Can we have peaceful, national protests yet?

jelfs

I'll attend the protest. I want this government brought down.

bumper234

jelfs wrote: »

I'll attend the protest. I want this government brought down.

And replaced with???

jelfs

Putin would be better.

jelfs

So long as it's not Fianna Fail or Labour, anyone else would be less corrupt.

oscarBravo

jelfs wrote: »

Putin would be better.

And this, boys and girls, is why we're not protesting.

bumper234

jelfs wrote: »

So long as it's not Fianna Fail or Labour, anyone else would be less corrupt.

So fine gael? A mish mash of independents? How about we revive Hitler via DNA like in Jurassic park and give him a 2nd bash at things :rolleyes:

ezra_pound

bumper234 wrote: »

So fine gael? A mish mash of independents? How about we revive Hitler via DNA like in Jurassic park and give him a 2nd bash at things :rolleyes:

How about anyone who's not in current gov? Sinn fein SWP united left greens and good old ff to satisfy the minority who want a change.

You think things are bad now with competent leadership, watch this country founder faster than biffo can down a pint at an ff fundraiser sing along.

Banjo String

ezra_pound wrote: »

How about anyone who's not in current gov? Sinn fein SWP united left greens and good old ff to satisfy the minority who want a change.

You think things are bad now with competent leadership, watch this country founder faster than biffo can down a pint at an ff fundraiser sing along.

Competent?

Updated 11.39pm

THE FORMER GARDA Commissioner Martin Callinan wrote to the Department of Justice about recordings of calls at garda stations more than two weeks ago, RTÉ has reported.

Callinan is reported to have sent a letter to the Secretary General of the department asking that the Minister of Justice be made aware of the details of the recordings.

The letter is dated 10th March 2014 and was couriered over to the department.

Tonight, a spokesperson for Minister Alan Shatter told TheJournal.ie he only received this letter this morning. The spokesperson was unable to confirm if this was before or after Callinan resigned just before 10am.

The letter, entitled “Recordings of Telephone Conversations made and retained in Garda Stations”, which has been seen by RTÉ News, says the initial recording systems were put in place in the 1980s.

Informed yesterday

A government spokesperson said Shatter was told yesterday of the details that have emerged today of phonecalls in and out of a large number of garda stations being recorded.

This is after the Taoiseach said he was told, on Sunday at 6pm.

Enda Kenny told the Dáil today that the Government had received information of tape recordings in “many garda stations” dating back to the 1980s.

He said he was made aware of the information on Sunday by the Attorney General and spent all day yesterday and last night checking the “validity and veracity of the information”.

The Government said it had learned that system had been in place “for many years” up until November of last year at “a large number of Garda stations” where “incoming and outgoing calls were taped and recorded”.

Speaking earlier this evening, Data Protection Commissioner Billy Hawkes said he had been made aware of the issue by An Garda Siochána “three or four days ago”.

Letter

Speaking on tonight’s 9 o’clock News, RTÉ Crime Correspondent Paul Reynolds, who has seen the letter, said it was three pages long and had been couriered over to the Department of Justice on 10 March.

Reynolds said that the former Commissioner’s letter states that the Attorney General was informed of the issue in November of last year.

Shatter’s spokesperson maintained this evening that the Minister was first given the letter today.

Competent indeed.

hatrickpatrick

Phoebas wrote: »

An hour ago you thought you had a duty to make Shatter go. Now you want to gauge the level of interest in a possible future campaign that might result in a protest.

Realpolitik.

How so? I personally believe we have a duty to make him go, and I'll expand that point by saying I believe we have a duty to make things happen in general. Democracy is not a spectator sport. But just because I believe that, doesn't mean others do - I want to gauge whether people agree or not, before I set in motion a protest campaign or anything like it.
To give you an analogy, would you open a business without first doing market research on the demand for whatever you would be offering?

bumper234 wrote: »

Well so far the consensus seems to be that the majority (in here) are happy with the way things are.

