals in the last five seasons.

How dare those Toulon players pick up such a big pay packet. But guess what? Munster, Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse and Clermont players are paid too! :eek: So what makes Toulon players mercenaries and the other players not mercenaries?

Yes Mourad is a bad apple but he has invested quite a significant portion of his money into his local club, a club with a lot of history, to return them to its former glory. Forget about rugby for a minute, how many jobs has he created? How much money does a few thousand travelling Leinster fans bring into the local economy? Is it really all that bad?

Toulouse and Clermont have a bigger budget than Toulon and plenty foreign players, yet I don't see people calling them mercenaries. Double standards.

former legend

Anyhoo, looks like Wilkinson will be back for the game as well as Craig Burden, but Botha and Ali Williams looking very unlikely.

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

I really think mercenaries is a lazy label. It implies that the players are just there to pick up a wage and then don't give a **** after that. If Toulon were just a bunch of mercenaries then they wouldn't have reached four finals in the last five seasons.

How dare those Toulon players pick up such a big pay packet. But guess what? Munster, Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse and Clermont players are paid too! :eek: So what makes Toulon players mercenaries and the other players not mercenaries?

Yes Mourad is a bad apple but he has invested quite a significant portion of his money into his local club, a club with a lot of history, to return them to its former glory. Forget about rugby for a minute, how many jobs has he created? How much money does a few thousand travelling Leinster fans bring into the local economy? Is it really all that bad?

Toulouse and Clermont have a bigger budget than Toulon and plenty foreign players, yet I don't see people calling them mercenaries. Double standards.

In fairness the Baabaas beat some big teams too. I think the fact that they are picking up silverware (after what I would class as an under performing run of rugby with some great names) doesn't really prove anything. If you pack a team full of world beaters they'll eventually click and become very hard to stop. Even if they aren't playing with commitment.

I'm not suggesting any of the above is true though, I'm just playing devil's advocate. Sure, Mercenaries is a lazy term, but it is that far from the truth?

Also, I don't think you could bundle Toulose into that category. They seem to be the only one providing the French team with home grown talent and they're struggling for their efforts it seems.

A case could be made by Clermont, although there definitely seems to be much more of a home-town vibe with the team and they play with a lot of passion for that.

former legend

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/coupe-d-europe/2013-2014/bernard-laporte-toulon-il-va-falloir-faire-des-choix-face-au-munster_sto4222554/story.shtml

Bernard Laporte's perspective on Munster:

All the Munster staff were in Barcelona to watch our match against Perpignan. They only have the European Cup in mind. Their power in the maul is a formidable weapon and they're very efficient at the lineout. They're not at this stage of the competition for no reason, but they must be saying the same thing about us. We have a slight advantage in playing at home in the Velodrome. You can say that it's 51% - 49%, as we saw last year when we went to Saracens and won in the semi-final. In any case, it's a bonus for our supporters not to have to travel to support us.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Toulouse and Clermont have a bigger budget than Toulon and plenty foreign players, yet I don't see people calling them mercenaries. Double standards.

If it's any consolation, I think they're all mercenaries!

In fairness, you're p*ssing into the wind. The respective budgets of sides has been printed in the past with Clermont and Toulouse topping the list. People will ignore it.

Toulon are the bad guys and the nouveau riche. Their history will be ignored. Racing were tarred with the exact same brush when they initially were promoted and spent big but the noise has died down because they haven't been as successful.

phog

Munster rugby are looking for a mascot for Sunday, must be aged between 5 & 11 and need to be at the game.

.ak

phog wrote: »

Munster rugby are looking for a mascot for Sunday, must be aged between 5 & 11 and need to be at the game.

Ah, that rules me out then.

Molester Stallone

.ak wrote: »

Ah, that rules me out then.

Thought that was the mental age of all mods?.........I've not been banned in a long time

Diabhal Beag

Somebody call Marie Cassidy out of retirement because ak just got murdered.

thomond2006

Laulala is back fit and Cronin should be.

Riskymove

thomond2006 wrote: »

I really think mercenaries is a lazy label. It implies that the players are just there to pick up a wage and then don't give a **** after that. If Toulon were just a bunch of mercenaries then they wouldn't have reached four finals in the last five seasons.

I suppose the sheer amount of such players is what people react to...the professional approach taken to an extreme with few French and probably very few "local" players

I mean there's very little difference to individual situations that have occurred here like Brad Thorn or Rocky for example...but most of the team are still mad eup of Irish and in many cases local players

unfortunately it is the way things are likely to go in the future more generally but that is aport of a professional game

danthefan

thomond2006 wrote: »

I really think mercenaries is a lazy label. It implies that the players are just there to pick up a wage and then don't give a **** after that. If Toulon were just a bunch of mercenaries then they wouldn't have reached four finals in the last five seasons.

Well said, has always annoyed me how sanctimonious Irish rugby fans can be about foreigners at other teams. You'd think all our NIQs were getting paid in magic beans and were here just for the honour of representing one of the provinces.

Toulon are a serious team, with a great set of fans. They are actually a proper rugby club. It's unfortunate that so few of the team is French but that's a result of the rules in place in the T14 as much as anything.

phog

Hope you feel them again on Sunday.

You could just feel Munster all over you, says Puma captain

Argentine captain Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe has been sharing his experience of facing Munster in the Heineken Cup with his Toulon teammates and leaving them in no doubt about the threat they face in Marseille on Sunday.

The 32-year old flanker had his first experience of Heineken Cup rugby, when he was with Sale Sharks, fairly dampened by a Munster side who turned them over home and away.

thomond2006

danthefan wrote: »

Well said, has always annoyed me how sanctimonious Irish rugby fans can be about foreigners at other teams. You'd think all our NIQs were getting paid in magic beans and were here just for the honour of representing one of the provinces.

