Can we have peaceful, national protests yet?

hatrickpatrick

comongethappy wrote: »

So let's say that is true.

Which party would you like to see take power?

And what are you doing today to make that happen?

It's not about parties. It's about our system of government and the rules which govern those who sit in the Dail, in the cabinet table, in government departments, etc etc etc.

Let's start with something fairly basic. Would you agree that James Reilly should have been removed from his post with immediate effect when this whole debacle was revealed?
Perhaps I just desire higher standards of ethics from our government than you do.

jdawson

Uriel. wrote: »

well played sir, didn't take you long to get around to the playground, fancy a push on the swing?

There's no point in discussing this with someone who invents viewpoints and talks about magic money trees, I'll be sure to inform my "mates" that taxes are the reason why they are dissatisfied with the government. Run along. :pac:

comongethappy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's not about parties. It's about our system of government and the rules which govern those who sit in the Dail, in the cabinet table, in government departments, etc etc etc.

Let's start with something fairly basic. Would you agree that James Reilly should have been removed from his post with immediate effect when this whole debacle was revealed?
Perhaps I just desire higher standards of ethics from our government than you do.

Straw man stuff.

You claim its "not about parties".

What is it about then.

Please tell everyone YOUR form of government (that will work & is not fantastical).

Then tell us about what you are doing to implement it.

renegademaster

comongethappy wrote: »

Straw man stuff.

You claim its "not about parties".

What is it about then.

Please tell everyone YOUR form of government (that will work & is not fantastical).

Then tell us about what you are doing to implement it.

problem is not who's in the dail, it's what the people let these individuals away with while they're in the dail and afterwards these corrupt individuals walk away with full term pensions!!

Uriel.

jdawson wrote: »

There's no point in discussing this with someone who invents viewpoints and talks about magic money trees, I'll be sure to inform my "mates" that taxes are the reason why they are dissatisfied with the government. Run along. :pac:

Cool. While informing them, make sure you find out what they have in mind to take over from the current Government.

comongethappy

renegademaster wrote: »

problem is not who's in the dail, it's what the people let these individuals away with while they're in the dail and afterwards these corrupt individuals walk away with full term pensions!!

So your solution is.........

(seeing as the Irish electorate rejected plans to increase the scope & scale of investigations into politicians & officials)

renegademaster

comongethappy wrote: »

So your solution is.........

(seeing as the Irish electorate rejected plans to increase the scope & scale of investigations into politicians & officials)

holding governement to account!! mess up and you're out, this idea of leaving blatently corrupt liers in power for their full terms and watch them ride out into the sunset with full term pensions and the profits from claiming and taking all they could in the 4 years is not holding government to account, it's called fanning the flames!!

you are deliberately tryin to complicate the solution here for some reason unknown to me, are you on glue??

ps the irish people were damn right in rejecting the plans to increase the scope & scale of investigations into politicians & officials, christ imagine the corrupt shower having those powers!!

Scofflaw

jdawson, Uriel, pack in the playground stuff please.

moderately,
Scofflaw

comongethappy

It IS a complicated matter .

In order for us to get on board with your ideas, you have to articulate them.

Please outline further how politicians are to be removed from their ministerial office?
How does one measure something like competence?

If some people feel an ENTIRE government is corrupt/incompetent AND don't want to wait for the next election, tell us the mechanism for removing them?


I cannot overcomplicate something so complicated to begin with!

Banjo String

Uriel. wrote: »

I don't think so at all. You have a strange view of the last 10 years.

The current Government came into power when the country was effectively on its knees, if not already half buried.

Things are not so bad as they were 3 years ago. It's a slow process for sure, but how you could possibly think that this Government have under performed in comparison to the last is beyond me.

The problem you and your mates seem to have is the wonderful thinking that If I pay more taxes the Government is crap. If the Government give me more money they must be good.This just isn't the case, not always at least.

Have I less disposable income than I had 5 or 6 years ago? for sure! But if you think it had to be any other way then you are delusional - would another single or coalition Government other than the current have produced some sort of magic money tree to free us of our woes? No, of course not!

Its entirely possible people might be looking beyond the taxation/economic successes and failures of the government.

People might be dissatisfied with the whole new approach to Govt we were promised.

Whatever happened to the 'transparency, openness and and end to corruption" promised by Enda?

I also don't buy this whole "inherited mess from previous Govts" either.

And if anyone wants to talk strawman arguments. How's about anytime Enda/Eamon or any other member get ask anything slightly touchy by Adams/Mcdonald or Martin, usually replied with some reference to, Jean McConville /Northern bank or the old "when your party bankrupt the country" spiel

Don't you sometimes aspect a reasoned and coherent reply to legitimate questions the odd time?

norrie rugger

There will be no protests until they are not hijacked by the opposition or flakey single issue groups.