That's certainly not the impression I'm getting. From this thread maybe, but take a look at the "Shatter and Callinan should resign in disgrace" thread for a rather different set of opinions on how this country is being run.

bumper234 wrote: »

So fine gael? A mish mash of independents? How about we revive Hitler via DNA like in Jurassic park and give him a 2nd bash at things :rolleyes:

A mish mash of independents without a whip would be an interesting experiment. With no party line to hide behind they'd have to follow the will of the public rather than party leadership, or lose their seats. We might get a government whose policies were actually representative of what the people want for a change.

comongethappy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

We might get a government whose policies were actually representative of what the people want for a change.

Is that a recipe for success?

To deliver what the Irish voters want is: infinite spending, no tax & an aul medical card thrown in there.

Which part of mob populism delivers on tough decisions?

P_1

bumper234 wrote: »

So fine gael? A mish mash of independents? How about we revive Hitler via DNA like in Jurassic park and give him a 2nd bash at things :rolleyes:

Tír amhain. Pobail amháin. Taoiseach amháin. Has a nice ring to it alright.

We do have a bit of a problem in all seriousness though. We have a very corrupt society. None of the political parties really offer anything different and the barriers for establishing a new party are too high. Protesting doesn't work and the way the global economy is set up having a revolution will cause more trouble than it solves (although we don't face the prospect of Cameron siezeing Cobh if we did).

renegademaster

Phoebas wrote: »

And you'll get that opportunity at the next general election.
In the meantime, he is the democratically elected Minister for Justice.

april 2016 me bollix,

cowens government was gone at this stage!! the people reacted to cowen refusing to call the general elections and with one mass protest we forced change, not one bridge was burned or incident that day, Christy Moore even sung Ordinary Man and 150,000 people sang along at the top of their lungs!!

this time round we'd need to be a lot more pro-active with holding the next government to account so as to not allow rot to set in again, lets face the facts here that an unchecked government for 4 years can and does breed corruption,

the chance of not being allowed the full term by the people if the said government is up to it's eye balls in corruption should regin it in a little and if that's not enough we squeez a little harder until they get the message, mass protests drown out the minority nutters making
this possible through entirely peaceful means

Karl Stein

oscarBravo wrote: »

And this, boys and girls, is why we're not protesting.

And this, my peers, is a quite obvious attempt to stigmatize dissent.

Iwasfrozen

Karl Stein wrote: »

And this, my peers, is a quite obvious attempt to stigmatize dissent.

No attempt needed, he stigmatised himself.

comongethappy

Also, Ireland by Intl standards is not that corrupt.

I think Ireland is perceived as 17th least corrupt in the world by some international corruption index.

I'm not sure how having a more populist government automatically leads to less corruption.

FF giveaways must surely have thought us that?

Phoebas

renegademaster wrote: »

april 2016 me bollix,

cowens government was gone at this stage!! the people reacted to cowen refusing to call the general elections and with one mass protest we forced change, not one bridge was burned or incident that day, Christy Moore even sung Ordinary Man and 150,000 people sang along at the top of their lungs!!

At this stage of what?

We are infinitely better off now than we were when the last government fell. I swear, some people have the shortest memories.

bumper234

renegademaster wrote: »

april 2016 me bollix,

cowens government was gone at this stage!! the people reacted to cowen refusing to call the general elections and with one mass protest we forced change, not one bridge was burned or incident that day, Christy Moore even sung Ordinary Man and 150,000 people sang along at the top of their lungs!!

this time round we'd need to be a lot more pro-active with holding the next government to account so as to not allow rot to set in again, lets face the facts here that an unchecked government for 4 years can and does breed corruption,

the chance of not being allowed the full term by the people if the said government is up to it's eye balls in corruption should regin it in a little and if that's not enough we squeez a little harder until they get the message, mass protests drown out the minority nutters making
this possible through entirely peaceful means

But this option is already there for the citizens of Ireland. If the people were not happy then there WOULD be mass protests on the street calling for the government to resign. Does the lack of hundreds of thousands of people marching down O'Connell street everyday not tell you that maybe not as many people are as pissed at the government and their policies as you think?

