Can we have peaceful, national protests yet?

renegademaster

It's beyond time to be out on the streets demanding true change here.

before anyone suggests these things get hijacked can I just suggest we go and outnumber the 20 or 50 nutters that will undoubtably show up, even last week at spains massive protests there were reports of some nutters showing up but they were in a minority of compared to the 1,000,000 honest and decent people who just want change.

until there's some unity here in Ireland the corrupt are just going to keep walking all over us

ezra_pound

renegademaster wrote: »

It's beyond time to be out on the streets demanding true change here.

before anyone suggests these things get hijacked can I just suggest we go and outnumber the 20 or 50 nutters that will undoubtably show up, even last week at spains massive protests there were reports of some nutters showing up but they were in a minority of compared to the 1,000,000 honest and decent people who just want change.

until there's some unity here in Ireland the corrupt are just going to keep walking all over us

What specifically are you going to protest about? The corrupt walking all over us?

I for one think that the government are doing an excellent job.

renegademaster

ezra_pound wrote: »

What specifically are you going to protest about? The corrupt walking all over us?

I for one think that the government are doing an excellent job.

howya Enda

if you have to ask well then you obviously haven't been watching what's been made public the last few years

Iwasfrozen

renegademaster wrote: »

It's beyond time to be out on the streets demanding true change here.

before anyone suggests these things get hijacked can I just suggest we go and outnumber the 20 or 50 nutters that will undoubtably show up, even last week at spains massive protests there were reports of some nutters showing up but they were in a minority of compared to the 1,000,000 honest and decent people who just want change.

until there's some unity here in Ireland the corrupt are just going to keep walking all over us

What change? Things aren't as bad here as they are in Spain. We're starting to recover now do you think we're going to risk our stability and recovery for a few nutters who want to vent?

ezra_pound

What are your specific damna?- general corruption as revealed over the last few years!

What are your remedies?-change in general!

ThisRegard

renegademaster wrote: »

howya Enda

if you have to ask well then you obviously haven't been watching what's been made public the last few years

Sigh, must we always have these childish responses?

renegademaster

it was only a fortnight ago that some fine gaeler stated during their ard fheis that the lack of protest was a sure sign of broad support for their actions since taking up office and going against their election manifesto and the mandate the people elected them on.

at the moment the corrupt are watching the irish people continually do nothing no matter how much corruption comes to light.

are we really going to sit aorund while enda and co run us all into the ground until april 2016 when we'll be voting the next corrupt shower in and they'll have watched us do nothing to challenge corruption and will just continue on the same as if it was still labour/fine gael or fianna fail in power!!

nobody see the danger in not having some peaceful protests?? it's amazing how much reform can be talked about once people show they want it badly enough.

ezra_pound

renegademaster wrote: »

it was only a fortnight ago that some fine gaeler stated during their ard fheis that the lack of protest was a sure sign of broad support for their actions since taking up office and going against their election manifesto and the mandate the people elected them on.

at the moment the corrupt are watching the irish people continually do nothing no matter how much corruption comes to light.

are we really going to sit aorund while enda and co run us all into the ground until april 2016 when we'll be voting the next corrupt shower in and they'll have watched us do nothing to challenge corruption and will just continue on the same as if it was still labour/fine gael or fianna fail in power!!

nobody see the danger in not having some peaceful protests?? it's amazing how much reform can be talked about once people show they want it badly enough.

What do you mean run us into the ground? The current executive have saved this nation and its economy from disaster.

Rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Phoebas

renegademaster wrote: »

It's beyond time to be out on the streets demanding true change here.

Did you have something specific in mind or should we dust off our 'Down with this sort of thing' posters?

renegademaster

Phoebas wrote: »

Did you have something specific in mind or should we dust off our 'Down with this sort of thing' posters?

no we should just keep doing nothing and hope for the best, one of these days the corrupt will wake up and decide to change their ways because it's the right thing to do

Phoebas

renegademaster wrote: »

no we should just keep doing nothing and hope for the best, one of these days the corrupt will wake up and decide to change their ways because it's the right thing to do

Its going to be a rubbish protest if you're organising it.

"What do we want?"
"Eh, not sure. Let's just go home and hope for the best"

renegademaster

Phoebas wrote: »

Its going to be a rubbish protest if you're organising it.

"What do we want?"
"Eh, not sure. Let's just go home and hope for the best"

no matter who or what a protest is called for or by it's the same lame excuses from the majority an the keyboard warriors

each and everytime a protest has been called the last few years the whole country was too busy to stand up for itself, how's that working out for us eh??????

