Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

Yes guilty by backing separatists with the range to hit a passenger plane. Something that they should not have had.

Can you explain why these so-called "separatists" weren't trying to separate from Ukraine before the coup?

Surely they are an anti-coup movement?

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

Many of the Russian public appear to view Russia as responsible as they gathered outside of the Dutch embassy.

Your link gives no indication of what Russian people are thinking beyond a tiny handful of ex pats. Not that it actually effects the reality of the event in the slightest, unless they are privy to some inside information that nobody else is.

So rather than tell us what "many of the Russian public" think your link tells us what a tiny minority of Russian emigrant, conspiracy theorists think.

Brown Bomber

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

(far more likely to be Russian army regulars and state sponsored neo-Nazi skinhead goons than actual residents of eastern Ukraine)

There is turning reality on it's head and then there is this - The neo-Nazis are the National Guard, assimiliated in the government who are the enemies of the anti-coup militias.

robindch

Brown Bomber wrote: »

[...] turning reality on it's head [...]

You said it yourself :rolleyes:

robindch

The Red Cross has privately assessed that the conflict in East Ukraine now constitutes a "war", meaning that the way is now open to war crimes prosecutions.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/22/us-ukraine-crisis-warcrimes-idUSKBN0FR0V920140722

Reuters wrote:

(Reuters) - The Red Cross has made a confidential legal assessment that Ukraine is officially in a war, Western diplomats and officials say, opening the door to possible war crimes prosecutions, including over the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH-17. "Clearly it's an international conflict and therefore this is most probably a war crime," one Western diplomat in Geneva told Reuters.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is the guardian of the Geneva Conventions setting down the rules of war, and as such is considered a reference in the United Nations deciding when violence has evolved into an armed conflict. "Within the U.N. system, it's the ICRC that makes that determination. They are the gate keepers of international humanitarian law," said one U.N. source.

The ICRC has not made any public statement - seeking not to offend either Ukraine or Russia by calling it a civil war or a case of foreign aggression - but it has done so privately and informed the parties to the conflict, sources told Reuters. "The qualification has been shared bilaterally and confidentially," ICRC spokeswoman Anastasia Isyuk told Reuters on Friday. "We do not discuss it publicly."

The designation as a war - either international or civil - changes the game legally, because it turns both sides into combatants with equal liability for war crimes, which have no statute of limitations and cannot be absolved by an amnesty. Suspects may also be arrested abroad, since some countries apply "universal jurisdiction" to war crimes.

Without the designation, Ukrainian government forces would be responsible for protecting civilians and infrastructure under international human rights law, while separatists would only be liable under Ukraine's criminal laws. "It changes their accountability on the international stage," said Andrew Clapham, director of the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights. "This makes individuals more likely to be prosecuted for war crimes."

Dutch prosecutors have opened an investigation into the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17 on suspicion of murder, war crimes and intentionally downing an airliner, a spokesman said on Monday. Based on the Law on International Crimes, the Netherlands can prosecute any individual who committed a war crime against a Dutch citizen. The 298 people who were killed when the plane was downed over Ukraine included 193 Dutch citizens.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said in May that the country had collapsed into civil war, while Ukraine regards the conflict as a war involving Russian aggression.

recedite

The Red Cross has made a confidential legal assessment that Ukraine is officially in a war.....Russian President Vladimir Putin said in May that the country had collapsed into civil war.

Great, but I think that was pretty obvious.
Maybe now somebody will organise a peacekeeping/peace enforcing force. I doubt it will be Putin though, after the amount of international condemnation he got for sending in a few troops to keep the beligerents separated in Crimea.
Banky Moon of the UN will continue with his occasional "appeals for peace" in Ukraine and Gaza.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

after the amount of international condemnation he got for sending in a few troops to keep the beligerents separated in Crimea.

Well, in all fairness, there weren't any belligerents in Crimea until he invaded the place.

So it's not hard to understand why people might be a little reluctant to have more of Putin's little green tourists helping "keep the peace".

recedite

In all fairness, they prevented a civil war from erupting in that particular region, at least.