Sure what's happened recently is a shocking revelation (police recording phone calls) but why are people are blaming this government when it has been happening for the last 30+ years?

ezra_pound

renegademaster wrote: »

april 2016 me bollix,

cowens government was gone at this stage!! the people reacted to cowen refusing to call the general elections and with one mass protest we forced change, not one bridge was burned or incident that day, Christy Moore even sung Ordinary Man and 150,000 people sang along at the top of their lungs!!

this time round we'd need to be a lot more pro-active with holding the next government to account so as to not allow rot to set in again, lets face the facts here that an unchecked government for 4 years can and does breed corruption,

the chance of not being allowed the full term by the people if the said government is up to it's eye balls in corruption should regin it in a little and if that's not enough we squeez a little harder until they get the message, mass protests drown out the minority nutters making
this possible through entirely peaceful means

The fact that you think that this governments mandate is in any way relative to cowen's just goes to show that surprise surprise you're deluded.

The people literally were dying for a change from the international embarrassment and lack of leadership while we were going down the swanny.

Uriel.

bumper234 wrote: »

But this option is already thee for the citizens of Ireland. If the people were not happy then there WOULD be mass protests on the street calling for the government to resign. Does the lack of hundreds of thousands of people marching down O'Connell street everyday not tell you that maybe not as many people are as pissed at the government and their policies as you think?

Sure what's happened recently is a shocking revelation (police recording phone calls) but why are people are blaming this government when it has been happening for the last 30+ years?

Clearly you haven't seen very latest revelations then.?

Yeah thought not...


Shatter, the night he was appointed Minister went back in time in his secret time machine and installed the recording equipment himself.


Protest. Bring down the Government. Sounds good to me. Maybe a sinn fein and ULA or whatever they call themselves these days coalition government. Free everything for everyone. Leave Europe 90% marginal taxrate for hhigh earners over 30k

What could possibly go wrong.

Short memories indeed.

COYW

jelfs wrote: »

I'll attend the protest. I want this government brought down.

What would that achieve? What are you reasons for wanting rid of the current government? What does the only realistic alternative government, FF plus whoever, have to offer us? I must be missing something because FG+Labour and FF+whoever look pretty alike to me.

oscarBravo

Karl Stein wrote: »

And this, my peers, is a quite obvious attempt to stigmatize dissent.

So you would, in fact, prefer to have our country run by Vladimir Putin than by Enda Kenny?

hatrickpatrick

Bringing down the government won't change anything. It's the structure of our establishment that's the problem, not the people we put in it.
Changing the petrol won't help if the engine itself is bollocksed. We need a new engine.

comongethappy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Bringing down the government won't change anything. It's the structure of our establishment that's the problem, not the people we put in it.
Changing the petrol won't help if the engine itself is bollocksed. We need a new engine.

What is your solution?

hatrickpatrick

comongethappy wrote: »

What is your solution?

Standing orders need to be changed to move away from party line based politics and give independents more power in the Dail. Very stringent rules need to be introduced regarding shenanigans (since the word "corruption" is objected to by some ere outside a very narrow definition) of any kind - basically standards in public office need to be much, much higher.

As I've said before, Shatter's position shouldn't even be in question now, because his releasing of confidential information on Wallace should have resulted in his immediate removal from the DOJ. In any decent democracy it would have. There needs to be asolute zero tolerance to any misbehaviour of this sort whatsoever.

The right of recall should also be introduced as a matter of urgency. This culture of "great, I got a seat, now I can go back on every word I said before the election and there's nothing anyone can do about it for five years" must end ASAP.