JustAddWater

ezra_pound wrote: »

I for one think that the government are doing an excellent job.

You got that right! .... Depends on your definition of job

Phoebas

renegademaster wrote: »

no matter who or what a protest is called for or by it's the same lame excuses from the majority an the keyboard warriors

What excuses? I'm just asking a simple question about what specifically you want to protest about. You're the one on your keyboard calling for a protest, but I don't see you organising one - you are the keyboard warrior in this case.

renegademaster wrote: »

each and everytime a protest has been called the last few years the whole country was too busy to stand up for itself, how's that working out for us eh??????

Pretty good really.

bumper234

renegademaster wrote: »

no matter who or what a protest is called for or by it's the same lame excuses from the majority an the keyboard warriors

each and everytime a protest has been called the last few years the whole country was too busy to stand up for itself, how's that working out for us eh??????

This is the 2nd or 3rd thread where i have seen you call for protests yet have never seen you post a "ok we will be meeting at xxxx o'clock at xxxx place to protest about xxxx". Why is that? Do you wish to protest but can't be arsed organizing it or are you afraid no one will turn up?

Iwasfrozen

renegademaster wrote: »

no matter who or what a protest is called for or by it's the same lame excuses from the majority an the keyboard warriors

There's nothing to protest about. I have food in my belly an clothes on my back sure what else would I want?

renegademaster wrote: »

each and everytime a protest has been called the last few years the whole country was too busy to stand up for itself, how's that working out for us eh??????

Pretty good actually. We're well on the way to recovery.

hatrickpatrick

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What change? Things aren't as bad here as they are in Spain. We're starting to recover now do you think we're going to risk our stability and recovery for a few nutters who want to vent?

Who said anything about the economy?
The economy is important, but is not the only important factor in a nation's well being.
We should be protesting against the outrageous level of corruption in the establishment. First it was the church, then the banks, then the charities, and now the entire justice system.

The Irish establishment is rotten to its core. It needs to be cleaned out, reset, and its entire structure demolished and rebuilt from scratch.
How anyone could believe that we don't need some kind of protest is beyond me. To make it very clear: if people like Shatter won't go, we, the sovereign people of Ireland, have every right and duty to make him go.

Phoebas

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

To make it very clear: if people like Shatter won't go, we, the sovereign people of Ireland, have every right and duty to make him go.

And you'll get that opportunity at the next general election.
In the meantime, he is the democratically elected Minister for Justice.

Iwasfrozen

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Who said anything about the economy?
The economy is important, but is not the only important factor in a nation's well being.
We should be protesting against the outrageous level of corruption in the establishment. First it was the church, then the banks, then the charities, and now the entire justice system.

The Irish establishment is rotten to its core. It needs to be cleaned out, reset, and its entire structure demolished and rebuilt from scratch.
How anyone could believe that we don't need some kind of protest is beyond me. To make it very clear: if people like Shatter won't go, we, the sovereign people of Ireland, have every right and duty to make him go.

Exactly as Phoebas has said, Shatter is the rightful Minister for Justice and you're just going to have to put up with that until April 2016 when you will get the chance to vote against his party. Things are getting better now and I for one won't put that at risk just to give some people a chance to vent.

hatrickpatrick

Phoebas wrote: »

And you'll get that opportunity at the next general election.
In the meantime, he is the democratically elected Minister for Justice.

And you think this level of democratic oversight as accountability is good enough? There are a lot of us who don't.

bumper234

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And you think this level of democratic oversight as accountability is good enough? There are a lot of us who don't.

So when is your protest? Where are we meeting? What time? What slogans should we have on the placards? Where are we marching to?

hatrickpatrick

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Exactly as Phoebas has said, Shatter is the rightful Minister for Justice and you're just going to have to put up with that until April 2016 when you will get the chance to vote against his party.

Not good enough. Sorry. You don't have to agree, but some of us aren't ok with that "solution" and putting up with this sh!te for another two years before we can do anything about it.

Things are getting better now and I for one won't put that at risk just to give some people a chance to vent.

How does stamping out corruption and reforming the establishment put anything at risk?

hatrickpatrick

bumper234 wrote: »

So when is your protest? Where are we meeting? What time? What slogans should we have on the placards? Where are we marching to?

None of this has been decided yet but I'll certainly advocate one within the next fortnight, if no one else is organising one I'll do that myself.