Out of curiosity, if a joint Nato/Russian force invaded East Ukraine, confined all the local militants to barracks, declared martial law, and held a referendum on its future, would you be happy with the outcome? Or would it be invalid because of the presence of green uniformed men and martial law?
Not that chalk and cheese are ever likely to mix, but in theory?

jimeryan22

Brittish intelligence now coming out saying recordings of seperatists talking about tampering with evidence...
Let's fecking hear it then brittish intelligence... Don't just talk about it..

robindch

recedite wrote:

Not that chalk and cheese are ever likely to mix, but in theory?

I'd be happy if Putin stopped supporting gunmen in East Ukraine and would agree to repatriate the Russian citizens who are leading the war there. I'm pretty sure that this is all that would be needed to restore peace at the drop of a hat - as it's happened in the cities which the gunmen have retreated from.

I'm also happy for any free and fair, internationally-observed, constitutional referendum to take place so that the people of Ukraine can decide their future for themselves.

recedite wrote: »

In all fairness, they prevented a civil war from erupting in that particular region, at least.

I don't want to be obtuse here, but until February, there were no unsolvable problems in Crimea, at least there weren't until Putin invaded, held a fake referendum, stole the place on the back of an hysterical media campaign of fear and hatred.

I really don't know what you're talking about when you refer to Puting having "prevented a civil war" since he was, in fact, the guy who attempted to start one.

jimeryan22

There's your evidence

http://youtu.be/oQRvINebeok

recedite

robindch wrote: »

I'm also happy for any free and fair, internationally-observed, constitutional referendum to take place so that the people of Ukraine can decide their future for themselves.

And there's the rub. Its like saying to Scotland, we would let you have a referendum for self-determination if the British constitution allowed it (but unfortunately it doesn't unless modified) and if all the British people can vote.
England, Wales and N. Ireland obviously, and sure why not Gibraltar and the Falklands too, they'll need to vote because it affects them too. That should give us a nice majority.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

until February, there were no unsolvable problems in Crimea..

Nothing that couldn't be sorted out with a few air strikes and artillery bombardments, eh?

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Its like saying to Scotland, we would let you have a referendum for self-determination if the British constitution allowed it (but unfortunately it doesn't unless modified) and if all the British people can vote.

In Ukraine, there is a constitutional process by which regions can secede. This process can be followed. Or the parliament can submit and approve a new constitution and new rules and those can be followed. Are you saying that the rule of law should be ignored?

recedite wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

until February, there were no unsolvable problems in Crimea..

Nothing that couldn't be sorted out with a few air strikes and artillery bombardments, eh?

I have no idea what you're referring to.

Sulla Felix

robindch wrote: »

In Ukraine, there is a constitutional process by which regions can secede. This process can be followed. Or the parliament can submit and approve a new constitution and new rules and those can be followed. Are you saying that the rule of law should be ignored?

I've never particularly liked appeals to law. Plenty of laws are bad, or reprehensible, something this forum in particular takes the trouble to point out when we see them.
As for the particular idea that a group shouldn't secede without the acquiescence of the rest of the country, we ignored it for Kosovo. Belgrade wasn't too happy about that if I remember correctly. Nor was London when the Irish, ha, and the Americans illegally seceded.
The cause of the Basques and Chechnyans would be dear to my heart, Chechnya in particular being relevant here and I'd hate for their future efforts to continue to be stymied by such logic.
All this presupposes, it should go without saying, a fair and independent referendum in the territory, which the Crimean referendum was not, but the principle is sound I believe. Any other solution is just the exercise of force by a belligerent.

oscarBravo

Sulla Felix wrote: »

I've never particularly liked appeals to law. Plenty of laws are bad, or reprehensible, something this forum in particular takes the trouble to point out when we see them.

When the alternative to an appeal to law is an appeal to violence, I'll generally take my chances with even a bad law.

stevejazzx

Getting away from MH17 for the moment -

Robins thinking with regard this current conflict and the annexation of Crimea seems to be steadfastly in line with western propaganda on the issue.
And while he is generally correct in his assessment on most parts, in particular those regarding Russia's ills, he leaves no room whatsoever for apportioning blame towards American interference or by acknowledging the legitimate concerns Russia had / have concerning their borders.