People get sick of some random self serving FF politician (or FG/Labour when they were opposition parties) trying to take over and just get publicity (of the Sinn Fein types that always turn up)

Then you get the likes of the People Before Profit crusties that drag everything down to the level of "Won't somebody think of the children!!"

sarumite

Banjo String wrote: »

I also don't buy this whole "inherited mess from previous Govts" either.

Can you expand on this? I really don't know how you could argue otherwise.

norrie rugger

sarumite wrote: »

Can you expand on this? I really don't know how you could argue otherwise.

Yeah seems a bit strange.

So country is in a ****bowl coming up to General Election. Does he mean that the day after a GE nothing is the fault of the previous shower?

jdawson

sarumite wrote: »

Can you expand on this? I really don't know how you could argue otherwise.

norrie rugger wrote: »

Yeah seems a bit strange.

So country is in a ****bowl coming up to General Election. Does he mean that the day after a GE nothing is the fault of the previous shower?

I would assume the idea is not that nothing has been inherited from the previous crowd, but rather at some point the current government must take responsibility for their own actions instead of always pointing the finger of blame elsewhere.

sarumite

jdawson wrote: »

I would assume the idea is not that nothing has been inherited from the previous crowd, but rather at some point the current government must take responsibility for their own actions instead of always pointing the finger of blame elsewhere.

If someone is going to criticise the government for making tax increases or spending cuts, then they should do so within the context of why those cuts are being made. Unfortunately our opposition are too busy trying to score political points than making succinct arguments or offering practical alternatives.

norrie rugger

jdawson wrote: »

I would assume the idea is not that nothing has been inherited from the previous crowd, but rather at some point the current government must take responsibility for their own actions instead of always pointing the finger of blame elsewhere.

It took FF 10 years to ruin the country, you expect anything good to come out of the first term?

I whole heartedly disagree with the WAY that FG/Lab are doing things but the reason WHY is clear, and that is the previous government of FF

hatrickpatrick

comongethappy wrote: »

Straw man stuff.

You claim its "not about parties".

What is it about then.

The structure of government, and the ethical standards expected of those in office when dealing with government business, especially those where there is a clear conflict of interest.

Please tell everyone YOUR form of government (that will work & is not fantastical).

Once again, how about we start with more stringent criteria for the type of behaviour which would automatically cost a minister their post? Since any time I raise multiple issues people cherry pick which ones to answer, let's take that one first before discussing any others. What say you? As I said in a previous post, do you agree or disagree that James Reilly's primary care centre shenanigans should have been a red card issue? Or Alan Shatter's behaviour in recent months?

And if not, then what in your opinion is the threshold beyond which sacking a minister should transition from a Tapiseach's discretion to a statutory requirement?

Then tell us about what you are doing to implement it.

Right now I'm talking to people about it to gauge interest, and I'm very seriously considering forming my own party when I'm finished in college, or at the very least a pressure group which is something I could probably do while also still doing my degree. As I said before, I will do neither of these things without first doing some market research - suggestions that there should be a fully fledged movement before it can even be discussed are absolutely ludicrous.

comongethappy

Shatter = gone
Reilly = gone.
(IMO).

however my opinion is irrelevant to the thrust of the thread.

I'm just wondering what impotent online whinging about the government & the structure of our democracy achieves?

Especially when, as you mention, you have nothing better to offer readers here as way of a solution.

jdawson

sarumite wrote: »

If someone is going to criticise the government for making tax increases or spending cuts, then they should do so within the context of why those cuts are being made. Unfortunately our opposition are too busy trying to score political points than making succinct arguments or offering practical alternatives.

norrie rugger wrote: »

It took FF 10 years to ruin the country, you expect anything good to come out of the first term?

I whole heartedly disagree with the WAY that FG/Lab are doing things but the reason WHY is clear, and that is the previous government of FF

As has been stated by others already, dissatisfaction with the current government is not just a result of taxes and cuts. Nobody is oblivious to the financial situation that the country is in. The litany of scandals, whether related to the Gardai, Irish Water, whatever, is horrendous.

Banjo String

comongethappy wrote: »

Shatter = gone
O'Reilly = gone.
(IMO).

however my opinion is irrelevant to the thrust of the thread.

I'm just wondering what impotent online whinging about the government & the structure of our democracy achieves?

Especially when, as you mention, you have nothing better to offer readers here as way of a solution.

Which O'Reilly

comongethappy

Banjo String wrote: »

Which O'Reilly

Android predictive screwing me over.

jmayo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's nothing to protest about. I have food in my belly an clothes on my back sure what else would I want?