Iwasfrozen

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not good enough. Sorry. You don't have to agree, but some of us aren't ok with that "solution" and putting up with this sh!te for another two years before we can do anything about it.

Emphasis on the word some. Judging by the attendance at recent protests it would seem I'm in the majority. So unless the majority come round to your way of thinking you have two choices: continue to shout your throat hoarse at protests that achieve nothing or sit down, keep quiet and wait of the next election.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

How does stamping out corruption and reforming the establishment put anything at risk?

The markets hate risk, the overthrow of a government and to quote "The Irish establishment is rotten to its core. It needs to be cleaned out, reset, and its entire structure demolished and rebuilt from scratch." is about as risky to our recovery as it gets.

bumper234

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

None of this has been decided yet but I'll certainly advocate one within the next fortnight, if no one else is organising one I'll do that myself.

So you haven't got a plan in motion yet? Ok let us know when and where so i can watch it on the news.

hatrickpatrick

bumper234 wrote: »

So you haven't got a plan in motion yet? Ok let us know when and where so i can watch it on the news.

Is it not entirely reasonable to try to gauge the level of interest in a new campaign before one sets it in motion?

hatrickpatrick

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Emphasis on the word some. Judging by the attendance at recent protests it would seem I'm in the majority. So unless the majority come round to your way of thinking you have two choices: continue to shout your throat hoarse at protests that achieve nothing or sit down, keep quiet and wait of the next election.

Most young people I've spoken to who don't protest actually do want change, but simply believe that protesting wont work. It's not that they don't want it to happen.

The markets hate risk, the overthrow of a government and to quote "The Irish establishment is rotten to its core. It needs to be cleaned out, reset, and its entire structure demolished and rebuilt from scratch." is about as risky to our recovery as it gets.

How about getting rid of anyone who breaks the rules and behaves as appallingly as Shatter has? Or changing the law to outlaw far more shenanigans than are currently outlawed? Or introducing more democratic accountability, eg the right of recall?

Revolution doesn't have to mean burning buildings and riot police.

Phoebas

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Is it not entirely reasonable to try to gauge the level of interest in a new campaign before one sets it in motion?

An hour ago you thought you had a duty to make Shatter go. Now you want to gauge the level of interest in a possible future campaign that might result in a protest.

Realpolitik.

bumper234

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Is it not entirely reasonable to try to gauge the level of interest in a new campaign before one sets it in motion?

Well so far the consensus seems to be that the majority (in here) are happy with the way things are.

Iwasfrozen

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Most young people I've spoken to who don't protest actually do want change, but simply believe that protesting wont work. It's not that they don't want it to happen.

Well then you better hope the majority come round to your way of thinking, until they do you're left with the two previously mentioned choices. Take your pick.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

How about getting rid of anyone who breaks the rules and behaves as appallingly as Shatter has? Or changing the law to outlaw far more shenanigans than are currently outlawed? Or introducing more democratic accountability, eg the right of recall?

Revolution doesn't have to mean burning buildings and riot police.

That's a big tone down from your earlier rhetoric. I could support this, it would depend on how invasive the legislation was but not by protest.

jelfs

I'll attend the protest. I want this government brought down.

bumper234

jelfs wrote: »

I'll attend the protest. I want this government brought down.

And replaced with???

jelfs

Putin would be better.

jelfs

So long as it's not Fianna Fail or Labour, anyone else would be less corrupt.

oscarBravo

jelfs wrote: »

Putin would be better.

And this, boys and girls, is why we're not protesting.

bumper234

jelfs wrote: »

So long as it's not Fianna Fail or Labour, anyone else would be less corrupt.

So fine gael? A mish mash of independents? How about we revive Hitler via DNA like in Jurassic park and give him a 2nd bash at things :rolleyes:

ezra_pound

bumper234 wrote: »

So fine gael? A mish mash of independents? How about we revive Hitler via DNA like in Jurassic park and give him a 2nd bash at things :rolleyes:

How about anyone who's not in current gov? Sinn fein SWP united left greens and good old ff to satisfy the minority who want a change.

You think things are bad now with competent leadership, watch this country founder faster than biffo can down a pint at an ff fundraiser sing along.

Banjo String

ezra_pound wrote: »

How about anyone who's not in current gov? Sinn fein SWP united left greens and good old ff to satisfy the minority who want a change.

You think things are bad now with competent leadership, watch this country founder faster than biffo can down a pint at an ff fundraiser sing along.