John McCain visited Ukraine to support rebels (shard the platform to with ultra fascists, neo-nazi Svoboda party as did Victoria Nuland (who made time to hand out cookies) the same Nuland who can be heard here discussing what she thinks should be the new political assembly in Ukraine, and how the US and UN can "glue this thing" (ie her proposal of Yatsenyuk) - she finishes by saying that Joe Biden (whose son sits on the board of Ukrainian gas company Burisma) was willing to get behind it also. The tape shows absolute, unquestionable American interference in the Ukrainian political system.
Not only this but the US has been for many years supporting a Ukrainian revolution covertly through NGO's. Here's just one example

The US is accused of paying protesters
The US spent 65m aiding groups around the time of and leading up to the Orange Revolution


So with, what is unquestionable proof (dare I use the word) that the US is balls deep in Ukrainian interference for the last 15 years (at least) some continue to blithely reissue the standard US party line.

I appreciate and acknowledge the evils of modern Russia under Putin and I don't for second defend or excuse them - but it's not black and white - he's not the lone bad guy - he is being (out)played everyday by vastly superior western propaganda. There is no doubt that US wants to extend it's so called sphere of influence in Russia's backyard; compete with its oil and gas monopolies and maybe even have a war with Russia if that's what it takes. A brief look at the history of the CIA in South America and the Middle east shows that they have doing exactly the same thing since the end of WW2.

Sulla Felix

oscarBravo wrote: »

When the alternative to an appeal to law is an appeal to violence, I'll generally take my chances with even a bad law.

So you think that Chechnya shouldn't have the right to secede from Russia?

oscarBravo

Sulla Felix wrote: »

So you think that Chechnya shouldn't have the right to secede from Russia?

I'm fairly certain I didn't say that.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

I have no idea what you're referring to.

I am referring to the "bomb them into submission" tactic being pursued by the Kiev regime in order to solve the problem of wrong nationalism among people in the east.
Their "National Guard" of neo-fascists which is almost exclusively recruited in western regions have raised the national flag in Sloviansk, but only after reducing it to rubble. Now they have moved on to Luhansk and Donetsk.

According to OSCE observers;

There was shelling of Luhansk city on 18 and 19 July. On 19 July, the SMM went to a city-centre location, where they observed a large crater beside a bus stop. Shattered windows and shrapnel fragments in the walls of two nearby six-storey buildings were seen, and blood and body parts along the pavement and road. The same day, the SMM observed five houses reduced to rubble on the outskirts of the city. The SMM observed the remains of a rocket of an indeterminable type at the scene.
The SMM received casualty figures from two sources. The head of the local emergency services department in Luhansk city informed the SMM on 19 July that 20 people had been killed and 150 injured in Luhansk city on 17 and 18 July. The head of the city morgue informed the SMM on 19 July that 29 people had been killed on 18 and 19 July. He said five of the victims were women, and all but one were civilians. At the morgue, the SMM saw a man and a woman carrying a small, child-sized, coffin.

Once a town is "recaptured" it is also necessary to import "civilian" policemen with the correct attitude to maintain law and order;

In the Chernivtsi region, the SMM met on 19 July the recently-appointed police chief of Hyboka district, who said that seven of the 70 police officers in the district had volunteered for duty in the east. The SMM has been informed that police ranks in Sloviansk in the Donetsk region are being filled by officers from all across Ukraine.

source

The whole process makes the "policing" or burning of Cork by the Black & Tans look benevolent.

Corkfeen

One of the Russian separatist leaders has confirmed they were in possession of BUK that they received from Russia.

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723?utm_source=twitter

recedite

If his account is true, it also confirms the presence of Ukrainian jet(s) in the vicinity at the time, either using the passenger plane as cover for their approach, or deliberately drawing fire onto it.

Turtwig

Or you know just being in the vicinity. Doubt many people from that culture would be able to comfortably draw an innocent passenger jet into the firing line. I know I wouldn't. Jesus, if I even remotely felt I was responsible for a missile hitting a passenger jet I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I'd say most other people are the same.