Pretty good actually. We're well on the way to recovery.

I hope you are being sarcastic.
Why oh why does this remind me of the days of bertie when shure the fact that the country was tied, in ultimately a death spiral, to construction was nothing to worry about since shure wasn't everyone doing well and their gaff was worth 3 times what they paid for it.

Have we learned nothing ?
Over on another thread Scofflaw was proffering the idea that dumping all the bank debt on the taxpayers would cause them to pay closer attention to how the country was run from a banking financial perspective.
And he probably wondered why I was so sceptical and cynical. :rolleyes:

Phoebas wrote: »

And you'll get that opportunity at the next general election.
In the meantime, he is the democratically elected Minister for Justice.

Excuse me, but he was not elected as a minister of justice, he was elected as a TD.
He was then picked by his party leader and the Taoiseach to be a minister.
BTW your argument stinks of the Russian line on the ex Ukrainian president.
Once elected never to be challenged ehhh ?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Exactly as Phoebas has said, Shatter is the rightful Minister for Justice and you're just going to have to put up with that until April 2016 when you will get the chance to vote against his party. Things are getting better now and I for one won't put that at risk just to give some people a chance to vent.

I might be labelled by some around here as being pro Fine Gael and I would have been to a fair degree, but the actions of shatter have been reprehensible.

We hear ministers coming out and praising whistleblowers, yet their colleague shatter and his pet poodle callinan character assassinated, isolated and belittled them for daring to stand up and tell the truth.
Their actions have resulted in making sure the next would be whistleblower will not just think twice but think a thousand times before putting their head above the parapet.

While I would have liked to see shatter on his crusade against the legal profession in this country, I think his actions on this matter stink.

So much for bringing in new policies and getting rid of non performing ministers.

And as for nothing to protest, I can't believe that no one can see the dishing out of taxpayer funds to certain people who are unable, either through choice or circumstance, to repay their mortgages is not a major concern to a lot of people in this country.
With the way the mortgage debt writeoffs are being secretly handled there is a damm good chance that the best part of a hundred million of taxpayer backed funds will find their way as tax free gifts into some people's hands, whilst they continue to enjoy a home that the rest of us can probably only dream of.

Bullshít to the crapology that things are grand and that the curent crowd are doing a great job. :mad:

sarumite

jdawson wrote: »

As has been stated by others already, dissatisfaction with the current government is not just a result of taxes and cuts. Nobody is oblivious to the financial situation that the country is in. The litany of scandals, whether related to the Gardai, Irish Water, whatever, is horrendous.

The 'litany' of scandals? I am not the biggest fan of this government, but A 'litany of scandals' is overblowing a tad. I mean the Gardai scandal is as much a legacy of the previous government as it is this one and Irish water, while scandalous, is hardly a scandal. I have dissatisfaction with this government, as I would with any government. In general you should always want your government to do better. This government have handled some aspect quite poorly. However, I think some peoples expectations on what they expect from a government really need to be tempered somewhat.

renegademaster

sarumite wrote: »

The 'litany' of scandals? I am not the biggest fan of this government, but A 'litany of scandals' is overblowing a tad. I mean the Gardai scandal is as much a legacy of the previous government as it is this one and Irish water, while scandalous, is hardly a scandal. I have dissatisfaction with this government, as I would with any government. In general you should always want your government to do better. This government have handled some aspect quite poorly. However, I think some peoples expectations on what they expect from a government really need to be tempered somewhat.

so your memory extends as far back as the gardai and irish water scandal, right at you've written one of those memories off as a fianna fail scandal even though shatter has stood over it all the last few years and he's well and truly made a flippin mess of it,

come on now, i'm sure you could remember a whole lot more scandals since fine gael/labour came to power and when ya do, add them all up and come up with a mamoth excuse to brush them all over with a nice gloss and look forward to adding to that pile of $hite regularly out of fine gael/labour until april 2016 when we send them all on their way with full dail term pensions and having creamed a fortune from us for 5 years of blatent corruption and cryonism!!

whoopdefcukindoo!!

twowheelsgood

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

As I said in a previous post, do you agree or disagree that James Reilly's primary care centre shenanigans should have been a red card issue?

The difficulty of course is that those with the authority to issue him a red card for this (his constituents), far from giving him a red card will take a polar opposite view. Substantial brownie points will have been accrued by Minister Reilly here. Such behaviour doesn’t threaten his political future, it secures it.

And this is not peculiar to that minister, or the current government or even this nation. Keeping your constituents sweet seems to me to be a universal trait in democracies. Surely you notice the glee here with which almost all will greet the appointment of a TD from their own constituency as a minister? Or do you think it is just local pride as play? Why do you suppose that the big upsets at general election time is when a minister loses their seat?