Competent?

Updated 11.39pm

THE FORMER GARDA Commissioner Martin Callinan wrote to the Department of Justice about recordings of calls at garda stations more than two weeks ago, RTÉ has reported.

Callinan is reported to have sent a letter to the Secretary General of the department asking that the Minister of Justice be made aware of the details of the recordings.

The letter is dated 10th March 2014 and was couriered over to the department.

Tonight, a spokesperson for Minister Alan Shatter told TheJournal.ie he only received this letter this morning. The spokesperson was unable to confirm if this was before or after Callinan resigned just before 10am.

The letter, entitled “Recordings of Telephone Conversations made and retained in Garda Stations”, which has been seen by RTÉ News, says the initial recording systems were put in place in the 1980s.

Informed yesterday

A government spokesperson said Shatter was told yesterday of the details that have emerged today of phonecalls in and out of a large number of garda stations being recorded.

This is after the Taoiseach said he was told, on Sunday at 6pm.

Enda Kenny told the Dáil today that the Government had received information of tape recordings in “many garda stations” dating back to the 1980s.

He said he was made aware of the information on Sunday by the Attorney General and spent all day yesterday and last night checking the “validity and veracity of the information”.

The Government said it had learned that system had been in place “for many years” up until November of last year at “a large number of Garda stations” where “incoming and outgoing calls were taped and recorded”.

Speaking earlier this evening, Data Protection Commissioner Billy Hawkes said he had been made aware of the issue by An Garda Siochána “three or four days ago”.

Letter

Speaking on tonight’s 9 o’clock News, RTÉ Crime Correspondent Paul Reynolds, who has seen the letter, said it was three pages long and had been couriered over to the Department of Justice on 10 March.

Reynolds said that the former Commissioner’s letter states that the Attorney General was informed of the issue in November of last year.

Shatter’s spokesperson maintained this evening that the Minister was first given the letter today.

Competent indeed.

hatrickpatrick

Phoebas wrote: »

An hour ago you thought you had a duty to make Shatter go. Now you want to gauge the level of interest in a possible future campaign that might result in a protest.

Realpolitik.

How so? I personally believe we have a duty to make him go, and I'll expand that point by saying I believe we have a duty to make things happen in general. Democracy is not a spectator sport. But just because I believe that, doesn't mean others do - I want to gauge whether people agree or not, before I set in motion a protest campaign or anything like it.
To give you an analogy, would you open a business without first doing market research on the demand for whatever you would be offering?

bumper234 wrote: »

Well so far the consensus seems to be that the majority (in here) are happy with the way things are.

That's certainly not the impression I'm getting. From this thread maybe, but take a look at the "Shatter and Callinan should resign in disgrace" thread for a rather different set of opinions on how this country is being run.

bumper234 wrote: »

So fine gael? A mish mash of independents? How about we revive Hitler via DNA like in Jurassic park and give him a 2nd bash at things :rolleyes:

A mish mash of independents without a whip would be an interesting experiment. With no party line to hide behind they'd have to follow the will of the public rather than party leadership, or lose their seats. We might get a government whose policies were actually representative of what the people want for a change.

comongethappy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

We might get a government whose policies were actually representative of what the people want for a change.

Is that a recipe for success?

To deliver what the Irish voters want is: infinite spending, no tax & an aul medical card thrown in there.

Which part of mob populism delivers on tough decisions?

P_1

bumper234 wrote: »

So fine gael? A mish mash of independents? How about we revive Hitler via DNA like in Jurassic park and give him a 2nd bash at things :rolleyes:

Tír amhain. Pobail amháin. Taoiseach amháin. Has a nice ring to it alright.

We do have a bit of a problem in all seriousness though. We have a very corrupt society. None of the political parties really offer anything different and the barriers for establishing a new party are too high. Protesting doesn't work and the way the global economy is set up having a revolution will cause more trouble than it solves (although we don't face the prospect of Cameron siezeing Cobh if we did).

renegademaster

Phoebas wrote: »

And you'll get that opportunity at the next general election.
In the meantime, he is the democratically elected Minister for Justice.

april 2016 me bollix,

cowens government was gone at this stage!! the people reacted to cowen refusing to call the general elections and with one mass protest we forced change, not one bridge was burned or incident that day, Christy Moore even sung Ordinary Man and 150,000 people sang along at the top of their lungs!!

this time round we'd need to be a lot more pro-active with holding the next government to account so as to not allow rot to set in again, lets face the facts here that an unchecked government for 4 years can and does breed corruption,

the chance of not being allowed the full term by the people if the said government is up to it's eye balls in corruption should regin it in a little and if that's not enough we squeez a little harder until they get the message, mass protests drown out the minority nutters making
this possible through entirely peaceful means

Karl Stein

oscarBravo wrote: »

And this, boys and girls, is why we're not protesting.