Toulon are a serious team, with a great set of fans. They are actually a proper rugby club. It's unfortunate that so few of the team is French but that's a result of the rules in place in the T14 as much as anything.

Not necessarily a reply to you Dan but a follow up to the topic:

Toulon actually played more JIFF players in the Top14 than any other side last year. The LNR president said it himself.

danthefan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Not necessarily a reply to you Dan but a follow up to the topic:

Toulon actually played more JIFF players in the Top14 than any other side last year. The LNR president said it himself.

What exactly is the definition of a JIFF player?

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

Hope you feel them again on Sunday.

You could just feel Munster all over you, says Puma captain

My favourite player. Can't wait to see him live again!

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

My favourite player. Can't wait to see him live again!

This is one day where I hope he's not on his top game.

thomond2006

danthefan wrote: »

What exactly is the definition of a JIFF player?

To qualify for the JIFF rules, a player must spend three seasons in a French club’s academy between the ages of 16 and 21. That means the JIFF laws do not exclude non-French born players, and indeed many Top 14 clubs have overcome the ruling simply by signing younger players and nationalizing them earlier. Young Fijians are now being brought over to France at the age of 18 by teams like Toulon and Clermont.

http://sport.ie.msn.com/rugby/toulon-say-they-will-play-in-the-heineken-cup-next-season

As far as I can tell it's very similar to the homegrown player rules in the Premier League.

The JIFF rule is set to be increased year and year until 2017 I think. By then a club will have to play 13 JIFFs in each matchday 23. Currently the JIFF rules only affect extended squad numbers. The sanction for not adhering to the rules is a loss in television/marketing revenue that is divided by the league at the end of the season...so a fine more or less!

As I've said on here previously it may not be too everyone's tastes that young non-French players can become JIFFs but it is hugely beneficial to lower tier nations like Georgia whose players can be a valuable commodity in France. Toulon's Georgians Chilachava and Mikautadze are training and playing with a high level club and have a better chance of sticking around with their JIFF status. Josua Tuisova, a former Fiji 7s teenager, was brought into the Toulon academy and made 7/8 Top14 appearances this year. Clermont have done the same with Nakatiaci who played for France in New Zealand last June.

Boudjellal hates the JIFF rule, remember his threat to align with ERC and the Heineken Cup against the Champions Cup breakaway? He spun it around saying that the club looks at how good a player is and not his nationality. It's a different way of looking at things I suppose.

If we look at the likely Toulon side:

Chiocci, Burden, Hayman, Rossouw, Suta, J Smith, Fernandez Lobbe, S Armitage;
Tillous-Borde, Wilkinson, Habana, Giteau, Bastareaud, Mitchell, D Armitage

Bench: Orioli, Menini, Castrogiovanni, Mikautadze, Bruni, Michalak, Mermoz, D Smith

The bolded are the JIFF players. Hopefully that explains it for you Dan!

OldRio

Mercenaries ? Burn them all I say.

If you or I were head hunted and offered the same I'm sure we would all refuse because we are better men than those money grabbers.

South of France. Good food. Good weather. Great wine. 10 times the salary, at least. The women. Oh la la.

Nah. Mercenaries the lot. It wouldn't turn our heads. Would it ?

danthefan

Thanks Thomond. I see a non-French eligible player can be JIFF which makes the whole thing a bit of a fudge imo.

former legend

danthefan wrote: »

Thanks Thomond. I see a non-French eligible player can be JIFF which makes the whole thing a bit of a fudge imo.

It would be open to all sorts of legal challenges if it was restricted to French natives.

irishbucsfan

danthefan wrote: »

Thanks Thomond. I see a non-French eligible player can be JIFF which makes the whole thing a bit of a fudge imo.

It isn't though. The restrictions that are in place to enable you to be a JIFF in the first place means that the only JIFFs who aren't French qualified are going to be guys who the French overlooked. So it's not that much of a problem.

And the truth is that they cannot legally restrict it based on national eligibility, it only works in Ireland because of the provinces legal relationship with the Union.

phog

It’s silly to say Munster have no pressure on them just because they’re underdogs by Alan Quinlan

All week you will hear people talking about the job Munster have on their hands against Toulon this weekend. Somewhere along the way, you are almost certain to hear somebody – maybe a player, maybe a coach, maybe a pundit – say that because Munster are going to France as such huge underdogs, they have no pressure on them. Don’t believe a word of it.

Of all the sports cliches, I never believed that one. I’ve played in games where we were favourites and in games where we were underdogs: trust me, there’s less pressure when you’re playing for the better team. There is massive pressure on any team going into a game where the opposition are packed with superstars or have a passionate home crowd behind them or both.

thomond2006

Was Quinny talking about this earlier? :pac:

ScrubsfanChris

Was looking at a few pictures there of the Stade Velodrome and it looks like one side is going to be completely unoccupied because of the ongoing renovations.
Might make for a strange atmosphere....

Hagz

Toulon to me are like an English Premiership football team. Exactly what I don't want club rugby becoming.

Grimebox

That's shocking. Surely it will be a sell out? Why not move to another stadium?

irishbucsfan

Grimebox wrote: »

That's shocking. Surely it will be a sell out? Why not move to another stadium?

It has been moved to Stade Velodrome. Their stadium is Stade Mayol.

former legend

Grimebox wrote: »

That's shocking. Surely it will be a sell out? Why not move to another stadium?

Tickets are still available.

Toulon often move to the Allianz Stadium in Nice (they're playing Stade Francais there next weekend) but there is a soccer game on there this weekend.