To change this you will need to have constituents who will object to “their” minister pulling strokes for the benefit of their constituents at the expense of the wider populace. Can you cite even one example where such a stance was ever taken?

Demanding high standards from public office is fine and noble, but if it requires that gravity be compelled to cause objects to fall up rather than down then maybe this is a battle that idealism will just have to concede to realism.

twowheelsgood

renegademaster wrote: »

…fine gael/labour until april 2016 when we send them all on their way with full dail term pensions and having creamed a fortune from us for 5 years of blatent corruption and cryonism!!

You might want to brace yourself for the real possibility that the current government could be re-elected after the next general election! And if they are not, the next government will almost certainly be led by FF.

I’m afraid your bad humour caused of the people elected to govern this state will likely continue for several more years!

oscarBravo

twowheelsgood wrote: »

To change this you will need to have constituents who will object to “their” minister pulling strokes for the benefit of their constituents at the expense of the wider populace.

...or - my personal preference - an appointed cabinet drawn from outside the ranks of the elected representatives, but answerable to the Dáil both through confirmation hearings and in committee on an ongoing basis.

hatrickpatrick

sarumite wrote: »

The 'litany' of scandals? I am not the biggest fan of this government, but A 'litany of scandals' is overblowing a tad.

I'd certainly call it a litany. When I have a bit more time later I'll type up a bullet point list of scandals over the last couple of years if you like

I mean the Gardai scandal is as much a legacy of the previous government as it is this one

The scandals here are not the events themselves, but Shatter's appalling reaction to them and the government's refusal to break ranks with one of their own in the name of the greater good. That's what this is about.

and Irish water, while scandalous, is hardly a scandal.

Best sentence ever. "The attack, while atrocious, was hardly an atrocity." "The incident, while calamitous, was hardly a calamity." "The body part exposed, while nippular, was hardly a nipple."
.....ok sorry got a bit carried a way there, this is getting a little weird

Point is, I think we simply have different criteria for scandal. If we're going to be paying through the nose for something as basic as water, then that money damn well better not be spent on more effing cronyism. How such obscene payments to consultants while pretending to be all about the environment etc etc etc can be regarded as anything but a scandal is beyond me.

I have dissatisfaction with this government, as I would with any government.

Does that not suggest to you that the system is the problem and not whatever government we install into it?

In general you should always want your government to do better. This government have handled some aspect quite poorly. However, I think some peoples expectations on what they expect from a government really need to be tempered somewhat.

I expect a high standard of integrity, ethics, and above all accountability from my government. We have none of these three vital criteria in Ireland. That's what I'm advocating a protest about.
Does that really make me a loony, crusty, muppet or eejit as so many want to suggest?

hatrickpatrick

twowheelsgood wrote: »

The difficulty of course is that those with the authority to issue him a red card for this (his constituents), far from giving him a red card will take a polar opposite view. Substantial brownie points will have been accrued by Minister Reilly here. Such behaviour doesn’t threaten his political future, it secures it.

Except he's a national minister, so it shouldn't be up to his constituents, it should be up to the whole country.

And this is not peculiar to that minister, or the current government or even this nation. Keeping your constituents sweet seems to me to be a universal trait in democracies.

Agreed, which is why we need to reform the system so that national politics are as untangled from local issues as they possibly can be. You can't completely untangle them, but you can certainly untangle them far more than we've done in Ireland.

Surely you notice the glee here with which almost all will greet the appointment of a TD from their own constituency as a minister? Or do you think it is just local pride as play? Why do you suppose that the big upsets at general election time is when a minister loses their seat?

To change this you will need to have constituents who will object to “their” minister pulling strokes for the benefit of their constituents at the expense of the wider populace. Can you cite even one example where such a stance was ever taken?

Or, once a minister is appointed, it becomes a national issue. So if we have some mechanism for the public to call for a minister's head, it should be a national mechanism, not a constituency one.

Demanding high standards from public office is fine and noble, but if it requires that gravity be compelled to cause objects to fall up rather than down then maybe this is a battle that idealism will just have to concede to realism.

I don't agree - it requires new laws and structures, which is something we don't like to think about in Ireland but we tend to find later that it was a good idea on the rare occasions we give it a shot

renegademaster

twowheelsgood wrote: »

You might want to brace yourself for the real possibility that the current government could be re-elected after the next general election! And if they are not, the next government will almost certainly be led by FF.

I’m afraid your bad humour caused of the people elected to govern this state will likely continue for several more years!

fine gael and labour will go the way of the greens in next general elections and i do realise what that prediction means but as i've been saying for long enough now, the problem with worldwide politics it's not who's in power, it's what the people allow politicians get up to and not be held accountable for.