And this, my peers, is a quite obvious attempt to stigmatize dissent.

Iwasfrozen

Karl Stein wrote: »

And this, my peers, is a quite obvious attempt to stigmatize dissent.

No attempt needed, he stigmatised himself.

comongethappy

Also, Ireland by Intl standards is not that corrupt.

I think Ireland is perceived as 17th least corrupt in the world by some international corruption index.

I'm not sure how having a more populist government automatically leads to less corruption.

FF giveaways must surely have thought us that?

Phoebas

renegademaster wrote: »

april 2016 me bollix,

cowens government was gone at this stage!! the people reacted to cowen refusing to call the general elections and with one mass protest we forced change, not one bridge was burned or incident that day, Christy Moore even sung Ordinary Man and 150,000 people sang along at the top of their lungs!!

At this stage of what?

We are infinitely better off now than we were when the last government fell. I swear, some people have the shortest memories.

bumper234

renegademaster wrote: »

april 2016 me bollix,

cowens government was gone at this stage!! the people reacted to cowen refusing to call the general elections and with one mass protest we forced change, not one bridge was burned or incident that day, Christy Moore even sung Ordinary Man and 150,000 people sang along at the top of their lungs!!

this time round we'd need to be a lot more pro-active with holding the next government to account so as to not allow rot to set in again, lets face the facts here that an unchecked government for 4 years can and does breed corruption,

the chance of not being allowed the full term by the people if the said government is up to it's eye balls in corruption should regin it in a little and if that's not enough we squeez a little harder until they get the message, mass protests drown out the minority nutters making
this possible through entirely peaceful means

But this option is already there for the citizens of Ireland. If the people were not happy then there WOULD be mass protests on the street calling for the government to resign. Does the lack of hundreds of thousands of people marching down O'Connell street everyday not tell you that maybe not as many people are as pissed at the government and their policies as you think?

Sure what's happened recently is a shocking revelation (police recording phone calls) but why are people are blaming this government when it has been happening for the last 30+ years?

ezra_pound

renegademaster wrote: »

april 2016 me bollix,

cowens government was gone at this stage!! the people reacted to cowen refusing to call the general elections and with one mass protest we forced change, not one bridge was burned or incident that day, Christy Moore even sung Ordinary Man and 150,000 people sang along at the top of their lungs!!

this time round we'd need to be a lot more pro-active with holding the next government to account so as to not allow rot to set in again, lets face the facts here that an unchecked government for 4 years can and does breed corruption,

the chance of not being allowed the full term by the people if the said government is up to it's eye balls in corruption should regin it in a little and if that's not enough we squeez a little harder until they get the message, mass protests drown out the minority nutters making
this possible through entirely peaceful means

The fact that you think that this governments mandate is in any way relative to cowen's just goes to show that surprise surprise you're deluded.

The people literally were dying for a change from the international embarrassment and lack of leadership while we were going down the swanny.

Uriel.

bumper234 wrote: »

But this option is already thee for the citizens of Ireland. If the people were not happy then there WOULD be mass protests on the street calling for the government to resign. Does the lack of hundreds of thousands of people marching down O'Connell street everyday not tell you that maybe not as many people are as pissed at the government and their policies as you think?

Sure what's happened recently is a shocking revelation (police recording phone calls) but why are people are blaming this government when it has been happening for the last 30+ years?

Clearly you haven't seen very latest revelations then.?

Yeah thought not...


Shatter, the night he was appointed Minister went back in time in his secret time machine and installed the recording equipment himself.


Protest. Bring down the Government. Sounds good to me. Maybe a sinn fein and ULA or whatever they call themselves these days coalition government. Free everything for everyone. Leave Europe 90% marginal taxrate for hhigh earners over 30k

What could possibly go wrong.

Short memories indeed.

COYW

jelfs wrote: »

I'll attend the protest. I want this government brought down.

What would that achieve? What are you reasons for wanting rid of the current government? What does the only realistic alternative government, FF plus whoever, have to offer us? I must be missing something because FG+Labour and FF+whoever look pretty alike to me.