Mardy Bum

Turtwig wrote: »

Or you know just being in the vicinity. Doubt many people from that culture would be able to comfortably draw an innocent passenger jet into the firing line. I know I wouldn't. Jesus, if I even remotely felt I was responsible for a missile hitting a passenger jet I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I'd say most other people are the same.

Looking at some of the footage of the separatists, I wouldn't describe them as a most people.

jimeryan22

Bbc article... For all you there's no nazis in Ukraine.. Someone begs to differ..

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

If his account is true, it also confirms the presence of Ukrainian jet(s) in the vicinity at the time, either using the passenger plane as cover for their approach, or deliberately drawing fire onto it.

How does an airliner at 33,000 feet provide 'cover' to a military plane at half that, or less?

Corkfeen

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Bbc article... For all you there's no nazis in Ukraine.. Someone begs to differ..

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329

Who said there was no nazis in Ukraine? I think most are aware of the issue of fascism in Ukraine.

robindch

Corkfeen wrote: »

Who said there was no nazis in Ukraine?

No one did.

Corkfeen wrote: »

I think most are aware of the issue of fascism in Ukraine.

The far right exists in Ukraine as it does in just about every other European country. It's difficult to assess the exact level of support as it varies according to the polling method, the election and so on, but it's certainly small.

In the presidential election a few weeks back, more people (2.25%) voted for Vadim Rabinovich, a famously jewish business mogul, than voted for the two far-right win parties - Right Sektor and Svoboda -- managed between them (1.86%). Svoboda holds 36 out of 450 seats in the national parliament. The current 19-member cabinet has seven independents, six from the Fatherland party, two from the Freedom Party, three members whose alignment I haven't been able to establish and Oleksandr Sych, the only member of Svobonda. FWIW, Sych, has claimed that his views are right wing, but not Nazi and from a quick read of them some time ago, I tend to think that while they're certainly far-right, they align more with UKIP than Hitler.

It is manifestly false to suggest that the administration in Kiev is in any way run by Nazi's, or contains any significant Nazi power base, as Russian state-controlled media has been constantly screaming over the last six months.

BTW, I spoke with a few Svoboda people last February in Kiev. Yes, they're a fairly unpleasant lot, but the anger I saw was directed solely at Yanukovich and his policies.

stevejazzx

robindch wrote: »

No one did.The far right exists in Ukraine as it does in just about every other European country. It's difficult to assess the exact level of support as it varies according to the polling method, the election and so on, but it's certainly small.

In the presidential election a few weeks back, more people (2.25%) voted for Vadim Rabinovich, a famously jewish business mogul, than voted for the two far-right win parties - Right Sektor and Svoboda -- managed between them (1.86%). Svoboda holds 36 out of 450 seats in the national parliament. The current 19-member cabinet has seven independents, six from the Fatherland party, two from the Freedom Party, three members whose alignment I haven't been able to establish and Oleksandr Sych, the only member of Svobonda.








It is manifestly false to suggest that the administration in Kiev is in any way run by Nazi's, or contains any significant Nazi power base, as Russian state-controlled media has been constantly screaming over the last six months.

BTW, I spoke with a few Svoboda people last February in Kiev. Yes, they're a fairly unpleasant lot, but the anger I saw was directed solely at Yanukovich and his policies.

That's a fairly nice way of representing Robin
In the interim government in Ukraine they had member who was deputy Prime Minister and as one deputy of defense.

And looking at these figures Robin they awould appear to be vastly more well represented and influential than you described in your post

FWIW, Sych, has claimed that his views are right wing, but not Nazi and from a quick read of them some time ago, I tend to think that while they're certainly far-right, they align more with UKIP than Hitler.

This is just wrong - their historic figurehead is Stephan Bandera
They have a definitive history of of identifying as Nazi

Their policies are bananas; ultra nationalist nonsense; come on Robin!

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How does an airliner at 33,000 feet provide 'cover' to a military plane at half that, or less?

How do you know the altitude of the warplane?
Are you familiar enough with the radar screen of a BUK missile launcher to definitively say that two radar blips at the same co-ordinates but different altitudes are easily discernible?