These are just off the top of my head, I'm on my iPhone on a train at the moment so can't type anything too elaborate I'll post something more detailed when I get home, but how do you react in principle to the proposals here?
Standing order reform to place less emphasis on party politics, stringent laws against any kind f dodgy behaviour while in office, the right for the public to recall politicians at any time in between enteral elections, and generally far more democratic accountability.

Uriel.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Standing orders need to be changed to move away from party line based politics and give independents more power in the Dail. Very stringent rules need to be introduced regarding shenanigans (since the word "corruption" is objected to by some ere outside a very narrow definition) of any kind - basically standards in public office need to be much, much higher.

As I've said before, Shatter's position shouldn't even be in question now, because his releasing of confidential information on Wallace should have resulted in his immediate removal from the DOJ. In any decent democracy it would have. There needs to be asolute zero tolerance to any misbehaviour of this sort whatsoever.

The right of recall should also be introduced as a matter of urgency. This culture of "great, I got a seat, now I can go back on every word I said before the election and there's nothing anyone can do about it for five years" must end ASAP.

These are just off the top of my head, I'm on my iPhone on a train at the moment so can't type anything too elaborate I'll post something more detailed when I get home, but how do you react in principle to the proposals here?
Standing order reform to place less emphasis on party politics, stringent laws against any kind f dodgy behaviour while in office, the right for the public to recall politicians at any time in between enteral elections, and generally far more democratic accountability.

The right to recall would create a far too unstable Government and Parliament in my view and would only serve to damage the country in the long run. There has to be some acceptance that priorities change, other issues arise, unforeseen difficulties arise and resource constraints lead to "promises" being delay or watered down. Additionally, we are terrified to give Government too much power, and coupled with poor choice, we are left with coalitions, that by their very nature must compromise on actions and objectives.

Are there not stringent rules for public office holders already? SIPO, and general laws etc. What laws would you develop that are not already in place and that wouldn't stymie effective governance?


Standing order reform requires a very detailed analysis, and I am not sure that having a free for all voting with no party lines is stepping in the right direction. That's not the say the current system is fit for purpose either.

The one monumental shift required is how we govern and and elect representatives.

Local Government should be much more autonomous and should take on greater responsibility for managing local issues, including large transport and infrastructure programs. They should also have better control over budget and expenditure (and income).

Are legislature should be elected on a national basis to act as policy makers/developers and not be getting caught up in local politics and pot hole filling. To facilitate some of the changes, the Seanad needs to go completely.

I would also favour a directly elected President or Taoiseach, elected by all of the people to serve as head of the State (e.g. like the USA) and the other office abolished.

The 3 arms of the State would then be Dáil, Taoiseach/President, Judiciary and with a stronger local government. Won't ever happen though.

martingriff

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Is it not entirely reasonable to try to gauge the level of interest in a new campaign before one sets it in motion?

But you have no campain your talking in general terms here about this and that iy just like those stupid occupy movements. To gage reaction you need to have a movement a set of ideals a plan a facebook page or something like that. You have given none of those yet.

By the use of the word some of us and all that it sounds like there is a movment or something if so what is it where is it. You are sounding like the keyboard warrior at the moment

sarumite

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

As I've said before, Shatter's position shouldn't even be in question now, because his releasing of confidential information on Wallace should have resulted in his immediate removal from the DOJ. In any decent democracy it would have. There needs to be asolute zero tolerance to any misbehaviour of this sort whatsoever.

In a decent democracy Wallace would have been turfed out long before Shatter could have released the information about him.

Karl Stein

oscarBravo wrote: »

So you would, in fact, prefer to have our country run by Vladimir Putin than by Enda Kenny?

In what way does this false dichotomy you've conjured, as if from thin air, relate to my comment?

Banjo String

sarumite wrote: »

In a decent democracy Wallace would have been turfed out long before Shatter could have released the information about him.

Why?

sarumite

Banjo String wrote: »

Why?

Because I don't hold Wallace to a lower standard than everyone else. A country cannot be run if people are knowingly and willfully cheating the general public out of taxes.